Opinion Please --- Re Customs in Contests...

[bigphoto]

I can speak from experience as a Head Judge for several years at the Kalamazoo AirZoo contest that in each catagory we had an award for best OOTB but in order to be considered for OOTB the model must be accompanied by the instruction sheet. Models in any given catagory are generally considered to depict a particular 1:1 subject so that is why one might see a an OOTB of the Revell Merc and one that someone went all out on.

Just my .02 pennies!

[Guest]

If the '49 Mercury is built box stock i.e. no wires,flocking photo-etch etc. then it should go in the box stock category. If it has had extensive detailing done,it should go in the custom category regardless of whether or not the builder did anything additional to the body. It is,after all, a custom model. No one competing is going to put a box stock '49 Mercury up against detailed builds. You also can't put a detailed '49 Mercury in the box stock category. This just happens to be a kit that can fit into either category easily. I can't recall ever seeing a '49 Mercury in the custom class that had not had something additional done to it by the builder.

[Darin Bastedo]

Is this a custom?

How about this?

Or this...

These have all been "Customized" with "Custom" paint, If I built a model of one of these would it not belong in the custom class? In the case of the bottom one I would have to Un-chop the kit to build it. In the case of the top one...

I had to modify a sedan into a stock nomad to build a replica. would that not qualify as custom bodywork in a contest?

[Harry P.]

If I ran a contest, I'd have a list of specific rules drawn up for each class, describing what exactly is expected of a model in each class, and I would make sure all entrants received a copy of those rules BEFORE they entered their model in the class of their choice. And I would make sure the judges had a complete understanding of those rules as well.

Then I would leave it up to the contestants to enter their model in the correct category, and leave it up to the judges to disqualify any models entered in the wrong class.

As long as the rules are made clear to both entrants and judges up front, there can be no crying if anyone's model gets disqualified for being entered in the wrong class. To me, a big part of the problem regarding the whole idea of what should be considered what, what should be entered where, etc., is due to sloppiness on the contest promoter's part.

[LoneWolf15]

Although it has custom body work , you said it yourself , Darin , it's a replica ! Replica stock , street machine , yes , custom , no !

[Darin Bastedo]

Although it has custom body work , you said it yourself , Darin , it's a replica ! Replica stock , street machine , yes , custom , no !

so Watson's 58 T-bird isn't a custom?

[LoneWolf15]

Harry ,

You are correct ! Many contests are very specific as to what is allowed / required for the classes . I have seen builds passed over for being placed in the wrong category . Some , for example , being placed in the pro street category without having treaded tires .

Do I agree ? Nope ? Is it the rules ? Yep ! Therefore , one must adhere to the rules or suffer the consequences !

[Harry P.]

Harry ,

You are correct ! Many contests are very specific as to what is allowed / required for the classes . I have seen builds passed over for being placed in the wrong category . Some , for example , being placed in the pro street category without having treaded tires .

Do I agree ? Nope ? Is it the rules ? Yep ! Therefore , one must adhere to the rules or suffer the consequences !

Like I said... as long as the rules are clear and understood before entry, whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant. At least you know that THAT contest is going to be run under THAT set of rules... and that's fair to all.

[LoneWolf15]

Darin ,

Not familiar with the T- bird , does it have body mods ? It definitely has a custom paint job ! Given the time period , and it appears to have a lowered suspension , I'd say yes !

By the way , love your work on the Nomad !

[Ramfins59]

so Watson's 58 T-bird isn't a custom?

Darin, Watson's T-Bird you pictured IS a Custom... aside from the multi-colored scalloped paint job, it has a modified grille, bullets on the bumper, dummy spots, lake pipes, and custom hubcaps, plus whatever chaanges he made to the taillights, etc.. While it is a mild custom, it is a custom.

[LoneWolf15]

Harry ,

No argument from me ! Difference being , I read the rules , others ? Weellllll evidently not !

While we're on this subject ..... Here is one of my pet peeves ! The curbside category .

Some shows insist that there will be no motor , exhaust , frame detail , etc ! Now , if you look at a vehicle sitting at the curb , in a lot , etc , and you bend down to look , all of the aforementioned are visible , correct ?

