What exactly is an out of box build?

[Harry P.]

There have to be logical compromises somewhere, & the way I've descrived it has became somewhat of a "standard" for most model car contests. No matter how hard the organizers try, a model contest can't be "all things to all modelers or accomodate every single modeler's niche. It's up to the modeler to decide if they want to participate based on the contests rules & classes or not.

I understand that the way things are now are the "standard"... I was just wondering how that particular standard came to be, and what options people who don't build in the "popular" scales might have as far as equal opportunity to compete in any given contest. Not many, apparently.

No need to get all emotional and defensive on me there, Mark. I'm just asking perfectly logical questions. Don't worry... I'm not going to try and crash any of your contests.

[Harry P.]

I know in my former club's show, the Ohio Valley Scale Modelers, most if not all of our classes were divided by subject, not scale.

That makes sense to me. It's more logical to break down a contest by subject or category rather than the size of the entry, IMO.

(Note to Bluesman Mark: That was strictly my opinion, not an attempt to reorganize your way of thinking. )

[Harry P.]

I can't speak for all contests, but the ones I have been (and still am) involved in administering have the same basic experience: "other" scale entries represent only a very small percentage of the contest entries, and often consist of a very limited type of vehicle. For example, the COPPERSTATE MODEL CAR CHAMPIONSHIP usually had 300-400 entries, of which only 8 to 12 were "other" scale. We had 29 classes for 1/24-1/25 models and two "other" scale classes ("Large Scale" - 1/20th and larger - and "Small Scale" - 1/32nd and smaller). With only a handful of "other" scale entries, we could not justify having 29 individual classes for each scale breakdown. And, often the "other" scale entries were submitted by only a couple of builders.

In short, the demographics just didn't support handling it any other way.

And, human nature being what it is, we found way too much resistance to the idea of combining all scales ... entrants screamed like mashed cats if you suggested their 1/25 curbside would be judged against a Big Deuce. Don't know why, but it just happened. However, we never had any complaints about the system we used.

Many times either or both the "Small Scale" class and "Large Scale" class went unpopulated. But we always kept the classes on our agenda so as to support any builders who showed up. We would not cancel or discontinue a class unless it went three years without a single entry.

And, a side note: From year to year the population of entries in certain classes was a changing dynamic. For example: one year the "Early Street Rod" class might have dozens of entries and be hotly contested while the "NASCAR" class might have only one or two entries and we were unable to present all the class awards. The next year, the "Early Street Rod" class might be a ghost town while the "NASCAR" class sported more than a dozen entries. Ah, yes. Human nature again!

Interesting. Apparently you guys went out of your way to be inclusive, but the participation in the "other" scales just wasn't there.

Your explanation makes sense. And yeah, there's always that "human nature" thing to deal with...

For some reason, people seem to think that judging models of different scales (but of the same subject) is somehow inherently unfair, with the big-scale model holding an advantage. But aside from maybe Box Stock or OOB, a large-scale kit doesn't have any particular advantage. If anything, a large-scale builder is at a disadvantage, as the aftermarket for 1/8 scale is practically non-existent compared to the incredible variety of stuff available in 1/24-1/25 scale.

[Chuck Most]

Let's be reasonable here. In 99.5% of model kits, paint is not included either, but that is allowed! As it should be! Ditto on BMF.... it is now accepted in the hobby as THE way of adding chrome trim.

Anything else... flocking, ignition wires, engine swaps... that just circumvents the intent of the category.

Not if you're into the 'promo look'!

[Harry P.]

It often doesn't work, & given the sheer numbers of the entires in the more popular scales, the larger & smaller scales are admittedly marginalized, but in this case, the majority does hold sway.

"Majority Rules" is a concept I believe in.

If the big and small scale guys are at a disadvantage at contests, I guess that's just the way it is.

[Harry P.]

The "Degree of Difficulty" system makes a lot of sense, takes away the arbitrary breakdowns according to size, and truly "levels the playing field" for every entrant, regardless of subject matter or scale he/she prefers to build in.

Maybe a hybrid: Degree of Difficulty, but also a very few broad category breakdowns: Automobile, Truck, Motorcycle, and maybe "Other."

Add Diorama, Kids/Junior Class, Best Auto, Best Truck, Best Motorcycle and Best of Show... and you have all bases covered.

Why is such a logical and sensible system not the "standard" at most contests?

[Guest Johnny]

Oh no! Not the big red letters!!!

Harry, just like in 1:1 contests and shows it is virtually impossible to make everyone happy. Someone is always going to feel left out or slighted in one way or another! Ids there some bias towards on scale over another? probably to some extent. Club sponsored events just like 1:1 only hold credibility if the judging comes from outside and even then locals still tend have an advantage especially if allowed to signify that they belong to the local club on their display!

That is why in 1:1 if a club sponsors a show they usually do not have judged entries from their own club!

The few car or model shows I have displayed work at were solely just to show my work and never go in with expectation of winning anything. I just go for the show and to be around others that enjoy the same hobby!

[Harry P.]

Oh no! Not the big red letters!!!

Yeah, I got quite the beatdown today...

[curt raitz]

"Majority Rules" is a concept I believe in.

