Ramfins59 Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 OK... Here's another question about Model Contests that should stir up a good discussion. I have been a member of the Long Island Auto Replica Society (LIARS Club) since 1992. I kept my membership even after I moved to western PA five years ago. The LIARS Club started hosting a model contest in 1994, initially in conjunction with a military modelers club (Suffolk Scale Modelers), but started putting on their own successful Car Model Contest in 2001. I personally felt that, as a member of the club, I would NOT enter my models in competition as I felt that: #1 It wouldn't really look good at awards time if members of the host club were winning awards. I tried convincing other club members to do the same, but a lot of them DID enter the competition and some of them DID win awards. Most of those that entered did not travel to many other contests off of Long Island. #2 Not having club members winning awards would have that many more awards available for the other modelers who travelled to the show. I feel that by a club's members not entering their own show, they eliminate the "possible" feeling by those entrants that did not win anything, of judges favoritism towards its own club members. I know of several clubs whose members enter their own contests and whose members always go home with several 1st Place, Best Of, and Best In Show awards. The LIARS Show has had at least one instance that I know of, of being accused of favoritism towards its members by a contestant who DID win an award, but felt he should have won a higher award. Do YOU think that a model club's members should enter their own Show...???
moparmagiclives Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 I dont see why it would be any different then a 1:1 car show. I've never seen a club enter and put on a show/contest . Its used to drive more membership and intrest in the sport/hobby.
Ramcharger Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 Drive 3 hours to enter a contest and watch club members give each other awards and then you'll have your answer. You'll do it once, then it becomes a club contest!
Guest Dr. Odyssey Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 Why not? It boils down to ethics. If they are honest and ethical and judge that way it should not matter. But I have seen the good ole boy system in action and no longer waste my time going to those shows. They are not contests to me anymore, just a bunch of guys giving themselves awards. Pretty hollow.
Tony T Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 Absolutely no, not in the main contest categories and make it clear in the contest rules. Have a club or judges category for the club members who want to enter a build at their show and have it as a modeler's or entrant's choice.
jw78z28 Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 I'm not a big fan of members entering there own contest. I go to a few shows a year, some of the shows allow members to enter some don't. It sucks when you drive 2 hours one way to watch the club members win. I went to a show in KY. two years ago it was the first year for the show, I forget what show it was. So I packed up about 10 models that where built within the last year and made the 2 hour drive in my 78 Z28 with 4:10 gears. when I got there I set all my builds up and started to look at some of the other builds on the table and fig. it would be a good day for me, wrong. It really sucks when you get beat by a car that was built 5 years prior to the show and still had about 2 years of shelf dust on it. I pretty sure 95% of the awards went to members. Never went to that show again. I don't expect to win everytime I go to a show but it makes it nice. Sometimes I like to lose so I can look at the winners car and see where I went wrong or what I need to improve on.
LoneWolf15 Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 I watched this occur at an NNL event , the ballot box was , shall we say overly stuffed , with votes for club members builds . The following year , the number of entries was several off by several hundred from the previous show . The club just couldn't understand what went wrong ! Ron is correct ! Individuals travel many hours from all directions to compete and all they ask for is a fair platform to do just that ! By removing / preventing club members from competing in their own show , you remove the taint of bias or favoritism . This is a positive step in the proper direction! The Buckeye Club , which Ron is president of , took a quantum leap beyond that . Each contestant must judge in the contest , picking a 1st , 2nd , and 3rd place from each class ! In otherwords , each individual is judged by their fellow contestants , not the host club . Does this work ? It certainly does ! It sparked a whole lot of discussion amongst the modelers themselves all day long . This is an up and coming show , held by individuals who have done their homework , and is a showcase as to how model car shows should be run. I strongly urge those who enjoy competing to attend ! I have a feeling that within a very short period of time , this will be "the " show to attend in the coming years !
Bobdude Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 Absolutely not.The hosting club does the judging,it's a conflict of interest.
Harry P. Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 Any time the host club allows its own members to enter the contest, the idea of "favoritism" can't be avoided. It makes no difference how "honest" the judges are... it just plain looks bad when club members are competing in their own sponsored contest. And let's be honest... how many people can actually be "fair and balanced" in their judging when they know some of their good friends are competing in the contest? Better to not even have the appearance of possible favoritism.
