Zero paints - gritty finish question

[Dave G.]

Just get the paint stripped and see how bad the plastic actually is, it's likely not/hopefully not as exaggerated as the paint. I'm thinking a little sanding then glazing putty and re-sanding should get you out of the woods. Then prime again and go from there. Go easy laying on hot lacquer lol. Everything I've read on the Zero colors is they dry flat or maybe satin, so you just need enough color to cover the body evenly. Clear coat is your gloss coat and final finish.. It's then really a base coat clear coat system which is fine but you don't need to bury the car in color coat.

That said I'm not a fan of using hot lacquers on models to begin with and the plastic in this kit seems especially vulnerable. A couple companies would mix your color in enamel which is plastic friendly.

[Mcpesq817]

Thanks guys, really appreciate all the thoughts and feedback.  I'll pull the body out of the bath today I think and see what I'm dealing with.

This has kinda burned me on the Zero Paints experience.  Any recommendations for other manufacturers that might run a little less hot?  I just didn't see the types of paints you see on cars in the Vallejo or Tamiya line, with some exceptions.

[GeeBee]

38 minutes ago, Mcpesq817 said:

Thanks guys, really appreciate all the thoughts and feedback.  I'll pull the body out of the bath today I think and see what I'm dealing with.

This has kinda burned me on the Zero Paints experience.  Any recommendations for other manufacturers that might run a little less hot?  I just didn't see the types of paints you see on cars in the Vallejo or Tamiya line, with some exceptions.

Give Gravity paints in Spain (not the USA one) a try, they don't have the range that Zero does, I've used both Gravity and Zero without any problems, basecoat paint is totally different to regular lacquer, but once you've learnt how to apply them, you'll be very happy with the results , the Volkswagen Golf was painting using Zero and the Land Rover was painted using Gravity, both basecoat and then given a few coats of clear lacquer. 

 

Edited January 21, 2021 by GeeBee

[Mcpesq817]

Thanks Geoff, those look fantastic!  Can I ask what you use as a primer under the Zero paint?  And when you shoot Zero paints, are you just applying a fine mist coat?  

[Dave G.]

You could put down a single coat or even two of acrylic over the primer before shooting the Zero. That should form a barrier. Vallejo Model Air should be fine. Myself having nearly 100 craft paint colors in stock would just use that but that's another matter. What I mean is I wouldn't go buy something specifically is all.

As to other paints, I'm presently messing with MCW lacquer. It seems ok, colors are accurate. They sell enamel too and Mike can mix any color so don't be afraid to ask questions ( even about how hot the paints are).

[GeeBee]

4 hours ago, Mcpesq817 said:

Thanks Geoff, those look fantastic!  Can I ask what you use as a primer under the Zero paint?  And when you shoot Zero paints, are you just applying a fine mist coat?  

I use Hycote plastic primer, I buy there grey and white primer, decanted from the aerosol and mix them 50:50 so I end up with a very light grey primer.

I found using Zero and Gravity paints, I set the airbrush at around 15 psi, and use the #3 needle and tip on my Paasche VL, put on a light coat to just hide the primer, leave it around 10 minutes and come back and do another light coat, and keep doing that until I've covered the primer completely,  once I've got a good uniform covering I leave it to dry for at least 24 hours, then put on the acrylic clearcoat, again made by Hycote. 

[Mcpesq817]

Thanks Geoff!  That's very helpful!  

Really appreciate all the help guys, thank you!  I had picked up a number of Zero Paints from Hiroboy, so would love to be able to figure out how to use them properly.  Looks like I should try dropping the PSI on my airbrush, and using very light coats - lighter than I might be used to with Vallejo and Tamiya.  I still haven't had a chance to take the one body out of the bath, but hopefully later tonight I can do so.

[Bainford]

On 1/20/2021 at 6:25 PM, Dave G. said:

 The medium is good too but that .25 is exceptional to me. You probably get the same paint job in the end but to me the .25 is just sweet. Another thing I do is use the fine needle with medium tip, the transition from light to heavy spray is slower. You wouldn't think so but it is.

Thanks Dave. Very interesting information. 

[peteski]

MP, use plastic spoons for tests.  That way you won't have to possibly ruin good (or rare) model bodies.  While the spoon's plastic formulation might be slightly different, is makes a good disposable test subject.

[Mcpesq817]

Thanks Peter, I've seen that approach used by others and should have thought to do it.  The Zero Paint FAQs made it seem like shooting the paint was fairly easy, but apparently not for me!

[Dave G.]

You just need to practice, it will be fine, you've got a few ideas to work with now. How did the bodies turn out after stripping ?

Edited January 22, 2021 by Dave G.

[Mcpesq817]

11 hours ago, Dave G. said:

You just need to practice, it will be fine, you've got a few ideas to work with now. How did the bodies turn out after stripping ?

