Cheating in Model Car Contests

[roadhawg]

what do you guys do with the trophies you win?

Dave

I can take mine and $1.00 down to Hardees and get a cup of coffee.

[FloridaBoy]

I discarded all of the meaningless trophies, that is those that were awarded more for politics and less than achievement, and kept the meaningful ones. I display all of the meaningful trophies in my dining room shelves, and my cars in the hutch. Our family tradition was that we display our trophies, incluing the tennis trophies, running trophies my ex wife won, basketball and cheerleading trophies my children won over the years.

It is not for ego, but for memories and validation of our efforts.

For example one of the trophies I discarded was a model car trophy in an IPMS contest in which my 4 entries were the only ones entered. When I put them down, I anticipated competition, and none happened, and down here cars are basically ignored and I won 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in that category. Useless, out..........

My favorite trophy is a tennis doubles trophy in the City Championships where I worked and teamed with the #1 player in the state, a UM graduate with a win over Borg. He carried me, but once the opponents realized who he was, they focused on me, and I held up, although the match went to midnight, hard fought, and provided a great memory.

My favorite model car trophies were my very first, won in 1961, which inspired me to strive to branch out my technique, validate my present workmanship. My second favorite are my 3 Pactra "Pegasus" trophies, 2 senior and 1 paint from 64-65. I met Augie Hiscano and even got to see his special entry, which had real oil in the crankcase in 1964.

To me, trophies are not testimonies to my excellence as all it takes is one scroll on Work in Progress and Finished Under Glass on this forum I realize where I stand. Added to that are some of those links you guys hooked me up with and I bookmarked. All are inspirational and reflect top state of the art work.

Trophies are accolades, and like everything else, if too much value is placed on them, or if you infer you are the best because you won one, just open up one of the cars shown on this forum. There is always someone better. For example, in 94 I finished a chopped AMT 49 Merc after 2 months on the bench, and thought I was hot stuff. Then I saw Fred Grumke's Mercs, including the Hirohata Merc he did for the Museum put me right where I belonged.

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman

[FloridaBoy]

I could not segue in my remarks about women in model car building and contests. To me, to have a womens category is condescending. Down here, the absolute best club that ever existed was the Treasure Coast Scale Auto Society (TCSAS) which boasted 50 members had several fabulous contests, helped restore the Cushenberry 40 Ford Matador, and had several builders of national and magazine feature calibre. It shown bright but burnt out for a multiude of reasons.

One of the guys always brought his girlfriend Dixie, who was a shy and real looker, and basically made home in the background, that is until our first contest, and she put down about 7 cars which were among the best seen. She was the best foiler I have seen even to today, not a wrinkle, and could foil a name sideplate. She competed against the men, and was very successful, and if she were put in her own category, which she didn't want, she would have been quite alone.

In 1994, TCSAS flew in Augie and Pat Covert to appear at the annual contest, which featured about 500 cars, and hers stood out in Factory Stock and Street Machine classes, and both guys said her work was superior.

I believe in Junior category as I believe in that with time and diligence you get better. so a 16 year old kid just didn't have the time, in many cases that a 50 years old man does.

Granted this is still a male dominated hobby, and a "powder puff" division is demeaning to those concerned.

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman

[Chuck Most]

First off, this is my hobby. I do this purely because I love it. I care not a fiddler's fart for trophies, plaques, cash prizes, or any of that happy horse-poo. That's one of several reasons I don't go to judged contests. It's just become a popularity game, it seems, and I'm sure they've scared off many modelers. Some to the point they no longer build.

But, to discuss your issues directly-

1. One good builder doing another’s work, which ranges from the motor, detailing, body work, paint to even the entire model. This does not include use of aftermarket products in which the owner/builder contributes the work product to the model. Another is a contestant hiring a commission builder to build a "phantom" model for him, on the sly.

This has been happening in the 1:1 world for centuries now. Sure, George Poteet gets all the ink for his rods, but he never built one of them himself! It was only a matter of time before it began happening in the scale model world.