As far as I'm concerned , a true curbside has everything but an open hood ! Es Verdad ?

[Darin Bastedo]

Darin ,

Not familiar with the T- bird , does it have body mods ? It definitely has a custom paint job ! Given the time period , and it appears to have a lowered suspension , I'd say yes !

By the way , love your work on the Nomad !

Thanks I hope to have the nomad done soon. But on to the question at hand, you said that the Nomad isn't custom because it had a stock body, yet Watson's T-bird has no body mods other than a few tacked on accessories, and it is a custom? If I added some dummy spots and changed up the taillights on an otherwise stock 1969 Camaro, it would be a custom also?

[LoneWolf15]

Not in my book ! The T- bird has a custom paint job , that is all that I saw . I know nothing of the car , hence my first question . If you take your Nomad to the GSL , enter it in the replica stock class along with the documentation of all that you did on the the build , you'd do well !

Enter it into the custom class ? I don't think it would do as well .

[Guest]

Harry ,

No argument from me ! Difference being , I read the rules , others ? Weellllll evidently not !

While we're on this subject ..... Here is one of my pet peeves ! The curbside category .

Some shows insist that there will be no motor , exhaust , frame detail , etc ! Now , if you look at a vehicle sitting at the curb , in a lot , etc , and you bend down to look , all of the aforementioned are visible , correct ?

As far as I'm concerned , a true curbside has everything but an open hood ! Es Verdad ?

Curbsides are viewed as just that. The view you would have of a vehicle across the street or even farther away. How would you be able to see the engine? One show I attended had in the rules that curbsides were to be judged at a distance of four feet from the table. Others say three feet. Even at that, I still think the judges go around beforehand and get a closer view of them. I know I do.

[LoneWolf15]

Not the engine ! Oil pan , exhaust pipes , etc , yes ! You need to have a bit more of a separation between curbside and slammer , other than the interior .

True story , friend enters a build of mine in a show , puts it in the curbside class under my name . Hood is glued down ! Judges state the car can't be entered into the curbside as it had exhaust and motor detail underneath .

My buddy took the car outside , yanked off the hood , pulled out the engine block and yanked off the exhaust . He glued the hood back in place and the car took first place in the class and won Best Paint overall . Made no sense

to me . Other shows , the detail is expected , they all differ !

[Darin Bastedo]

Not in my book ! The T- bird has a custom paint job , that is all that I saw . I know nothing of the car , hence my first question . If you take your Nomad to the GSL , enter it in the replica stock class along with the documentation of all that you did on the the build , you'd do well !

Enter it into the custom class ? I don't think it would do as well .

actually having seen the competition at the GSL I'd have to say my work would do just as well in any class. It wouldn't place.

[Jantrix]

I've never been to a contest where the non-box stock catagories refered to the type of work done to the car. The catagory refers to the type of car the model is supposed to represent. Simple as that.

[Dr. Cranky]

Wow, this is one of the most informative threads in a while. I thank all the folks for the great input on your way to clarifying all of this . . .

Donn, I agree with you on the assessment of what makes a curbside.

Rich, I agree with you that Watson's T-bird is a custom, and am delighted to know that mild custom work on a chassis and body will still turn a build into the custom category.

Darin, I love those flames!

[Foxer]

There's one thing not really considered here. The paint vs. bodywork brought up by Cranky brings it up the same as a Revell 49 Merc in a custom catagory. You can enter it in what many consider a wrong category but in the end it's going to get killed as far as points by those that are really customs. So, whats the point of doing it? if your '49 Merc was built well you might win the box-stock but in custom class it doesn't have a chance no matter how well built.

Of course, in a NNL show everything here is mute!

Edited February 14, 2012 by Foxer

[Dr. Cranky]

Rob & Mike, you both make interesting points.

Here's another scenario, not really related to the Custom class, but which goes to prove my point about the importance of paint over body work and other modifications.

I bet you anything that you take a well built and beautifully painted Hot Rod (shiny paint, of course) with no modifications and you put it up against a Rat Rod with lots of modifications and customization, etc . . . and the Hot Rod will win time and again. It's called judge's bias.