If the big and small scale guys are at a disadvantage at contests, I guess that's just the way it is.

Contrare (sp)...I see it as though the big and small guyz have an advantage...less competition

but if they throw their entries in the OOB, they then fall under the OOB guidelines for that particular contest

[Chuck Most]

Put simply, an out of box build is...

incredibly boring!

[Harry P.]

Contrare (sp)...I see it as though the big and small guyz have an advantage...less competition

but if they throw their entries in the OOB, they then fall under the OOB guidelines for that particular contest

I guess my point is... all the big scale models are lumped together into one "catch-all" class... they don't get to compete the same way that 1/24 and 1/25 scale models do... in separate categories. It's almost like a separate contest... the "regular" models all competing in the various classes, with awards in each class or category, and the big guys being forced to all compete in only one class. They are forced to compete differently than all the other ("normal" scale) entries.

[curt raitz]

I see what you mean Harry...it is unfair in that regard

It just seems to be a numbers thing, not enough big and little scale entries participating in contests to support multi-catagories for them

[Harry P.]

I see what you mean Harry...it is unfair in that regard

It just seems to be a numbers thing, not enough big and little scale entries participating in contests to support multi-catagories for them

I agree, the numbers aren't there for the big scale guys... which is exactly why I like the "Degree of Difficulty" system that Mark described. Breaking down the entries by degree of difficulty rather than what size they happen to be makes sense to me. Of course, a contest judged on Degree of Difficulty rather than "Best Custom" and "Best Late-Model This" and "Best Open-Wheel that" requires judges who know the judging standards well and can apply the standards fairly and consistently to any model, regardless of scale or subject. That unbiased consistency applied equally to all entries might be a lot to ask of the judges.

The upside, though, would be a contest that was actually more of a true judge of modeling skill and less of a simple popularity contest.

[Harry P.]

Out of the Box puts your basic building skills to the test; there's no place to hide behind a ton of aftermarket jewelry, a fancy paint job or scratchbuilding. It's pure model building skill, and in that regard it can be a tougher category to compete in than most others.

[tabsscale1]

Here are the rules we use for our contest. these work out great and if you don't have the instructions it has to be in another class.

OUT OF BOX

Models must be displayed with the instruction sheet and must be built with parts supplied in the kit. No parts should be left off unless listed as an option in the instructions. Removal of parting lines, filling sink marks and holes, rechroming of parts are allowed. Design flaws may not be corrected. Carpet materials, decals and foil from any source may be used.

[MILD]

Wow- I certainly didn't expect this thread to stir up the conversation that it did.

I'm almost embarrassed to say that the question purely stemmed from me trying to decide whether to drill the chassis rail and use tubing for the exhaust on my Black Widow! I'm not even looking to enter it into a contest but just making sure I've got my head around the terminology

Edited October 1, 2010 by MILD

[Harry P.]

Wow- I certainly didn't expect this thread to stir up the concersation that it did.

I'm almost embarrassed to say that the question purely stemmed from me trying to decide whether to drill the chassis rail and use tubing for the exhaust on my Black Widow! I'm not even looking to enter it into a contest but just making sure I've got my head around the terminology

You never know where a particular topic might wind up...

No harm done, though. A lot of interesting posts were made regarding OOB and contest judging in general. Hey, it's a model car discussion board... so we discussed...

[MILD]

Hahaha. It's all good lads.

[Mike Kucaba]

Cool discussion.... and then he said " what about curbside" or "slammer".... <G>

[Harry P.]

Cool discussion.... and then he said " what about curbside" or "slammer".... <G>

What are you trying to do, start trouble???

[MILD]

To chip in my two cents, the only show I've been to actually broke it down into classes rather than scales. If I remember correctly it was civil vehicles, civil competition vehicles and heavy civilian vehicles. The show ran from armour through to wargaming so it was quite diverse.

Only problem I saw was all the 1:25 muscle cars competing against a scratch built wooden Model T that looked 1:8th or thereabouts. A very, very different type of craftsmanship.

[The Modeling Hermit]

I could never compete in this category. I just can't seem to stay out of the parts bins. LOL

[Guest Johnny]

Harry! I have seen being the odd man out work in favor of the builder!

A contest at a dime store years back where the customers voted on the entries! Open contest with no classes!

Lots of great looking builds (excluding mine:rolleyes: ) almost all 1/24 and 1/25 with the exception of 2 1/8 scale and 1 1/43 scale! The people that were pasing by looking were all awed by the 1/8 Big T and the 1/8 XKE and they really made a fuss over the 1/43 Barracuda!

1st place - 1/43 Barracuda 211 votes

2nd place - 1/8 Big T 97 votes

3rd place - 1/25 61 Ranchero (mine) 48 votes

4th place - 1/8 XKE 29 votes

5th place - 1/24 70 Chevelle 10 votes (I believe it was the nicest build there)

everything else was 5 and under (30+ more cars)

But this was as I said a general public vote by people that probably have never ever judged anything in their life!

But it does show how something out of the ordinary can garner a lot more attention which in real judging could be either a good(grabbed the attention of judges) or bad(more heavily scrutinized) thing!