2. Entering models in the “gray area†in categories. This is a somewhat sophisticated approach when the entry knows the cars to be entered and uses his own discretion to enter his car against supposedly weaker competition.

This is insecurity at it's very finest.

3. Inaccurate description of work, For example, I have seen modelers take credit for opening the trunk and adding hinges to an AMT 49 Merc. An unsuspecting judge will award body work points to a factory provided feature.

I've actually seen this- where a Revell Merc was passed off as an AMT. Now, it may have been an honest mistake, but seriously there are a few SUBTLE differences between AMT's old warhorse and the Revell offering! I don't remember if the builder 'took credit' for the top chop or anything like that, but it raised my eyebrows.

4. Using pre-painted bodies and taking credit for the paint job.

Or this- polishing a molded-in-color body and passing it off as paint. Yeah, I've actually seen at least one shady character get away with it.

5. Entering a specialist’s motor or chassis detail to the entry built by the contestant.

Again, no different from having a pro build the engine or chassis for your full-scale rod. It's only when the owner passes the work off as his own that's a problem, but gladly I don't see this happen too often.

6. Judge’s ignorance, agenda, biases. preferences, pre-formed opinions, attitudes, knowledge of contest cars and contestants, and inappropriate use of his discretion.

I guess this ties into issue #3- some of these judges can't tell a DeTomaso from a dill pickle. I think the judges need to have at least a basic understanding of the cars (1:1 and small scale) in order to be qualified to do their job. As far as agenda, biases, and the like, there really isn't much you can do about that.

7. Inappropriate voting practices, such as stuffing ballot boxes on audience participation judging, making deals when voting, etc.

Short of going to peer judging, having somebody to keep an eye on this stuff could curb the problem. But that's a pretty drastic measure to take, and as many of you have pointed out, this is a HOBBY and should be about FUN! Having a 'ballot sentry' would add an air of mistrust to the whole event, and could potentially sour the whole deal.

8. Organization assigning judges at random, or within the organization, or from the constestant pool, only not within the category.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this one- do you mean having a 'sports car' guy judge the hot rods? Or a race car guy judging the replica stockers? Or is it the issue of just picking some random guy who doesn't know what he's looking at.

Look, if taking home the 'hardware' is all that keeps you motivated to build, I could care less. I'd rather have you building models than, I don't know... shooting squirrels or flashing oncoming traffic as a hobby! But I think way too many people have lost sight of what this hobby is supposed to be about- FUN! Just like the 1:1 car world, there are douchebags in the model car world who don't care whose toes they step on. All they care about is taking home the prize. For what? I've always wondered that, and I can't figure it out.

Why do you need an award?

Shouldn't the finished model, sittin' there all pretty on your shelf, be all the trophy you need?

[Art Anderson]

Ken... possibly a dumb question here, but I mean it seriously:

If the situation is as bad as you describe (and I have no reason to doubt you)... why in the world do you bother with it? Why enter contests at all if you feel, going in, that the system is rigged, dishonest or unfair? Seems to me like you could save yourself a whole lot of hand-wringing if you just forget the contest scene and build for your own enjoyment, not for the judgement of others.

Harry, I agree! I determined, YEARS ago, to enter a model in a contest ONLY if I think it's good enough to show. I learned to build for me, and only me. If I think a model is something I want you to see, then I will show it to you, either in person, or at a contest or NNL, if not then not, period.

The same pretty much is true of magazine coverage of anything I build. If I think a model of mine is good enough to be photographed by a magazine, then I will honor the card requesting mine and my model's presence at that magazine's (or the contest organizers') photography setup, if not, then not. Currently, I refuse to allow any of my stuff to be photographed by "that other magazine" but that is due more to their corporate philosophy, which I have detailed vehemently to them, not related to any other perceived biases.