Here, I'll add a bit more fuel to the fire, so to speak.

How about a model that gets entered into the custom class which is not very well painted or build but which SHOWS something brand new never done before, for example the first model builder to have working features in a model. Surely, that must have been the case with the first person to bring in working lights, or working window cranks, or working door/trunk/hood latches, working suspension, etc . . . Something innovative.

I often wonder if the late great Auggie Hiscano had not been a great painter too, how all his amazing scratch-building would have fared at the table.

I'm not trying to be ornery or cause trouble, I'm simply trying to keep pushing the definitions . . .

Edited February 14, 2012 by Dr. Cranky

[Foxer]

The hot rod/rat rod example is a good one to ponder. I'd definatly expect the almost box stock hot rod to come away with more points, although a highly modified rat rod should surely win more points. Judge's bias is in there for sure .. and will always be. That's probably why I stay away from contests .. other than the fact I can't seem to finish anything in my glacial retirement.

With the operating feature thing, it has to come down to the nitty grity .. how mush value each judge awards to specific features. A paint friendly judge may give little to the bad paint job and over extend the value to the working headlights. It might go the other way for a judge that brush paints his rides and can't get the wheels to turn.

It all comes back to the contest rules and ultimately the mercy of the judges. Maybe we should shift the discussion to the value of judge pay off.. will he appreciate a Revell or AMT 49 Merc more???

Edited February 14, 2012 by Foxer

[Scale-Master]

Yes a fabulously painted model will catch everyone's eyes quicker than a so-so painted one, however, should that fabulously painted model win over a model that has more extensive bodywork done to it and only a decent paint job.

If the work is not up to par, even if there is more work done, it should not get a "pass" over something that was done well overall even if it is deemed "easier". Should be about judging the overall finished models, not the attempt.

While we're on this subject ..... Here is one of my pet peeves ! The curbside category .

Some shows insist that there will be no motor , exhaust , frame detail , etc ! Now , if you look at a vehicle sitting at the curb , in a lot , etc , and you bend down to look , all of the aforementioned are visible , correct ?

As far as I'm concerned , a true curbside has everything but an open hood ! Es Verdad ?

Agreed! And if the model represents a car with an exposed engine and open top those elements should be included in the judging. I took a Corvette Indy to a show and entered it in Curbside. I was told I need to choose if the judges judge the engine OR the interior since they can't judge both. ????

As far as moving parts, it may be a tipping point when all other things are equal (how often does that truly happen?). But I don't think extra credit should be given in a static model contest for moving parts.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Scale-Master

[Chuck Most]

Harry ,

No argument from me ! Difference being , I read the rules , others ? Weellllll evidently not !

While we're on this subject ..... Here is one of my pet peeves ! The curbside category .

Some shows insist that there will be no motor , exhaust , frame detail , etc ! Now , if you look at a vehicle sitting at the curb , in a lot , etc , and you bend down to look , all of the aforementioned are visible , correct ?

As far as I'm concerned , a true curbside has everything but an open hood ! Es Verdad ?

Not if that puppy is laid out on the rockers. You know, because its unseen airbag suspension setup is 'aired out'.

[SuperStockAndy]

To the OP-yes, I believe they should be in box stock. Now if they did like a factory category, then that's a different story. Now, say you take the Revell '69 Nova (the 2 n 1). You build the drag car, exactly the way the instructions say. There's no real customization done by the builder. But if you put a bigger cowl hood on, made a roll cage, made all the goodies, then it should definitely be in a different section.

[Psychographic]

My question is; Should these models actually have been put in the Box Stock Class instead of the Customs Class, since no actual "custom work" was done to the model...???

I think it's important to know what other classes were listed? Were the catogories based on actual categories such as Factory Stock, Race Cars, Muscle Cars, Import/Tuner, Supercar/Exotic Showcar/Customs etc., or are the classes broken down to Box Stock, Custom, Radical etc.? Without knowing the other categories, it's hard to know what what is meant by custom.

One is based on what the cars are modeled after, one is based on the type of construction.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Psychographic