So the first one, which was the worst, finally came out of the bath a few minutes ago (work has been killing me the last two days).  The plastic is crazed like everyone thought - the bumps are in the plastic.  It's almost feels like a textured finish now, and you can see the effect on the hood.  Does it look like I stripped enough paint off?  Since I'll have to sand, I didn't think I needed to get it perfect, but given this is the first time I've stripped a body, I wasn't sure if I need to get it stark white or there will naturally be some paint/staining.  I used a kitchen sponge and Q-tips to get the paint off, and interestingly, I couldn't get that much off on the underside (which won't be shown anyway given that these are curbside).  

 

 

I guess what I'll try doing is sanding the body down, and then using Mr. Surfacer 1200 primer again which helps fill minor imperfections (actually, I just ordered some of the heavier Mr. Surfacer to get a little help on the filling of the imperfections).  We'll see how that goes.  And of course, I'll practice on some spoons.  In the meantime, I just put the second body (from the earlier pics) in the bath and will let that soak a few days too.  This green body may not be salvageable, but the blue one isn't nearly as bad.

 

Edited January 23, 2021 by Mcpesq817

[Dave G.]

When a model comes out of a Purple Power bath I do some scrubbing with a stiff tooth brush but also think nothing of using the back side of a butter knife and scrape it off. Works great for me.

You can probably sand the worst parts of that body with 220 or 320 grit paper. The 400 and prime. Save the real fine papers for the final primer after. You may need to prime and sand two times, then it should look pretty decent.

[Mcpesq817]

Fantastic, thank you and everyone else for all the help and guidance with this!  

[65slotcar]

i'm sure all  these steps  have been gone over,  but this is  my process.  #1  wash  body  in mild dish  soap before i do anything to the body. #2  sand body in 400 grit and clean plastic flashing and wash again with mild dish soap.  #3  prime with  Zeropaints  ZP-3001. #4   Sand  any bad spots with 800 grit  and give body a light scuff  with grey  scuff pad. #5 base coat  using Zeropaints  .   i use a  cheap  Iwata  Neo  airbrush and it works  great .   i run a higher  pressure  then most  at 40 psi  but i only pull back trigger on airbrush  about 30-50%.  but i'm  sure 20psi  at full trigger  should work great.  #6  after decals applyed   i use Automotive  House Of  Kolor   clear.  about  4-5  super  light coats  at first  to make sure decals don't  get destroyed. then final  coats are applyed  meduim  to heavy coats.   i  love  using Zeropaints,  sprays  smooth and  dries  super  fast.   so like others have said,  very important  to wash mold release  agent from body  and have a good primer on body before  base coats.

 

Bill

Edited January 23, 2021 by 65slotcar

[Dave G.]

Many modern airbrushes are restricted anyway. You can crank the pressure all you want but the passages in the brush may well be designed to shoot 23 or so lb ( max flow). Some will accommodate full pressure up to 50 or so lb ( by that I mean flow the full pressure), the Paasche H is one among those. Just sayin.

Edited January 23, 2021 by Dave G.

[Mcpesq817]

3 hours ago, 65slotcar said:

i'm sure all  these steps  have been gone over,  but this is  my process.  #1  wash  body  in mild dish  soap before i do anything to the body. #2  sand body in 400 grit and clean plastic flashing and wash again with mild dish soap.  #3  prime with  Zeropaints  ZP-3001. #4   Sand  any bad spots with 800 grit  and give body a light scuff  with grey  scuff pad. #5 base coat  using Zeropaints  .   i use a  cheap  Iwata  Neo  airbrush and it works  great .   i run a higher  pressure  then most  at 40 psi  but i only pull back trigger on airbrush  about 30-50%.  but i'm  sure 20psi  at full trigger  should work great.  #6  after decals applyed   i use Automotive  House Of  Kolor   clear.  about  4-5  super  light coats  at first  to make sure decals don't  get destroyed. then final  coats are applyed  meduim  to heavy coats.   i  love  using Zeropaints,  sprays  smooth and  dries  super  fast.   so like others have said,  very important  to wash mold release  agent from body  and have a good primer on body before  base coats.

 

Bill

Bill, many thanks for outlining your steps, this is very helpful!  I did everything you did through step 4 except with I didn't use the Zero primer, I used Mr. Surfacer.  Have you used any other primers with the Zero paints?  Their website says all primers should be fine, and Mr. Surfacer is a pretty good one in my experience.

Another question if you don't mind.  When you spray, how far away do you keep the airbrush?  And do you do one quick pass per section per coat?  I think my issue might have been putting down the first pass, then seeing that I missed a spot, and respraying on top to get that spot.  My guess is that was the big problem.

Those car bodies are beautiful by the way, I'm hoping to get bodies half that nice!

[65slotcar]

thanks  MP,      so  most  manufacturers  say all primers  should work fine with  there product  and that may be true, but i like to stick with the same  company  for primer and base coat.    i brake  the rule when  i clear coat  and use  House of Kolor  clear.   i have never really  payed attention to how close i spray ,  but would say  about 4-6  inches  away.   i  try  my best to cover everything  in one pass  per coat.    another  note,   i like to use these  spring loaded  body stands  and i use a hobby  spray booth  with a heat lamp near by if it is cold out.  i lay down fresh  newspaper  every time i use spray booth  and it really helps to keep model clean  when spraying.