There are contests and there are contests. By this, I mean that it all depends on the particular fervent interests of the organizers, be they a committee of sorts, or a model car club. Some organizations appear to be very open-minded as to the model car subject matter, others may well be swayed toward dragsters, street rods, or all out, balls-to-the-walls customs. This is very much like IPMS in so many ways--over the now several decades of IPMS/USA for example, relatively few model cars have ever placed at the top, winning the top overall awards at IPMS Nats, but when one looks at the primary modeling focus of IPMS, it's not hard to understand that the organization is heavily dominated by modelers of military aircraft and armor--that's pretty much life.

There are also, those smaller, almost "provincial" little clubs who when they put on a contest, tend to favor the modelers they know personally, and again, that's a part of life as well. For this reason, and this reason alone, when our local model car club, which acted in partnership with our local IPMS chapter for several years in putting on an annual model contest, spoke out intensively AGAINST allowing entries from our own two clubs' membership to avoid any accusations of favoritism, only to be shot down yearly.

So, for me at least, it's far more fun to show up at a contest hundreds of miles away from home, enter something I want the other entrants and spectators to see, and then let events take their course, without any concerns whatsoever about bringing home a trophy. If I do, that's fun, of course, but if not, so what? I went to have some fun, enjoy the camaraderie of being with other modelers whom I may never have known before (and meet up with online friends perhaps for the first time ever!), and that, to me is far more fun. I've found that doing this is a lot nicer than going to a show with high expectations, only to come home frustrated and angry--I get enough of that at my job.

Just some ramblings of mine.

Art

[Harry P.]

Why do you need an award?

Shouldn't the finished model, sittin' there all pretty on your shelf, be all the trophy you need?

Some people get all the satisfaction they want out of model building just by building models. They have absolutely no desire to enter contests, or have their work judged, or win trophies, etc. Like you said, Chuck, the finished model is in itself the reward, and all the "reward" that person needs.

But some guys get their satisfaction by competing. It's just a different mindset. To the competitive types, building a model is only the first step in the process. Entering (and winning) contest is what revs their motors.

However one participates in the hobby is cool, as long as you yourself are getting your kicks. Personally I'm in the "no contests" camp... I have absolutely no desire to compete. But to the competitive guys, the competition is what makes the hobby fun for them... it's where they get their kicks. Some of us want (need?) the hardware, some of us don't. Either way is fine. Different strokes, as they say...

[FloridaBoy]

Model Car Contests, as I have mentioned in posts before, is more than the judging, competition and hardware. I haven't seriously entered a model car contest in a long time, except for a little intra-club ha-ha for a plaque with a cartoon on it.

Contests are those in which anyone whether they compete or not, learn and absorb new ideas, designs, techniques, colors, and a lot if they pay close attention. Second, they usually have a swap meet which guys sell a lot of discontinued kits, or even current kits at discounted prices. I picked up an old AMT 59 Ford 3in1 Galaxie Hardtop to replace one my exwife inadvertently threw out years ago. That made the contest worthwhile.

As for the hassle of the politics, we all have different ways of dealing with it, and I am sensing a lot of skepticism on behalf of a lot of guys regarding the aspect of competing. True, we are submitting art forms to compete against each other, but it is like comparing apples to oranges, and really there is no resolve. Do you give more points to a guy who opens a door and does an average job overall, over a guy who didn't take the chance? Everyone seems to have an opinion, but there is no answer.

I love display tables and primer tables for they are models from purists, but again, it is the competition that brought this hobby from the doldrums in the early eighties, after a long hiatus of non activity. There is a place for competition, even if we don't personally accept it.

Contests are a foundation for an area's model car activity. Even if you don't belong to a club, there is patronage at hobby shops, having a few friends, to stay connected. Contests give a geographical area an identity. Look at Toledo and Salt Lake, Birmingham, and they all provide an impression on us about the quality modeling going on there.

Last, models like to be recognized, and the best ways are through exposure at contests and magazine features. A unshown model is like hanging a Picasso in a closet.

I am no show off, but I like to show off my cars, like the comments about them, even the critiques and questions. The absolute best time I had in a long time was giving a seminar on opening doors and making quick hinges, again done at a contest,which I did not enter.