FASTBACK340 Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 I'm with Rich on this one.... Even if I'm not competing at a show,I'm a bit cheesed-off when I see the host club's members win. It's like eating at someone's house and having Hamburger while the homeowner eats Steak.....
weasel Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 ok, all of us super modelers aside, what about the average club member that doesn't 'travel' to shows, only show he enters is THIS show....YOU tell him he can't enter... on any table that i have EVER judged [quite a few], only the BEST models were chosen, PERIOD...if it came down to it, i would judge the 'known' model MUCH tougher than the 'other' one....now, is THAT fair?? dunno, this could go on for pages... lol
LoneWolf15 Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 So , let me see if I'm on the same page with you . A well known modeler's build is going to be held to an even higher standard than everyone else's build on the table because of who they are ? Of coarse that isn't fair , and shame on the judge that does it ! Does it exist ? It most certainly does ! This is why your well known and prolific builders shun certain shows . The end result when coupled with " spreading the wealth " with the awards, is a run of the mill , average show . When clubs ask why this builder and that builder no longer attend their show , the answer is not that far away ! All they have to do is look in the mirror , that is where it lies !
weasel Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 by 'known' modeler i was refering to the local talent in the club, not a Randy Derr or a Jim Drew!!!
LoneWolf15 Posted February 17, 2012 Posted February 17, 2012 by 'known' modeler i was refering to the local talent in the club, not a Randy Derr or a Jim Drew!!! In my book , it doesn't change a thing !!! Level playing field for all ! Internal turmoil is just as bad for a club as external when it comes to judging ! Please understand , this is not pointed at you or anyone else . This is an opinion , based on my observations over the years while attending shows . Who knows ? Maybe some of the guilty parties will read this and it might give them pause ! There is always room for improvement !
JMChladek Posted February 17, 2012 Posted February 17, 2012 I don't know. I suppose I am blessed to live in a region where the contests don't have that kind of favoratism for the most part, but given that I don't enter very many car only shows, I haven't necessarily seen the results of a dedicated car show recently. Granted I am only just getting back into car models, but in my region with the general model shows I have done, the numbers attracted aren't where they are on the East coast or the denser parts of the midwest. As such, local members have to enter the shows to swell the ranks a little. Generally, the members visiting from other regions welcome the participation as they like going up against the local talent to see who really can build the best models. When the average distance between Omaha and other major cities with clubs big enough to host such contests is anywhere from 120 to 250 miles (meaning two to four hour drives one way) and bad weather can sometimes affect those plans, a contest table with no local members entering due to a ban on such things to let the visitors have all the fun can look somewhat barren. Logistically, a model contest in a certain area at least where I live is trying to attract participation from the local people as well as visitors. So a local potentially interested in joining a club might not want to join if it means he can't participate in the big show. As I said, in larger population regions, there might be a need for a ban, but every club is a little different. I would say if there IS such a problem, it will rear its ugly head pretty quick. And if it happens, the problem will either ultimately correct itself or the show will die. In my case, there was one show in a neighboring state I attended for many years. I mainly went since it gave me an opportunity to get out of town for the weekend and enjoy myself. I would pour my skills into something and build to a high level in my category only to at best get 2nd or 3rd even when the local guy who won (and was a friend of mine) said I should have gotten first. But, I had none of it. I said if he was judged to have the better model, he should deserve the award. In these years, typically the category we were competing in had plenty of subjects and I said I preferred to placing second or third in a well represented category than getting first in a category with a tiny handful of models. Eventually, I did start hitting the firsts at this show with my models. But, it was a little weird when a model of mine at a recent show got awarded higher than a friends who I KNEW was built better (I could see the flaws on mine and they were BIG flaws). So I had to wonder if maybe I had begun benefiting from a "good ole boy" network (or the new crop of judges just didn't know how to judge). In the end though, whether one wins or not all we really get is a small plaque or a ribbon showing our place. Most of my plaques don't sit out for long (a year at most) before getting boxed up. It is nice to get a win, the claps of approval and the recognition, but then it is back to square one trying to figure out what to do next anyway. And I am still left with the model that I enjoyed building and it now occupies a space on my shelf. Ultimately though, I model to have fun. The contest experience is mostly just to show off my work in public so I can talk to other modelers about it (or ask other modelers about their work). To me, THAT is the main reason I go to these shows, not the ribbon or plaque necessarily.