[Mcpesq817]

Thanks for that info Bill, really appreciate it!  I'm going to buy some Zero primer and try that out.  It's possible that the Mr. Surfacer was fine and I just oversprayed, but not worth taking the chance again.  

I use those spring loaded body stands (I think I have the one from Tamiya), and have a spray booth that I vent to a window.  The window has a screen so I've been cracking the window open and venting to the screen, but I might start popping the screen out and extending the venting hose out of the house.  I didn't realize how toxic these paints are.  I haven't used newspaper, but have used cardboard to line the bottom of the booth to keep things somewhat cleaner.

Here's another question if you don't mind.  Does the Zero primer run hot?  I was thinking of using the Mr. Surfacer to prime and fill, which I would then sand down, and repeat to get as smooth a finish as possible.  The Mr. Surfacer is designed to fill minor imperfections, so I figure I can go with that and then spray the Zero primer on top as the base for the Zero paint.  Unfortunately, seems like domestically there isn't much Zero primer available except for smaller containers of the micro fill, so I figure maybe I can get away with doing the prime/fill job with Mr. Surfacer and not use a full container of the Zero primer.

[65slotcar]

not  sure what you  mean by hot, (melting  plastic or drying fast)  i do know that if you spray  zeropaints   primer too  wet  it will crack  when dry,  so you want dry  mist coats.  ZP-3001  is a filler primer  and does a great job of filling scratches and minor  imperfections.  Hiroboy.com  still has it in stock, maybe a little  pricey  on shipping.  bottle is  120ML  and you can spray a lot of model bodies  from 1  jar.      if you go with  Mr.  Surfacer primer  just  test on a plastic spoon like others have suggested.

[Mcpesq817]

Sorry, I meant melting/crazing the plastic, which happened with me.  Unfortunately, it looks like I can only get small bottles from Hobbyworld USA, so I might try the Mr. Surfacer as primer and go much lighter on the Zero paints base color.  I had ordered a bunch of the Zero Paints from Hiroboy, but the shipping was pretty pricey.  Don't want to pay that kind of price to just ship a bottle or two of primer.  It looks like others have used Tamiya primer which i have so I can always try that out.

So I randomly found a video of a guy comparing Gravity and Zero paints.  At 22 minutes in, he starts spraying the Zero paints.  His first coat seems very light, and then the second he goes heavier than I went - but only waits like 30 seconds to add the second coat.  In the span of a total of 3 or so minutes, he applies four coats.  Then at 27 minutes he complains about the rough texture.  It's hard to tell from the video if he experienced what I experienced, but my guess is probably so.  I waited 5 minutes between coats, and I'd say I probably went a little less heavy than his second coat.  He calls is orange peel, but I think it's plastic crazing.  Then at 30 minutes in, he says he couldn't sand out the orange peel using 2000 wet grit.  The video seems a bit misleading in that he clearly isn't following the directions.

 

When you shoot, do you just do light coats as his first coat and wait the 5-10 minutes between coats?  

 

EDIT:  I just found this guy's video, and don't think I sprayed it any heavier than he did, but maybe I did.  Very confusing!

 

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by Mcpesq817

[Mcpesq817]

It just occurred to me that maybe another issue I had is maybe I didn't stir the paint enough, and so I was shooting more thinner than had I properly mixed the paint in the bottle?  I'm going to have to find a bunch of plastic spoons and practice it seems...

[65slotcar]

The last time i ordered from Hiroboy   i made sure i  ordered  a bunch of paint to make it worth while.  But  shipping  was almost more then the cost of paint.  There service  is great and received  paint  fairly  quick.  Not  sure  why  the guy in video  is applying  coats  with no flash time, maybe just to speed-up video.  i go by  Zeropaints  web site,  spray at 15-40  psi   and 5-10 minutes  flash time between  coats.   i use  a  distant  heat lamp so  i go only  5 minutes  flash  between  coats.    you  want  as few  coats as possible  with base coats  because they are going to dry flat and need clear  anyway.  heavy  coats just bury  the detail  like trunk and door  lines.   so i just  spray   many light coats  just to get full color  nothing else.

[65slotcar]

10 minutes ago, Mcpesq817 said:

It just occurred to me that maybe another issue I had is maybe I didn't stir the paint enough, and so I was shooting more thinner than had I properly mixed the paint in the bottle?  I'm going to have to find a bunch of plastic spoons and practice it seems...

Zeropaints   are pre-thinned   and i never  had to reduce  them.  just shake until you hear the  marble  rattle and then shake a bunch more.   one thing i didn't mention  is the use of transfer pipettes.   after  shaking bottle very well  i use  these  pipette  to  get paint from bottle to airbrush.  super cheap on e-bay  about  $8.00  for 100

[Mcpesq817]

Bill, really appreciate you taking the time to help me on all this.  You and others here have been incredible.  Hope I can repay the favor in the future.

After watching the videos, those pipettes were exactly what I thought I needed to get.  I've been pouring from the paint container into the airbrush cup which can get messy and wasteful as you can imagine.