Quick question about contest judging...

[Tom Geiger]

  On 11/5/2013 at 6:43 PM, mspeanut said:

and the very Hardest to Judge are the Pro Classes, Novice Class was easy!

I've always disliked where they have classes where a participant needs to declare his level of competence, well because people are less than honest. I remember one show where a seasoned modeler entered the novice class because the description was "for novices - builders who haven't placed at our show before". This guy attended this show for the first time and saw a loop hole. Yea, he won first place and was quite proud of himself. Never mind that he made a total joke out of the intent of the class and probably discouraged some budding modelers.

My other peeve is when a six year old shows up with a polished model, engine wired, using photo etched parts. You just know that young puppy didn't build that himself!

[Danno]

  On 11/5/2013 at 11:20 PM, Tom Geiger said:

I've always disliked where they have classes where a participant needs to declare his level of competence, well because people are less than honest. I remember one show where a seasoned modeler entered the novice class because the description was "for novices - builders who haven't placed at our show before". This guy attended this show for the first time and saw a loop hole. Yea, he won first place and was quite proud of himself. Never mind that he made a total joke out of the intent of the class and probably discouraged some budding modelers.

My other peeve is when a six year old shows up with a polished model, engine wired, using photo etched parts. You just know that young puppy didn't build that himself!

I was part of a major contest judging staff.

We had a "juniors" category for young modelers under 10. Only rule was age and the entry must be built entirely by the named entrant.

We once had a very excellently painted model "entered" by a 3-year-old. It was a recognizable hobby spray paint color, a difficult metallic, and there was nary a flaw or run in that paint finish and it was smooth as glass. Daddy insisted up one side and down the other that the 3-year-old spray painted the model by himself.

Other entries in that class looked age-appropriate (bare plastic but festooned with crooked stickers and abundant glue smears) for their entrants' ages.

We talked to the 3-year-old briefly . . . but he had no idea what color his model was and he could not tell us how he painted it. In fact, he had virtually no interest in it or any of the other models in the room.

Other models won his class.

Daddy was P-O'd and quite upset with us.

However, there was a positive outcome. Neither Daddy nor the prodigal son ever attended one of our contests again.

[Tom Geiger]

  On 11/6/2013 at 2:19 AM, Danno said:

I was part of a major contest judging staff.

We had a "juniors" category for young modelers under 10. Only rule was age and the entry must be built entirely by the named entrant.

We once had a very excellently painted model "entered" by a 3-year-old. It was a recognizable hobby spray paint color, a difficult metallic, and there was nary a flaw or run in that paint finish and it was smooth as glass. Daddy insisted up one side and down the other that the 3-year-old spray painted the model by himself.

Other entries in that class looked age-appropriate (bare plastic but festooned with crooked stickers and abundant glue smears) for their entrants' ages.

We talked to the 3-year-old briefly . . . but he had no idea what color his model was and he could not tell us how he painted it. In fact, he had virtually no interest in it or any of the other models in the room.

Other models won his class.

Daddy was P-O'd and quite upset with us.

However, there was a positive outcome. Neither Daddy nor the prodigal son ever attended one of our contests again.

Good for you guys. Many shows would have fallen victim to that father not to cause a scene!

When I was a kid my big dream was to get to a model car show. It didn't happen until I was an adult. As I've attended shows as an adult and looked over the junior class, it's evident that we get those 'daddy built' models as well as models built well by kids who have the advantage of a skilled modeler father and his fully stocked inventory / workshop. I feel sorry for any kid who has gone it alone, having learned about the show locally and begged a parent to take him there. His models, no matter how hard he tried, don't show well next to those with parental involvement. And that kid would've been me!

At one show I remember many years ago there was a kid, maybe 4-5 with a very nicely built model. As you said, the kid wasn't interested at all, running around the hall doing things that bored kids do. When you looked at his model, and then the models his dad built, there wasn't any difference in quality. Not good enough to place in adult class, but the best in the under 12 class. The show staff didn't notice and the kid won first place. As everyone packed up, the kid went to hand the winning model (that he supposedly built) to the father to pack. The father yelled, "Don't you touch that model!" at the kid. Way to go dad! Some really bad lessons and childhood memories for that poor kid.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Tom Geiger

[Scale-Master]

  On 11/6/2013 at 2:19 AM, Danno said:

I was part of a major contest judging staff.

We had a "juniors" category for young modelers under 10. Only rule was age and the entry must be built entirely by the named entrant.

We once had a very excellently painted model "entered" by a 3-year-old. It was a recognizable hobby spray paint color, a difficult metallic, and there was nary a flaw or run in that paint finish and it was smooth as glass. Daddy insisted up one side and down the other that the 3-year-old spray painted the model by himself.

Other entries in that class looked age-appropriate (bare plastic but festooned with crooked stickers and abundant glue smears) for their entrants' ages.

We talked to the 3-year-old briefly . . . but he had no idea what color his model was and he could not tell us how he painted it. In fact, he had virtually no interest in it or any of the other models in the room.

Other models won his class.

Daddy was P-O'd and quite upset with us.

However, there was a positive outcome. Neither Daddy nor the prodigal son ever attended one of our contests again.

We've run into the same thing a few times too. If we can determine the kid did not build it, or had too much help, we do much as you did. Often you can tell by the parent's actions/attitude and as you noticed, disinterest by the "entrant".

We even had one adult go so far as to enter one of his models in the Junior category. Being that he was a sloppy builder and he had his son enter it, the girls at registration let it in and we judged it as if it should have been there. Not the sharpest crayon in the box, this guy had put his own name on the entry form and had also placed in one of the adult categories as well.