Mercman Posted February 17, 2012 Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) In our contests here the members were not allowed to enter. We had a separate category for them with a peoples choice type award. Or the entire contest could be held that way. One vote per entrant, with a peoples choice. In the contests where the host club members were entered, they judged categories that they did not have a model in. Like a car guy doing military, and vice versa, with a separate award for the club members. For 10 tears I sponsored and ran a contest with a local car club here. I got guest judges who were knowledgeable in cars to do the judging. The host club with the show, would pick out their favorite from all of the entries for their award. Edited February 17, 2012 by Mercman
Danno Posted February 17, 2012 Posted February 17, 2012 The Desert Scale Classic is operated by the Cactus Car Modelers Club of Phoenix. I'm the head judge at DSC. We critically judge the contest classes and many of the judges are club members. Club members are not eligible to enter the contest's classes. However, we have a separate display table for club members, and we ask the contest entrants (not club members) and spectators to cast ballots for several categories (Best Club Entry, Best Paint, Best Engine, Best Interior). Thus, the club members are not competing against DSC entrants, but they still have an opportunity to show, enter, compete and possibly win an award. That's important in a geographical area where there are not many contests. And, it gives the DSC entrants the rare opportunity to judge the judges' models!! We haven't heard any complaints about DSC's integrity since we initiated this system several years ago. As an aside, I also serve GoodGuys Rod & Custom Association as Model Car & Pedal Car Show Director for the two events in Scottsdale, the Spring Nationals and the Southwest Nationals. It was always awkward having the majority of entries being from membership of the two local clubs, Moonlight Modelers and Cactus Car Modelers, especially since several very prolific members have been volunteers who help me put on the GoodGuys shows. And, with as many excellent models as we've always had on the tables, critical judging became too onerous in the short timeframe available. A couple of years ago, I hit upon an outstanding solution. We now run the events as completely peoples-choice balloting. We invite, encourage, and urge spectators to view the models and pick their favorite. The model receiving the most votes receives the "Peoples Choice Award," and the next ten top vote-getters are awarded "Top Twelve " plaques. We round out the "Top Twelve" by awarding a "Best of Show" Award which is selected by the staff who help me run the event. This way, even the guys and gals who help operate the event can enter models and have a fair and equal chance to receive an award and there is no possibility of bias. We get between 1000 and 1300 ballots per event, so there's not much chance of ballot-stuffing, either. This system has generated zero complaints, and it has reinvigorated my volunteer staff as they now have two more major model car contests they can legitimately and honestly enter in this geographical area, without the potential of bias accusations.
Harry P. Posted February 17, 2012 Posted February 17, 2012 Hey, who do you think you are, trying to suggest a logical solution that actually makes sense?
Qwit Pushin Posted February 17, 2012 Posted February 17, 2012 Honestly, I don't care. This for me is a hobby first and foremost. Beauty will always be in the eye of the beholder, which is why I prefer the NNL format. I'll quit attending contests/shows when I see modelers with sponsorships. Otherwise, all's fair in love and modeling!
Dr. Cranky Posted February 17, 2012 Posted February 17, 2012 My first reaction is to always say no, it doesn't look good. But I think the members of the club do have all the right in the world to show off their models, but not for the competition. I think for the sake of eye candy on the tables, you bet. But it DOES NOT look good when member compete and win. Donn is absolutely right, all it does is dwindle the number of attendees down from one year to the next.
Rob McKee Posted February 17, 2012 Posted February 17, 2012 This is why I don't enter anything I have built in shows/contests. I build for myself and really don't care what others think. Not to say I don't listen to constructive critism, it is what makes us better modellers and I welcome it. Main reason for my feelings on this stem from Model Railroading. This is my other hobby (among many) and I attend an annual show where awards are given to paticipants. I have seen some people enter the exact same module (diorama) year after year and win first place. Granted it really is a beautiful piece of work and by all means deserves a prize, but come up with something new. I entered a module I had built and won a first place. It has never been back to the show. Now the awards I am talking about are the Peoples Choice awards. Aside from the Peoples Choice Awards there are judged entries. This is where I see a conflict. I have never entered anything into any of these categories because I have seen entries ignored simply because of the builders name on it. Really, I can't believe grown men who participate in a hobby for enjoyment can give awards to those they know and not to the better builder. The excuses are down to the finest details, too many rivets, color is off a shade, and so on. I still enjoy going to the event each year even though this is going on. I actually feel a little sorry for these people who don't seem to have anything that gives them joy and satisfaction in life other than the hobby. My hobbies are for my enjoyment. I spend money on them that I earn, I build models that I think are garbage, and I build models that I think are great. I run a train on my home layout and sit back with a cold beer and watch it go around. I don't pretend to deliver grain to the grain elevator, coal to the docks, and I don't want to be told I should be doing that or I am not a true hobbiest. So, I decided not to open myself to that type of unwanted banter. I go to the shows, and enjoy and learn from what others have done.
LoneWolf15 Posted February 17, 2012 Posted February 17, 2012 Rob , You cannot enter a show winner again in any show , once it wins in any particular show it's retired except for a display table . This is for the car shows , strange , as many years that I've been involved with the trains , I've never entered a competition with them . The car shows are an education unto themselves , far more good than bad ! I love them , some just need a bit of tweaking ! Lol !
Rob McKee Posted February 17, 2012 Posted February 17, 2012 Rob , You cannot enter a show winner again in any show , once it wins in any particular show it's retired except for a display table . This is for the car shows , strange , as many years that I've been involved with the trains , I've never entered a competition with them . The car shows are an education unto themselves , far more good than bad ! I love them , some just need a bit of tweaking ! Lol ! I agree with you that once a model of anything is entered in a contest it should not be permitted again. I model N scale trains and we build modules to a standard track layout for our club. Each member can build these modules to the standard and connect it to the overall club layout. If a member chooses to enter the module in the contest for judging they can. Here is an example:
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