Right now I am not entering in this state because a guy is "gunning for me" who has a dastardly vendetta to "knock off" Willaman on the judges table, and he is a known cheater. So my cars are geared for other venues outside the state next year and entering out of curiosity just to see if I can regain some of the old juices. I always loved competition in everything in my life, from surfing, Hobie Cat sailing, model cars, model railroading, and tennis. It just brings the life contained in me. I spend a lot of time interacting with my models during the build period which is fun, and get a real hoot out of fabrication of custom work or detailing, but down the line would like to show off what I did.

That is just me.

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman

[Harry P.]

How about starting up your own contest?

From your posts I see that you have a long history in the hobby, and are sort of a "name" guy. Why not gather up a few interested partners and start up your own contest? That way you could use your own judging system that you've mentioned before. I'm sure you must have enough contacts in the model car world to be able to organize and pull off something like this. You couldn't compete in it, obviously... but it would allow you to enjoy the contest scene without the problems you've described, and get you back into the judging arena, which it sounds like you also enjoy. If you could persuade a local hobby shop to sponsor the contest. you wouldn't even have to worry about renting space.

Some years ago several "nameless national luminaries" threw together a little show in a garage just for their own amusement. Look how it's grown. Your contest could theoretically become the next big thing!

[BKIN10SECS]

Many good, true and valid points have been said, and yes I have seen these things happen, nuff said. Why do I buid...I LOVE CARS!!!!! I'm not gonna lie I like to win a trophy once in awhile ....but believe me I do not lose sleep if I don't. What I like even more is to get my car into the magazine why...because the magazine takes your creation and shares it with the rest of the world and what that does, and it has happen to me many a time..is I have met so many people who were familiar with my work because of the magazine. Which in turn, started a new friendship for sharing knowledge, techniques and many laughs . But as stupid as this may sound my biggest pleasure comes from being at a show, standing back and watching people walking up to my model and watching their reaction. Most of the time you can even read their lips and its kind of kool when I see the "WOW" or the even better "OH S**T" . So please everyone, you have all and I mean all have taught me some new technique or have inspired me to try something new. These certain issues will always be there and thats that. I am not trying to change anyones point of view you have the right to it and I respect it immensely but please never deprive the rest of us from seeing your work because of a few issues. You may not see the proper recognition deserved with winning a trophy, you may not see it in a magazine but believe me.....we see it, we know and we appreciate all the work and skill it took and I just want to say Thank You.

[FloridaBoy]

harrypri

I've been thinking about it, seriously. I have been on contest committees which conceived and held a contest from soup to nuts, and of course I would never think of entering my own contest. I have some very good things on my side, like friends, a very viable hosting place (my retirement community has a large rec room tables and parking and would be happy to rent it out to me). some good start up ideas, and I think a good judging system. My location is in the absolute central part of Broward/Dade/Palm Beach, has hotels nearby, plenty of parking, and things to do for others. I am 3 minutes off I-95 and you can get to my place within 30 minutes from any spot in the 3 counties. There are 3 hobby shops I have relationships with. It is possible, and demanding, and possibly after the holiday season, I will commence it. If there are any guys within driving distance of Ft Lauderdale on this forum, I would welcome their participation.

I like the Ridler Award format, a panel of judges views the candidate cars, assigns a "Best 8" then takes a very close inspection to award one of a few cars awards.

This takes the heat off one judge who judges a field of cars. I would do my best to make meaningful awards, as I have have seen some plaques with pictures of their autos photoshopped on them, special recognition, swap meet, auction, gravity drags, quick builds and so on.

There are two remaining problems, first locating a committed dedicated team to help organize, and money, that is in the form of sponsorship.

It is do-able, but the big question is can I start it off?

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman

[James Flowers]

Good comments, man.

I always get annoyed when somebody refers to serious modeling subjects as "just toys" or "just plastic".

What frickin "plastic toy" takes 300+ hours to build?....Calling a serious replica a "toy", is obnoxious and irritating as hell.

