licensing agreements?

[Art Anderson]

Oh, I'm sure they were easy to tell apart in their day, I was just having a little fun!

The bigger point I was trying to make (and have been trying to make) is that the Chinese are at a similar period in their in industrialization and modernization as the US was then. We're basically able and set back and watch them go through their own industrial revolution with all its challenges in labor relations, intellectual property, patents, copyrights, etc...

To my young eyes back then, while I could tell my dad in an instant which "modern" cars were Fords, Chevies, Plymouths and the like, to me as a kid, EVERY car from the years before "The War" all looked alike! It wasn't until I received several books on old cars for Christmas a couple of different years, and began studying them, that I began to understand what appeared to be very subtle differences from one make to another.

And yes, I would agree with you that the chinese are very much in a real "hot house" of development, from one of the most "Third World" of third world countries, into a very sophisticated 21st Century industrial and economic powerhouse. In many ways, it's a lot like seeing much of the "evolution" (if you will) that occurred here in the US over at least a century, compressed into perhaps just a couple of decades--talk about a "fast forwarded movie"!

Art

[GLMFAA1]

OMG! Didn't this hobby grow from Aluminum (AMT) promotional models and paint demos for dealers? Who paid back then? Don't try to clone "Barbie".

Anyone interested in a Rolex? Let's just hope you don't have to register each time you use a trademark in writing. Just remember 'This broadcast is owned by MLB and the rights of _______ team, any reproduction or transmission of content is strictly prohibited.' Oh by the way what was the score.oops.

greg

[fumi]

You can't see any resemblance? Time to get glasses, maybe?

Here's another one. Don't tell me you can't see that this one is an almost direct copy of a Mini Cooper:

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/china-s-lifan-320-copies-mini-cooper-57654.html

And even more...

http://www.ridelust.com/5-amazing-automotive-rip-offs-from-china/

And how many of those cars you quoted, all were from the last decade or older, are still in production? Shuanghuan, which made the X5 and the Smart lookalike and the majority of the "clones" you mentioned, is winding down its passenger car business. Lifan, which made the "Mini clone", has revamped their entire car lineup. The rest are either car show specials that never went into production or are long gone from the market.

The market has been changing so rapidly in the last couple years that it has largely stamped those clones out. Companies that cannot cope with the changes are forced out of business.

As for the Dongfeng Mengshi, AM General could not sell the Humvee to the PLA under sanction so they sold parts for 100 vehicles to Dongfeng, with full understanding that Dongfeng will produce the car indigenously from then on. A civilian version was devised to skirt the sanction, but was never sold to the public.

[fumi]

And yes, I would agree with you that the chinese are very much in a real "hot house" of development, from one of the most "Third World" of third world countries, into a very sophisticated 21st Century industrial and economic powerhouse. In many ways, it's a lot like seeing much of the "evolution" (if you will) that occurred here in the US over at least a century, compressed into perhaps just a couple of decades--talk about a "fast forwarded movie"!

Essentially what Japan went through in the 60's, or Taiwan and South Korea in the 80's.

Japanese cars in the 60's and the early 70's looked just like scaled down versions of American cars, before they went on and developed their own designs.

[Harry P.]

And how many of those cars you quoted, all were from the last decade or older, are still in production? Shuanghuan, which made the X5 and the Smart lookalike and the majority of the "clones" you mentioned, is winding down its passenger car business. Lifan, which made the "Mini clone", has revamped their entire car lineup. The rest are either car show specials that never went into production or are long gone from the market.

The market has been changing so rapidly in the last couple years that it has largely stamped those clones out. Companies that cannot cope with the changes are forced out of business.

As for the Dongfeng Mengshi, AM General could not sell the Humvee to the PLA under sanction so they sold parts for 100 vehicles to Dongfeng, with full understanding that Dongfeng will produce the car indigenously from then on. A civilian version was devised to skirt the sanction, but was never sold to the public.

You can spin it any way you want, but that doesn't change the fact that the Chinese haver copied western designs for years. You say they aren't doing it anymore? That doesn't mean they didn't do it in the past!

You are entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts.

[Art Anderson]

You can spin it any way you want, but that doesn't change the fact that the Chinese haver copied western designs for years. You say they aren't doing it anymore? That doesn't mean they didn't do it in the past!

You are entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts.

And, downright copying of other's (even from the UK!) patented designs by Americans goes all the way back to the spinning jenny, that machine which made thread from bolls of cotton! Stolen industrial secret from England in the early 1800's by an American diplomat. So, this stuff cuts both ways, I think.

Art

[Harry P.]

And, downright copying of other's (even from the UK!) patented designs by Americans goes all the way back to the spinning jenny, that machine which made thread from bolls of cotton! Stolen industrial secret from England in the early 1800's by an American diplomat. So, this stuff cuts both ways, I think.

Art

So how does that affect the fact that the Chinese copy other auto makers' designs?

[Art Anderson]

So how does that affect the fact that the Chinese copy other auto makers' designs?

It doesn't, of course. Just pointing out that this sort of thing has also been done by our country's forefathers as well.

[Art Anderson]

Oh, and Harley Earl, when styling the first LaSalle for Cadillac, boldly copied most of the lines and themes of the very stylish, French-built Hispano Suiza.

