this may be of interest to some

[jerseyjunker1]

i posted this on the 1:1 forum

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2012/04/12/ohio-man-busted-for-trying-to-sell-cloned-chevelle-z16-as-the-real-thing/

[Bartster]

That serves him right. I don't think he deserves the car back.

[Ben]

Well, right off you can tell the guy wasn't too bright. He punches his own VIN tag and faces the raised letters inward instead of outward!

[deja-view]

That serves him right. I don't think he deserves the car back.

Right. Most states would have impounded that car and never let it see the light of day...which is also unfortunate for anyone wanting a good shell to start over.

[Junkman]

I had never heard of a Chevelle Z16.

Was that something special or just a rare version?

From the article:

"I own 2 real Z16′s, and am the owner and editor of the Z16 website and Z16 Registry. www.z16chevelle.com . . ."

All you have to do is click on it.

[Brizio]

Never heard of this Z16, but interesting in how people try to have a "rare" car...

[Jon Cole]

There was even a model kit of it, although I think my box art looks diff than this-

[deja-view]

It's the "clone" thing rather than paying for/building your own real thing syndrome. The oddity about this trend is that clones at car auctions sell for huge money....almost as much as some real ones, and more than nice, fresh examples of REAL (but not super rare) classics and muscle cars.

Years ago when I had my '67 GTO all done I got tired of the inferences and questions so I change my plate to "REAL GTO". That helped. But no matter what muscle or exotic I ever had there were always gawkers who tried to tell me it was either NOT a real "xxxxxx", or that something wasn't correct on it. After a while ya just havta stare at them and they go away. I actually ran into a young guy at a "pit stop" while getting some food who had a '91 Corvette like mine with ZR-1 badges on it. He tried to tell me it was a real ZR-1, and explained why some things didn't match up (like no extra 4" in rear width). Of course, he didn't want to open his hood, even after I showed him my tidy powder coated and P&P'd LT5. It didn't take but a minute or two to know he was a BS'r.

Hosted on Fotki

I guess he may have fooled some of the folks on the road who don't know about those cars, but why even bother because sooner or later it gets revealed. I've actually seen 'em on ebay trying to sell as ZR-1's when they were clearly not. A GTO vs. a Tempest or LeMans is one thing; or any other muscle car with fake badging, but when the body is different it's just being foolish.

This idiot with the fake Z16 was trying to rip someone off. That, to me, is more than ego. It's a crime.

Edited April 20, 2012 by deja-view

[Guest Johnny]

Nothing the matter with a well built clone as long as the owner never tries to represent it as anything else.

I have had a couple over the years and when I sold them the new owner knew exactly what he was buying.

The problem is what will the next guy or one on down the road do with it.

There are lots of people out there that have cars that are not really what they believe they have bought.

Why? Because they did not have the knowledge of the vehicle and did not bother to have it checked out by someone that does.

it doesn't take a whole lot even for a novice to find out if what he is thinking of buying is the real deal.

Bad thing is some of the BIG auction houses have ignored some in the know and auctioned off cars that were not the real deal.

They chose to play dumb and you know they knew better.

Good to see the guys over at Chevelles.com get recognition for outing this one! It isn't the first time and you know it won't be the last that they catch! They are a pretty vigilant bunch when it comes to clones and cons!

[Harry P.]

The guy was pretty stupid to try and pass off the car as a Z16 when it had so many obvious clues that it was not what he claimed it was. What an idiot.

[Junkman]

Nothing the matter with a well built clone as long as the owner never tries to represent it as anything else.

Exactly. There never will be anything wrong with being honest.

And trying to qualify a clone off as an original will always be a crime.

[moparmagiclives]

I wonder what "criminal tools" would include ???

[Junkman]

I wonder what "criminal tools" would include ???

Well, at least over here, you are not supposed to possess the punches for VIN numbers, unless you are certified.

The legislaton could be similar in some States.

[Bartster]

I wonder what "criminal tools" would include ???

.......My guess would be whatever equipment he used to stamp the phony VIN tag with.

[moparmagiclives]

It's not illegal to have numerical or alphanumeric punches, I have lots. I wonder if they are criminal after the fact?

[The70judgeman]

Just pays to do your homework when considering an investment. You'd better know what you're looking at before you slap down that check or cash. Personally, I don't mind if someone makes a clone, tribute, or whatever you want to call it...just so long as the seller doesn't try to pass it off as "the real deal". I'd consider buying a well done clone, knowing it IS a clone, because the car I want is waaaaayyyy out of my price range thanks to collectors with deep pockets.

[Junkman]

Say that's a good point ya got there.

But i you comb your hair different it won't show as bad.

If I hit the wrong notes, then it wasn't the wisest choice of wording.

My intention really only was trying to be helpful. Please excuse.

And yes, the premium a genuine Z-16 commands over the price of a 'regular' SS in collectors' circles would be a healthy downpayment on a house.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Junkman

[Guest Johnny]

I wonder what "criminal tools" would include ???

Maybe the special VIN Tag rivets and the tools to install them.

[Junkman]

I think it's having these

that would be considered having criminal tools. As I said before, in the EU you are not supposed to have them unless you are certified and I can imagine the legislation is not dissimilar in some States.

And no, I don't have them to fake muscle cars. I use them to stamp the bicycle frames I build. Still, strictly speaking, I could get nicked for having them.

It would take me but minutes to make my '75 Rover into a '72 enjoying road tax exempt status, for example. If I had any criminal potential that is. My wife says I'm way too conservative, though.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Junkman

[deja-view]

It's not illegal to have numerical or alphanumeric punches, I have lots. I wonder if they are criminal after the fact?

Not so sure about that. When I was restoring my Mustang the left front inner panel was replaced and one of the cleanup guys accidentally tossed the old panel. I would have preferred having the original VIN stamp cut out and welded back into the new panel, but it was too late. So, in order to restamp the panel I had to go to a Mustang/Ford restorer that was certfied by Ford Motor Company, and had the correct vin stamp dies...including the period correct tiny stars at each end. Maybe the DMV might have let it pass, but I'm not sure because they had a local police specialist come and verify the rest of the VIN stamps before I could put the fenders on, and then sign an affidavit for the new one. It could depend on the state, but I was told that not just anyone could order the stamping dies and do it without proper documentation. I know I sure preferred it that way.

Edited April 22, 2012 by deja-view

[Junkman]

Not so sure about that. When I was restoring my Mustang the left front inner panel was replaced and one of the cleanup guys accidentally tossed the old panel. I would have preferred having the original VIN stamp cut out and welded back into the new panel, but it was too late. So, in order to restamp the panel I had to go to a Mustang/Ford restorer that was certfied by Ford Motor Company, and had the correct vin stamp dies...including the period correct tiny stars at each end. Maybe the DMV might have let it pass, but I'm not sure because they had a local police specialist come and verify the rest of the VIN stamps before I could put the fenders on, and then sign an affidavit for the new one. It could depend on the state, but I was told that not just anyone could order the stamping dies and do it without proper documentation. I know I sure preferred it that way.

What you describe exactly mirrors the legislation we have throughout the EU. even having the punches when you aren't certified is already a crime. And the real key here are the star punches.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Junkman

[moparmagiclives]

I guess I just never thought of there being "vin" stamping tools. I use stamps for lots of identification uses. Perhaps it's the reverse stamps to raise the letters not imprint them? Crazy stuff.

[Danno]

Not so sure about that. When I was restoring my Mustang the left front inner panel was replaced and one of the cleanup guys accidentally tossed the old panel. I would have preferred having the original VIN stamp cut out and welded back into the new panel, but it was too late. So, in order to restamp the panel I had to go to a Mustang/Ford restorer that was certfied by Ford Motor Company, and had the correct vin stamp dies...including the period correct tiny stars at each end. Maybe the DMV might have let it pass, but I'm not sure because they had a local police specialist come and verify the rest of the VIN stamps before I could put the fenders on, and then sign an affidavit for the new one. It could depend on the state, but I was told that not just anyone could order the stamping dies and do it without proper documentation. I know I sure preferred it that way.

Correct. And, unless one is a manufacturer (GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc.) it is illegal to possess, manufacture or attempt to replicate the special rosette rivets used to attach VIN plates, etc.

Other than select certified, licensed and bonded restorers, it is illegal to possess the unique stamps used for VINs; that's why the characters in VIN numbers are typically unusual fonts ~ it helps to easily distinguish between numbers (3,6,8,9,0) as well as rendering comonly available stamp sets useless. And if some idiot uses a common stamp set to "create" his own VIN plate, it is immediately obvious as a forgery.

There is usually no prohibition against ordinary letter/number stamps - it just isn't necessary, since manufacturers don't use the common fonts.

Some of my favorite forged VIN cases involved (1) a total idiot who covered the true VIN plate with a phoney plastc Dymo label ... like THAT wasn't obvious! (2) the fools who try to replicate federal labels but misspell the manufacturer's name {"This vehicle manufactured by the Cryshler Moter Compny"} or (3) the bozos who put a GM VIN on a Lexus and don't understand how we knew the car was bogus!

[martinfan5]

Dan, how long did you work in auto theft?

Is owning a slim jim in some states or all of them illegal , I know towing company's and road service company's like AAA can have them. The hospital I worked had one, but it had to be signed out.

Edited April 23, 2012 by martinfan5

[moparmagiclives]

Concidering he didn't stamp it with the correct type of stamps, those he had would not be considered "criminal tools" correct?