I have heard model cars are toys all my life. I can not understand why model cars get no respect? Like the train or airplane hobby does. Cheating and favoritism is rampant in most everything now days. Some how it has become acceptable to do so. I see this in the local sports all the time. The school system I work for is one of the worst examples of this. You can always tell who is going to make the team, by who their parents are.

[FloridaBoy]

I have heard model cars are toys all my life. I can not understand why model cars get no respect? Like the train or airplane hobby does. Cheating and favoritism is rampant in most everything now days. Some how it has become acceptable to do so. I see this in the local sports all the time. The school system I work for is one of the worst examples of this. You can always tell who is going to make the team, by who their parents are.

Mustang,

Because cheating is accepted by the masses does not make it right. Because others accept it and participate in it are not rational reasons to let it go. Take a look at our culture, cheating does occur until someone says "enough!!!" and people get caught, like Bernie Madoff, like AIG, like steroids, like the NBA ref cheating, like Bill Belechik of the Patriots cheating, and the numerous NCAA violations, and the invention of playback cameras to keep referees in check, are good signs that our culture is willing to deal with cheaters.

The problem is that it is very uncomfortable pointing the finger at cheaters, because the cheater is usually very proficient in looking innocent or ignorant, and making the finger pointer look like a troublemaker, so we don't bother. Too many in pre-war Europe didn't want to do anything about it either. Loosening the moral fiber whether we participate or not hurts us all, and I will stand by that as I have witnessed this occurrence for 49 years.

Second, again, I do not agree at all with the opinion that entering a motor in a model built by a professional is OK even if stated. How does one judge if the same pro built 2 engines in the same category? How does one judge workmanship if done by others? Personally I love those motors, as I have seen them on display but I would only display a model with outsider's assistance. How would you feel if you entered a car if you toiled over a model for months, to be killed on the table by a guy who outsourced the engine, paint, body work, and interior? Ain't right at all in my book.

Last, I may as well bring it up. It used to be rampant, and now it is rare, but still happens. What do you do to a modeler who "inadvertently" damages another competitor's model on the table? I have seen guys "by accident" let their kids play with other cars, break doors and trunks, break off wheels, which is nothing less that despicable behavior in my book.

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman

[MrObsessive]

Good comments, man.

I always get annoyed when somebody refers to serious modeling subjects as "just toys" or "just plastic".

What frickin "plastic toy" takes 300+ hours to build?....Calling a serious replica a "toy", is obnoxious and irritating as hell.

Tell me about it!

I gotta admit though...........when at first glance someone mistakes my model for a diecast, I don't take offense-------I take as I did my job well in making sure the paint job is as metal-like and solid as possible!

[ronr]

Let me start by saying, I build for self enjoyment but I like to share my builds with everyone. Double standards....I don`t think so. I only attend 2-3 shows a year. Do I go to win..........If I said I didn`t it would be a Farse. Everyone loves to win. Do I get Pissed if I don`t ......NO. I just enjoy meeting new people and talking about the hobby. If you stop and think about it.... with the avent of Model Forums...Is it not entering a show everytime you post a build. To me the best reward for a build is the compliments from other builders.

I enjoy questions being asked and maybe helping pass ideas of how to do things on to others. Contest are a great place to meet new builders and share ideas.

Cheat!......Why cheat....most of the time you are going to get caught......then you will look like dog-do in everyones eyes.

I think someone posted earlier in this thread.......Most builders would rather have there builds in the Mags instead of winning. True...If you are in the mags it means builders around the world are looking at your build.......now thats one big show!

In the last couple of years , I have gotten into building Dio`s. Now there is a subject that gets very little if any reconition at most shows and hardly any Mag coverage. I have made a lot of new friends that build Dio`s and weathered vehicles including Dr.Crankyand few others here on the forum.

When we stop and think it over real hard.......Isn`t it supposed to be a Hobby......Not a life or death situation.