He was totally busted and yet unapologetic when he tried to collect his Junior award. I cannot understand why anyone would try to a pull stunt like that.

Shameless, he continued to enter at subsequent shows even having his wife try to enter his models once he reached the maximum 5 per person entry rule. It wasn't that we had to disqualify them, they weren't competitive. But it was still an attempt at cheating. Finally (thankfully) he moved away...

[Tom Geiger]

A funny story comes to mind..

Many years ago at NNL East, we had a very nice Munsters house in the junior category, along with builds of both vehicles. It had electric lighting inside it. It was voted "Best Junior" by the show participants. Then I noticed a middle age guy holding it, on line to have pictures taken by one of the magazines. Feeling something was off, I approached him and asked if this was his son's work. He replied no it was his model. I asked why it was sitting in the junior category, he replied that was because there was an electrical outlet there! He was oblivious and wasn't trying to win the junior plaque. So we went back and gave the junior award to the second highest vote getter, a kid who built a great model and really deserved it. That could've really been bad if we got to the awards ceremony!

[Scale-Master]

^{We also had another adult lobby to enter a model in Junior he said he built when he was 15.}

Edited November 6, 2013 by Scale-Master

[ZTony8]

Mark,you do bring up a point for discussion about a modeler entering a model built years ago.Where SHOULD it go if it was built when the entrant was age appropriate for a younger builder's class?My feeling is that it would go into the younger age class since it reflects the modeler's ability at that age,not the present age.

Edited November 6, 2013 by ZTony8

[johnbuzzed]

There is no "quick question" when it comes to judging. Rules are usually arbitrarily decided and agreed upon by the sponsoring club- the only exception I can think of would be the IPMS contests. Then, too, in what kind of mood is any particular judge on the day of a show- cranky, magnanimous, preoccupied or...? Let's not forget the crowd favorites- you know, the (in)famous modeler who is known far and wide for building the greatest models in the world- Heaven forbid he or she doesn't win or at least place.

Having been on both sides of the fence, I can tell you that there are builders of poor quality models who believe their creations are the greatest things since crazy glue and judges who lack the basic capacities to be a fair and honest judge. I've left some contests shaking my head in wonder at the decisions that were made.

I attempted to create a fair set of rules and categories which were based on those of an existing successful, long-running contest and a collection of knowledge about the subject from one very-well-known modeler out west. Our club did it's best to have a group of judges who knew what they were doing. For the most part, our shows ran well and while there were problems and complaints, they were few. No matter how hard you try or what you do, you will not please everyone all of the time. Build your very best model for a contest; be a fair, honest and knowledgeable judge; the chips will fall where they may.

[Danno]

  On 11/6/2013 at 5:25 PM, Scale-Master said:

^{We also had another adult lobby to enter a model in Junior he said he built when he was 15.}

Either that same modeler, or his brother, showed up here, too. The answer was the same. No.

[Danno]

  On 11/6/2013 at 7:13 PM, ZTony8 said:

Mark,you do bring up a point for discussion about a modeler entering a model built years ago.Where SHOULD it go if it was built when the entrant was age appropriate for a younger builder's class?My feeling is that it would go into the younger age class since it reflects the modeler's ability at that age,not the present age.

No.

That's the modeling equivalent of a 13-year-old trying to buy a bottle of whiskey by telling the liquor store clerk, "But I'll be over 21 someday!"

No!

If the modeler didn't enter his "work" when he built it as a kid, it's too late to enter it and compete against children now. Would you like to see grown-ups playing Little League baseball because they didn't when they were children? No. Period.

I'm with Mark . . . what possible legitimate satisfaction can a well-adjusted adult get from competing with children?

[Tom Geiger]

  On 11/7/2013 at 12:10 AM, Danno said:

I'm with Mark . . . what possible legitimate satisfaction can a well-adjusted adult get from competing with children?

There lies the problem

Reminds me that back many years ago on another board a guy who built pretty well pops on the board to announce that he went to his local hobby shop show that day and won ALL the awards! He was pretty darn proud of himself. All I could think was that he probably set the hobby back a few years stealing all the gold from the kiddies and casual modelers the contest was intended for.

[Harry P.]

  On 11/7/2013 at 2:13 AM, Tom Geiger said:

There lies the problem

Reminds me that back many years ago on another board a guy who built pretty well pops on the board to announce that he went to his local hobby shop show that day and won ALL the awards! He was pretty darn proud of himself. All I could think was that he probably set the hobby back a few years stealing all the gold from the kiddies and casual modelers the contest was intended for.

Or was it the JUDGES who set the hobby back a few years?

Unless, of course, his models really were the best and deserved to win all the awards.

[Scale-Master]

  On 11/6/2013 at 7:13 PM, ZTony8 said:

Mark,you do bring up a point for discussion about a modeler entering a model built years ago.Where SHOULD it go if it was built when the entrant was age appropriate for a younger builder's class?My feeling is that it would go into the younger age class since it reflects the modeler's ability at that age,not the present age.

To be fair to all the entrants I think the rules as stated for the category requirements need to be followed.

But if some judge wants to split hairs on how much of time the "junior" spent building his entry before outgrowing the age limit on a modeling contest category when it's weeks or a couple months? I'd let it slide in favor of participation.

Now in the case I cited...

I too wondered at first (in the interest in fairness what) what was the best response... I thought my "diplomatic" response worked well enough.

Even though it was likely his entry would not have garnered an award unless due to attrition, I asked him how he'd handle explaining to the youngster he "beat" why he got the award. He was a much sharper "crayon".