Art

[Brett Barrow]

It's the way a child learns to speak, by mimicking its parents, or the way a great artist learns by copying the masters. Industrial China is still in its infancy. Check back in 20 years (probably more like 5 at the rate they're going) and I bet you they're cranking out some pretty cool original designs.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Brett Barrow

[Dr. Cranky]

Of course, we are keeping this conversation to the topic at hand and model car related, but we also don't have conversations in a historical/political vacuum. We must remember that China's form of government DOES NOT provide its citizens with the kinds of freedoms some Western nations enjoy. For example in China (and this is why they have such an explosive economy) a worker can't simple opt to NOT work, right? And that worker's salary is not really dictated by his skills or market worth, but what the government decides for the worker. CHEAP LABOR is always guaranteed by such a government and therefore it attracts these insatiable greedy corporations to go over and get lots of NEXT TO FREE CHEAP LABOR (where do you think McDonald Happy Meal toys come from?). A Chinese worker and his family cannot decide to have more than one child, etc . . . you get my point. China has done a wonderful PR job of making the West feel like CHINA is this new century is reforming without changing its form of government.

Not everyone can be blind to the fact that the Communist Party is in charge and they decided long ago that within the boundaries of the People's Revolution ALL IS FAIR including bringing to market (from books and movies to cars!) their own products (made with cheap/free labor) in order to compete and market the global economy.

Even Hollywood (which is really run by these huge corporations) have begun to cave under China's pressure (and consumption) to change the plot of movies critical of current Chinese politics. And they do so as long as they have China agreeing to stop piracy and the proliferation of copied CDs/DVDs, you name it. They not only provide the world with the largest consumer base but they also guarantee the world some of the cheapest production. So they win time and again. Nobody can compete with such formula.

[Harry P.]

Industrial China is still in its infancy.

Don't think so. They may be in their free market infancy, but they're as industrialized as anyone.

[sjordan2]

To show how complex the issue can get, a German F1 Mercedes driver, during the current qualifying for this weekend's German Grand Prix, sported a FIFA logo on his car to celebrate Germany's World Cup victory. FIFA asked for it to be removed since it was on a competing brand that conflicted with Hyundai's official FIFA sponsorship.

[Brett Barrow]

Don't think so. They may be in their free market infancy, but they're as industrialized as anyone.

Modern China might have been a better choice of words.

[fumi]

You can spin it any way you want, but that doesn't change the fact that the Chinese haver copied western designs for years. You say they aren't doing it anymore? That doesn't mean they didn't do it in the past!

You are entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts.

Yes, some companies have copied Western designs, and the market has told them to either clean up their act or get lost. Doesn't this answer your original statement of "how China respects copyrights"?

Don't think so. They may be in their free market infancy, but they're as industrialized as anyone.

China didn't really become industrialized until the 80's, when businesses from Hong Kong started moving their factories across the border. It spent the 80's and 90's making garments and small electronic goods for foreign companies. It wasn't until the late 90's that indigenous brands started to become mainstream in the white goods market. For the automotive market, the indigenous brands are still fringe players and I don't see this to change any time soon.

It might have a lot of factories, but as far as industrialization goes it is at around the same level as Japan was in the late 60's to early 70's, though it is catching up rapidly.

[fumi]

Of course, we are keeping this conversation to the topic at hand and model car related, but we also don't have conversations in a historical/political vacuum. We must remember that China's form of government DOES NOT provide its citizens with the kinds of freedoms some Western nations enjoy. For example in China (and this is why they have such an explosive economy) a worker can't simple opt to NOT work, right? And that worker's salary is not really dictated by his skills or market worth, but what the government decides for the worker. CHEAP LABOR is always guaranteed by such a government and therefore it attracts these insatiable greedy corporations to go over and get lots of NEXT TO FREE CHEAP LABOR (where do you think McDonald Happy Meal toys come from?). A Chinese worker and his family cannot decide to have more than one child, etc . . .

People can opt not to work, but without legitimate reasons they won't get paid. I think it holds true for most societies.

The government has not fixed salary since the 70's, after Mao died. Factories and office jobs will pay more salary than people can make in farming, so the young people rushed to the cities to work in them. Foreign companies who set up office in China will pay a salary several times more than the local companies, so the brightest and smartest people go work for them. It is just that the salary is still lower than in the West, even with all the increments over what the local companies can afford to pay.

The one child policy has its consequences, and the people are feeling it now. Without it the consequences would have been much worse, though.

China has done a wonderful PR job of making the West feel like CHINA is this new century is reforming without changing its form of government. Not everyone can be blind to the fact that the Communist Party is in charge and they decided long ago that within the boundaries of the People's Revolution ALL IS FAIR including bringing to market (from books and movies to cars!) their own products (made with cheap/free labor) in order to compete and market the global economy.

Even Hollywood (which is really run by these huge corporations) have begun to cave under China's pressure (and consumption) to change the plot of movies critical of current Chinese politics. And they do so as long as they have China agreeing to stop piracy and the proliferation of copied CDs/DVDs, you name it. They not only provide the world with the largest consumer base but they also guarantee the world some of the cheapest production. So they win time and again. Nobody can compete with such formula.

It is reforming, albeit in a slow pace. The numerous revolutions in the last century from an empire to a republic to communism showed that abruptly changing the form of governemt did not work well in China. It had actually pushed back progresses.

In reality China is moving past the "cheapest production" stage. The salary has raised to the point where industries that require intensive labour and little input has become unprofitable, especially for garment. A lot of those factories have relocated to Bangladesh, Burma and Vietnam in recent years.