Until something comes along and turns out the light on the Hobby for me , I will continue to build....post them on forums and attend shows....and with that said..........

I`ll see Gregg, Zoom Zoom, and the rest of the guys at the Southern NNL`s in Atlanta, Next Saturday.

This is only the opinion of an "Old Fart" who builds "Tinker Toys" , as my wife calls them.

Edited November 8, 2009 by ronr

[Ragnar]

I dropped out of a local club, due to two brothers who controled the Model Car Judging. They would enter their Models in the catagories the other brother was judging and they always took top honours, even when there were cars entered that were far superior to theirs.

I hate it when people reffer to our models as toys, or just plastic. My father asked me in 1974 when are you going to stop playing with those toys and get a real job? Those toys as he called them were Pro Grp7, and Grp27 Slot Cars, and I was making quite a bit more per year than My Father was at the time. Believe me it was a Real Job, and those Cars were far from being toys, we were even testing bodies in a miniature windtunnel to get the best balance between down force and drag. The Company would mold bodies based on those tests. Pro Slot Car Racing was a very big thing at the time, but then in late 76 it all crashed . Some People will always think of Scale Autos as toys.

I entered my first Model Car Contest in Charlotte N.C. in 1960 with a customised Revell 56 Ford, I had removed all of the Side Trim, shaved and decked it, Frenched the headlights, modified the grille, and rolled the pans. I also puttyed the joints on the multi piece body. It was sray painted using my first air brush( a Paasche) with Testors Light Yellow and Black. I was very proud of that model it took third in it's class. I was hooked and I entered every model contest I could find for the next few years, even after I Started Building 1:1 Hot Rods. When I look back on those early Models I realise that they were no-where as good as I thought they were at the time. Well I'm now in my Sixties and The Models that are being done today and entered in the shows are far superior to all of those old builds.

I don't enter many shows now due to my health, but I believe Model Building helps me get through each day. Like the post above My time means a lot more to me today than ever, so every hour I put into my models is very important to me.

I am now working on creating models of the real Hot Rods I built when I was Young.

CHEERS!

[Dingo]

Art Anderson, U are right if you don't like the cheating that goes on in some of the shows Y go. I remember back in 1996 I think I went to a model contect here in my home tiwn of Adelaide I thought I was a shoe in for a trophy as there aren't many truck buildes in this here town and I had this mis-concieved idea that wow man I've got a trophy for sure, well I was wrong a hobby shop owner turned up with a radio controlled B-Double tanker model that was so big it took up nearly all the table space and because of it's size U guessed it, it won. Well I can tell U anothe thing thing about that truck and it's owner first the truck it was built by another guy who speciallizes in radio controlled truck builds and the shop owner well he couldn't build his way aout of a wet paper bag if he tried BUT he won and won convincingly at that, when I told the organisors they said man who cares we don't and I said simple if U'r going to be like that I'll never enter this crooked comp again and I never have and it's the only comp we have in this here little town, the next nearest comp is an 8 hour drive away and I ain't dong that for no plastic car or truck no matter how goood it is, but hey each to their own and if they cheat and get away with it then it's on their mind forever as a cheater if they think that way otherwise it's just another case of chicken ###### and who cares.

Dingo

[FloridaBoy]

Dingo,

I had several nasty incidents over the years in model car contests, but had faith back then and still to a degree now. One of the most memorable was the end of my win streak. I had just entered at a large local hobby shop in Ft Lauderdale by the beach my absolute best car, a sectioned 50 Ford Convertible, with lots of custom work, operating doors, and a polished white pearl paint job.

I went back to the shop for the results and to retrieve my "winner", which to me and basically the consensus of window lookers, should have killed everything else there.

Nothing. But when I picked up my car, the owner sternly advised me he was punishing me for building too good of a car, to give someone else a chance, and his approach to judging, against the entry sheet was to take age as a consideration in the reward of the car. For example, a 15 year old building an above average car would be judged above a 19 year old who had the experience to do better. When I showed him the judging criteria, he basically told me "that I had won enough", and even resented such a good model, even though I bought the kit and supplies from him.

Word got around, as he scolded me in public, and frankly all I was going to do is never enter his contest again. I didn't, and a friend stole on of my cars from my display case and entered it, greedy for hardware. I retrieved it with my friend, who confessed to the deed, and again the hobby shop owner scolded me for being in on it.

He had one contest afterwards, and it attracted all of 20 cars, and never had one again. When he went out of business, he was pretty down and out, and bitter, and it was my pleasure to help him out by buying his entire model car and supply inventory 10cents on the dollar. He was grateful and so was I to see a rat get his deserves.

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman

[Harry P.]

In the 1:1 world...It's the Vehicle itself that won the award.

In the scale world, there is an underlying assumption that the owner of the vehicle did all the work themselves.

I agree 100%!

In the 1:1 world, it's actually pretty rare for one person to be expected to do all the work himself (engine, interior/upholstery, body work and paint, etc.) In the 1:1 world those are all very different aspects of building a car that require very different and specialized skills and knowledge. In the 1:1 world it's generally understood that the vehicle itself, not necessarily the owner, won the award.

But in the model car world, the assumption is that we are judging one single person's skill at building a model car, and we assume that all parts of the model were done by the entrant. In the model car world, the model may be judged the "winner"... but what is actually being judged is the builder's skill, and the trophy is actually awarded to the builder of the model more than the model itself. The model is entered as an example of the builder's skill, while in the 1:1 world it's more the car itself that is judged... the assumption being that more often than not, more than one person had a hand in creating it.

[chris coller]

I will add some things that I agree with by the original poster and follow up by agreeing some others on this subject. I do think it is bush league to pass someone else's work off as your own. But in this case you can buy talent( Just like the Yankees). If a said person wants to compete I challenge them to work to the competitive level. Where is the pride in folks buying someone else's work and calling it their own? I just don't get it! I recently ran into this as I saw a car that I had put most of the work into on a forum that had contest pictures on. Spoke to the person about it and let him know how I felt about it but I was paid well for what was done to the car. Not the point though.

Now as far as contests go, I enter a contest put on by the club I am in and usually do well. The catch is, it is a peer vote contest. I also choose not to vote. I agree with the club table idea or atleast no one in the club should be able to vote. Great idea in theory but it won't always happen like that. As far as competition goes, if you lose consider why you lost or didn't place. There are guys out there that are way above me but I plug away and do well. This is a hobby and I enjoy the competition as much as the finished product. Maybe a case of Kleanex for those that get pissy about certain things. I could see if folks were competing for money like a few hundred dollars or something to get that bent out of shape over. But as alot of others have said it comes down to chatting with your peers and enjoying the builds on the tables.

[Chuck Most]

I have heard model cars are toys all my life. I can not understand why model cars get no respect?

Uh... model cars are toys! Not kids toys, but toys in a similar respect to, say, your 1:1 Harley, or your bass boat, or your '67 Plymouth Fury. They serve no other purpose but to make you happy. They're just for fun. Even the most dead-serious replica stock guy is having fun building a model, otherwise he'd be weaving baskets or tap dancing!

Your life would be just as well off (better, perhaps) without them, but just wouldn't be as fun. I don't care if it's a couple ounces of styrene or two tons of steel, or whatever, it's a toy! This is the best hobby you can possibly have, in my opinion. And I could care less if people see my models as toys! Whose respect, exactly, are we lacking? More importantly, why should we care? Some guys shoot animals, some guys bungee jump, some guys collect stamps, some guys stab people. We build model cars! Who cares if nobody but us respects it! Of all the things we could be doing, building model cars is a pretty noble hobby!

And nobody messes with the aircraft and military builders 'cause, well, those guys are friggin' nut jobs!

[Modelmartin]

I think something that would help some of the "work by other than the builder" problems would be for contests to define their rules better. If it is allowed, so be it. If it is not allowed, so be it also! I think an open category would be a good idea, too. I would love to see collaborations by some really good builders out there.

At GSL some years ago, controversy erupted because best in Show was Russ Schwenkler's amazing Tamiya racebike. It was a stunningly well done model and Russ clearly did a fantastic job on it but....... it had $1000. worth of custom machined parts by Cody Grayland on it!! It was allowed because theoretically Cody would have machined that same set of parts for anyone who paid for them and Russ did do all aspects of assembly. I don't know how a situation could get any grayer than that one. Mark G. is an attorney, of course, and trained to make things real gray so his services will be needed to sort it all out! Make no mistake that I think it was an excellent model and well deserving of the win. I think the rules need to catch up to what is happening out there. A contest like GSL should throw the doors open to anything. A local contest should be builder and entrant must be the same person.

That's just my 2 Zlotys!!

[Karmodeler2]

....... it had $1000. worth of custom machined parts by Cody Grayland on it!! It was allowed because theoretically Cody would have machined that same set of parts for anyone who paid for them and Russ did do all aspects of assembly.

Hey Andy,

Does this also apply to paint? and if not, why?

If some one wanted me to paint a car and paid me for it, then assembled it, why is that different than one guy getting machine parts that he paid for, then assembling the model?

The first guy did not paint the model, but had it done, while the second guy did not machine the parts, but had it done.

Each person paid for a particular aspect of the model...where is the difference?

David

[Terry Jessee]

I'm reminded of a line from MacBeth, Act V, sc. v:

It is a tale

Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,

Signifying nothing.

I haven't built a model for a contest in 20 years.

Terry

[FloridaBoy]

Sauber,

The fact that you criticized me personally when I stick to an issue tells us you either have little content or confidence in your convictions and ability to make a point. Second, if you check closer, this was not a complaint as you label, but a stand against a practice that is becoming rampant among us, and reading the replies, it is rampant and is turning people off and away by the hordes. I had convictions and courage to bring it to a head, and my subtitle said this was not for the faint hearted, which obviously some of the posters her fall into that category. My goal is that people will notice when it is happening, and bring light to the contest organizers, and just by the fear of discovery, it will tend to clean up an otherwise dirty contest.

Next, instead of making vague generalities, if you review my posts and replies you will see that 99.9% are either tips, help in techniques, assistance in the history of kits or the hobby itself, or just helping out other modelers, which I have done for years, and will continue to do so.

Now, addressing the bitter old man stuff, first let me know that the remark is not acceptable to me, and it is for sure we will never be friends. If you want to see what kind of person I am, just email Bob Kuronow at Model Car Garage, who founded and runs the company what he thinks of me. He will tell you I am anything like you describe. You need to bone up on your character evaluation. I do have a chip on my shoulder, admittedly, as that goes back to my ancestry.

Last, I do not need to respond to your petty challenges, simply because I am prevented by MB space to post any more photos on this forum. Right now under "attachments", I have used 1.24 of 1.95MB space and the last time I tried to post one photo it rejected me, and this was the second time, so I just gave up. I use my persistence energy only when it matters. Frankly I have been told off much better than here.

You obviously have little regard or respect for the people who have been in this hobby for so long, or you have made it personal with me, so obviously you didn't read my tips on how to disagree without creating resentment on harrypri's last post.

When you have worked so much in this hobby as I have, or Treehugger has or others veterans on this forum, you younger guys should afford the older ones respect because we have been there in thick and thin, putting up with the ups and downs, and still have that enthusiasm. I sure hope you evaluate your own resentment toward others in the future not for the people, but what they have become - seasoned veterans.

If you want to see my work, you can PM me through the forum with your email address, and I will reply with attached photos of my old work and present projects. I could care less of your opinions as I have already anticipated them judging from your tone on this thread. Once sent, I can guarantee you will never hear from me again.

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman

[FloridaBoy]

Goes for you too, Zinn.

Maybe you guys can talk MCM into giving me more attachment space, and I will be a posting fool. After all, all I am is a bitter old man who blames my problems on others......lol.

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman