MODEL CAR CONTESTS AND CLUBS.

[E St. Kruiser50]

Hi all

Thought this would be a good, topic, for us to discuss, as you hear a lot about this "UNDER THE RADAR"

This is not a "RANT", it's "JUST MY OPINION", and an observation that I have acqired over the years, starting at local contests in the L.A area, that I entered, beginning in the mid 50's.

I'm not going to "Point any fingers" here, as I don't think it's necessary. I think what I'm going to share here is pretty much what most of us already know, but we don't talk about, and I'm bringing it up, because I think that the hobby is being hurt really badly by it, and may just be on life support 'till it dies, sooner than some may think.

A lot of new kit's are coming out including re-issues, but isn't what we need to save this hobby.

To me we need a huge dose of respect and humility towards each other.

I keep reading about more hobby shops closing, and now I just read that NASCAR model production will be discontinued Feb. '09. Licensing fee's too high compared to sales. WRITING ON THE WALL

To me over the years the hobby has become more and more exclusive to who get's the coverage, and who wins the awards. Too few people getting all the "Glory", and too few people getting any.

Back in "THE DAY ", contests were never judged by the builder's. Everyone knew about BIAS and delt with it properly.

Real car builders and customizers would judge the contest. Everyone pretty much got to have a little "GLORY"

Not today. And I see that driving good builders an good people away from the hobby permanently in droves.

In our club here in Portland, half our members in the last two years, I'm sad to say, have left because of "BIAS", and I see that trend of "BIAS" and EXCLUSIVENESS growing at an alarming rate at the lower and upper levels of the COMPITITIONS where ever I've been in the last few years.

We hear the promotors lie about it at all levels, but we all know the truth - It's so prevalent, and the higher ya go, the worse it get's. It's becoming sort of an underground joke, and the numbers of contest participants are dropping dramatically because of the EXCLUSIVENESS and BIAS.

I figured someone has to say something outloud, and get some dialogue going.

No one can blackball me at contest, becaues I don't enter - LOL, so nuthin' to lose.

In my own oppinion, BIAS, UNFAIRNESS and EXCLUSIVENESS in this hobby is destroying it, and destroying the fun that it used to be.

Even on line, at times there is a real meanness, and insensitivity to other builders that's totally uncalled for.

Here on line and at the contest, there are the "Prissy, I'm so Cool" builder's, who seem to be addicted to attention, and they seem to desperately need to know everything and be the best at everything - Sad

Now,I've won my share of awards over the years, and got a little attention in mags from time to time, but it was about fun, making friends, and helping other's.

I even have judged contests in the past, and I'll have to admit even I was "BIASED" in my judging, because of personal taste and interests mostly. Over the years I tried to get past that, and saw the need to what I call "SHARE THE WEALTH" of the awards at contests, and I'd tell people that's how I judged, so that the "Spreading around" of the awards would help encourage the up and coming builders.

You may say that's not fair , but how many awards does one person need. Seems like as adults, we could be a little less greedy and arrogant.

I've even tried a couple of time's to get a seperate catagory started at local contests, fot the muliple best of show winners to compete against themselves, but most in the past have been such "TROPHY HOUNDS", that they'ed have no part of it.

I quit doing contests several years ago, as the disparities became more and more embarrasingly obvious, and I felt bad for the guy's who were being over-looked that were really good, and needed the encouragement to keep building.

It wasn't just the contests, but the negative attitudes of those prissy's, " STRUTTING AROUND" basking in their own personal glory, and wondering why some nobody beneath them would even think of speaking to them - These "GIANTS OF PLASTIC" :lol

Same thing happened back in the late 60's with slot racing.

It became too exclusive, and there were far too few people winning all the awards and gettin' all the coverage in the mags back then. Getting the the "GLORY" so to speak, and most of the everyday JOE'S were being left out.

In 5 years the hobby was dead.

Now a lot of people who weren't around then will tell you a different story or have different excuses, but folks I was there, workin' for the largest producer of bodie, Lancer Co., and goin to shows and talkin' to the average guy's who were frustated.

Who you gonna believe?? . Truth is still the truth and ya can't change it no matter how hard people try, or how many lies are told.

The bottom line is, no one seem's to want's to share, and a small group of people want all the glory and attention, and their getting it to the damage of the hobby.

The average builder uesd to have a chance, but not anymore - SAD .

Unfortunately it's a part of the "Male" human nature. We all want to win, but eventually there is a price to pay, and I think it's commin like a "FREIGHT TRAIN".

I realize a lot of you may have a different opinion, and hopefully I'll hear them, but I've tried posting repectfully, and I hope to hear the same .

Maybe we could actually change some things by talking about it, and maybe save this hobby and make it even better, and have more fun at it.

It never hurts to try.

Thanks - Dave

Edited December 9, 2008 by Treehugger Dave

[CAL]

Definitely depends on who is hosting it.

I have been to some really good fair shows, but I have also been to some that were clearly slanted -- club members won 100% of all awards two years in a row when there were clearly better models from non-club members. Interestingly, it was also the club members exclusively who judged the show. Never returned to that one.

However, virtually in everything you will get a degree of BIAS.

Nevertheless, FWIW, I was president of a IPMS chapter once upon a time, however I got tired. I got tired of the little clicks and politics. So I just don't belong to any clubs here. I build for myself first and I don't have to compete against clicks and politics. I think that is where it starts. When "you" start building for click, political reasons, and trophies "you" start to become a different person, IMHO, and I have seen it happened to pretty good guys - who have become intolerable tyrants for a trophy and or a title. Furthermore, in some instances has be come so transparent its cracked a few other good modelers right out of the hobby - or to the state I am in: modeling for myself and pretty much keeping it to myself. E.G. I don't go to shows and contests any longer. Really, I am not bitter about and become a much happier hobbiest.

[Peter Lombardo]

First off Dave, I don’t know you…I don’t know how you approach your/our hobby, or even how you begin the process of a model build. Having seen the work that you have displayed here, I have tremendous respect for the craftsmanship and quality of everything you have presented here. Your models would surely hold up under the scrutiny of the toughest of judges. I don’t think you need to be wringing your hands over this situation as much as you are though.

I don’t think there has been an excess of negativity toward the builds I see posted. Sure, many are not as high a quality as yours and most of the guys here, but so what? I am happy to see guys posting their work here. It takes courage to post a build here if you have any doubt of your ability. You never know how it will be received. My mother used to always remind me that “if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at allâ€â€¦.well, that is a little too idealistic today, but I don’t think it is necessary to tell someone who has slaved over a model for days or months that their effort was not worth their time. I think we can always find something positive about most all builds, and besides, a little well placed criticism can help a younger less experienced builder learn and improve. Our skin is at least that thick, I think.

Only WE are the true important critic of our own work. I say this all the time; I build cars for my own pleasure. I do not enter cars in any “Judged†shows, not because I am afraid or fearful I will not “cut itâ€. I don’t enter because that is not important to me. I only entered the on line contest for the “Beautiful Roadster†because I happened to complete a roadster, two weeks before the contest, that I was not aware of, was taking entry’s. I built my roadster for me and no one else. If others see it and enjoy it, well that is just great.

I, as many of you guys, consider myself an artist. My “real†art is hanging on my walls. I don’t enter those art show/contests either…this is my hobby, and will always be one of my hobby’s. I built model cars long before I found this forum and I will build after it is gone (I hope it never goes away though). I don’t judge my builds by the number of responses I get to a posting. Sure it makes me feel great when a build is well received, but, I know in my heart if a build that I completed is right. I know if I hit it…I know if I successfully challenged myself and completed the build as I envisioned it….and that is all that matters. Forget the politics and forget the favorites, forget childish sniping and most of all forget the negativity……Do it all for yourself….for your personal pleasure…..I think building is a personal pleasure that is shared only at the completion of the journey.

[E St. Kruiser50]

Definitely depends on who is hosting it.

I have been to some really good fair shows, but I have also been to some that were clearly slanted -- club members won 100% of all awards two years in a row when there were clearly better models from non-club members. Interestingly, it was also the club members exclusively who judged the show. Never returned to that one.

However, virtually in everything you will get a degree of BIAS.

Nevertheless, FWIW, I was president of a IPMS chapter once upon a time, however I got tired. I got tired of the little clicks and politics. So I just don't belong to any clubs here. I build for myself first and I don't have to compete against clicks and politics. I think that is where it starts. When "you" start building for click, political reasons, and trophies "you" start to become a different person, IMHO, and I have seen it happened to pretty good guys - who have become intolerable tyrants for a trophy and or a title. Furthermore, in some instances has be come so transparent its cracked a few other good modelers right out of the hobby - or to the state I am in: modeling for myself and pretty much keeping it to myself. E.G. I don't go to shows and contests any longer. Really, I am not bitter about and become a much happier hobbiest.

Thanks Cal

Me too.

Guess it's just the "NATURE OF THE BEAST"

[mademan]

Ive only been to a few local contests, but from what Ive seen..... generaly the guys who put the work in, the extra detail, etc. win... the guys who dont, usually complain aboutit bein biased, or unfair.... they conversly are the guys who dont add the detail, and go the extra way.

I havent entered and contests, so I dont really care. Im just tired of people complaining cause they dont win. Build for yourself, and your enjoyment, not for others.

[E St. Kruiser50]

First off Dave, I don’t know you…I don’t know how you approach your/our hobby, or even how you begin the process of a model build. Having seen the work that you have displayed here, I have tremendous respect for the craftsmanship and quality of everything you have presented here. Your models would surely hold up under the scrutiny of the toughest of judges. I don’t think you need to be wringing your hands over this situation as much as you are though.

I don’t think there has been an excess of negativity toward the builds I see posted. Sure, many are not as high a quality as yours and most of the guys here, but so what? I am happy to see guys posting their work here. It takes courage to post a build here if you have any doubt of your ability. You never know how it will be received. My mother used to always remind me that “if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at allâ€â€¦.well, that is a little too idealistic today, but I don’t think it is necessary to tell someone who has slaved over a model for days or months that their effort was not worth their time. I think we can always find something positive about most all builds, and besides, a little well placed criticism can help a younger less experienced builder learn and improve. Our skin is at least that thick, I think.

Only WE are the true important critic of our own work. I say this all the time; I build cars for my own pleasure. I do not enter cars in any “Judged†shows, not because I am afraid or fearful I will not “cut itâ€. I don’t enter because that is not important to me. I only entered the on line contest for the “Beautiful Roadster†because I happened to complete a roadster, two weeks before the contest, that I was not aware of, was taking entry’s. I built my roadster for me and no one else. If others see it and enjoy it, well that is just great.

I, as many of you guys, consider myself an artist. My “real†art is hanging on my walls. I don’t enter those art show/contests either…this is my hobby, and will always be one of my hobby’s. I built model cars long before I found this forum and I will build after it is gone (I hope it never goes away though). I don’t judge my builds by the number of responses I get to a posting. Sure it makes me feel great when a build is well received, but, I know in my heart if a build that I completed is right. I know if I hit it…I know if I successfully challenged myself and completed the build as I envisioned it….and that is all that matters. Forget the politics and forget the favorites, forget childish sniping and most of all forget the negativity……Do it all for yourself….for your personal pleasure…..I think building is a personal pleasure that is shared only at the completion of the journey.

Thanks Peter

Kinda fun to "SHAKE THE TREE" and see what falls out LOL.

[84vanagon]

Hi all

Thought this would be a good, topic, for us to discuss, as you hear a lot about this "UNDER THE RADAR"

To me we need a huge dose of respect and humility towards each other.

To me over the years the hobby has become more and more exclusive to who get's the coverage, and who wins the awards. Too few people getting all the "Glory", and too few people getting any.

Especially at contests it's become the worst, and I see that driving good builders an good people away from the hobby permanently in droves.

In our club here in Portland, half our members in the last two years, I'm sad to say, have left because of "BIAS", and I see that trend of "BIAS" and EXCLUSIVENESS growing at an alarming rate at the lower and upper levels of the COMPITITIONS.

In my own oppinion, BIAS, UNFAIRNESS and EXCLUSIVENESS in this hobby is destroying it, and destroying the fun that it used to be.

Even on line, at times there is a real meanness, and insensitivity to other builders that's totally uncalled for.

Now,I've won my share of awards over the years, and got a little attention in mags from time to time, but it was about fun, making friends, and helping other's.

I even have judged contests in the past, and I'll have to admit even I was "BIASED" in my judging, because of personal taste and interests mostly. Over the years I tried to get past that, and saw the need to what I call "SHARE THE WEALTH" of the awards at contests, and I'd tell people that's how I judged, so that the "Spreading around" of the awards would help encourage the up and coming builders.

You may say that's not fair , but how many awards does one person need. Seems like as adults, we could be a little less greedy and arrogant.

I've even tried a couple of time's to get a seperate catagory started at local contests, fot the muliple best of show winners to compete against themselves, but most in the past have been such "TROPHY HOUNDS", that they'ed have no part of it.

Maybe we could actually change some things by talking about it, and maybe save this hobby and make it even better, and have more fun at it.

It never hurts to try.

Thanks - Dave

Well said Dave.

I always have viewed model contests as a "social event". To me contests are a place to see old friends from far away. I haven't entered a contest since the early '90's. This isn't due to any judging bias, just that I have a terminal case of C.F.S.A. Through these contests I have met, and came to know, several of the "upper echelon" builders and 99% of them are great people.

The best I have managed to eke out were two third places at the long defunct SouthWest Challenges.

I don't have a competive mindset, so I was tickled pink with these two third places. If I ever do finish something it will be entered. If I don't place, good, if I do place, that's good too.

In our club we do our best to split the judges in groups of three. One from our club, two others from different clubs, to keep the bias at bay. Over the years I have seen I have seen judging bias happening but we try our best not to do it. I've heard the " '----' built that so it's a winner.", and "Who's '-----', never heard of him, so let's look at '---'s' models." The only place that I've seen some really blatant forms of this has been at some IPMS contests. We do have a few "trophy hounds" in our club, and there has been several instances where these hounds had every reason to question the judging. The only way around this would be a "points judging" system such as the ISCA has for the 1/1's. I think the IAAM (?) tried this in the 60's. This is possibly a "TOO big can of worms" to have ever happen.

We too are somewhat guilty (?) about "spreading the wealth". If "-----" has first and second, we might be a tad too critical on his third place entry. I don't know if a "no sweep rule" would be fair either. This point is a tough one.

As far as an upper echelon modeler's class goes that is another toughy. After the judging was over in one contest that several of our best modelers entered, a HASTILY NEW class was created called the "Exspert Class" (their spelling). I can see the black and white sides to this also. Unless the contest has a big enough draw to attract several "names", maybe one person will be competing against themself. There goes another sweep.

In all the vast majority of people that I've met since I joined the club in 1985 have been a great bunch of modelers. In very rare occasions have I ever seen any one who wouldn't answer any questions that were asked. To that end I just "won't go there" if faced with a big ego.

Dave, as usual, have come up with another thought provoking topic again.

Thanks, Don.

[CAL]

Well said Dave.

I always have viewed model contests as a "social event". To me contests are a place to see old friends from far away. I haven't entered a contest since the early '90's. This isn't due to any judging bias, just that I have a terminal case of C.F.S.A. Through these contests I have met, and came to know, several of the "upper echelon" builders and 99% of them are great people.

Interesting you say that.

It does seem that the "upper echelon" builders are also the upper echelon people. It also seems most of the trouble comes from upper middle of the road people who have something to prove or think they are better than they really are.

I also used to think a model contest was a social event, until it became not so social any longer.

This place has become a good substitute: some modeling socializing and a show and tell.

[coopdad]

So Dave, would your suggestion for helping would be to have "shows" rather than "contests"? I am not sure why they don't do that more often. It seems that would encourage exactly the opposite behavior. No trophies will mean no trophy-mongers. Only the people who love to build and share ideas would attend. And isn't that another major reason most of us do this?

I entered my first contest recently after a twenty five year break and was also disappointed. I had all these hopes that people would be sharing ideas, talking about future projects, making friends. I will admit it, I am greedy... I want to learn from everyone. I tried my best to talk to people but nobody seemed to want to discuss anything, even their own builds (and who doesn't like to talk about their stuff). After the trophy presentation the judge (the owner of the LHS) came over and told me (very loudly) about all the things I had done to my model. I knew what I had done over the past 9 months to my model, what's the deal? Only when I got home did I realize... after the trophies were handed out a couple guys stormed out. At the time I thought that it was because the judging took too long. But I now surmise that the judge was justifying his choice in a manner that everyone would hear. He did not want to get into a fight with every guy that thought he should have won.

So, there is another local show coming up early next year. It will be my second contest. Should I enter? Should I bring a couple builds and mark the "Do not judge"? Should I stay home? I guess I will enter and hope that there are others like myself that love the hobby, not the attention.

John

[84vanagon]

Interesting you say that.

It does seem that the "upper echelon" builders are also the upper echelon people. It also seems most of the trouble comes from upper middle of the road people who have something to prove or think they are better than they really are.

I also used to think a model contest was a social event, until it became not so social any longer.

This place has become a good substitute: some modeling socializing and a show and tell.

Hi Cal.

I agree somewhat the tops are the "tops". Five come immediately to my mind. I know what trade three of them toil(ed) at. The other two, I'm not sure. One of the "fab five" probably is well into the highest tax bracket. Two of the others were "working Joes". Two of them have sadly passed (which is happening all too often). All of them have/has their models featured in the publications. All but one would gladly answer any questions that were asked of them. Salt of the earth. I could name drop, but that wouldn't be fair to anybody.

The fifth one fit into your "upper middle" class. He built a string of "pretty faces" when the machined aluminum craze first started. You could tell which models went with him. Flashy and loud. I never saw him pitch a hissy fit if he wasn't happy with the judging, but It was clear he was po'd. I'd bet his road trip buddies got an earful on the way home. I haven't seen his name in any of the mags since his initial 15 minutes of fame.

Yes contests seem to have gotten all to "cliquey". Even at the "bull" sessions. However the best times I've ever had is at the pool side sessions at GSL. There it's about the hobby only. Later I'd found out that I'd been talking to "insert 'big' name here". WOW that's who that was? He's a "REAL" person!

Great boards like this are a double-edged sword too. How can I get anything finished if I'm playing around on my stupid stupid computer instead of slinging plastic?

[CAL]

Great boards like this are a double-edged sword too. How can I get anything finished if I'm playing around on my stupid stupid computer instead of slinging plastic?

I know that feeling.

Never really thought it terms of class or tax bracket though, just decent people opposed to jerks.

Some of the highest "class" people have the lowest class.

Those are the models that seem to get the most attention, new, something not run of the mill: however there are two classes of "not run of the mill" A. true craftsmanship and B. Fancy fluff.

[chris coller]

I also think it depends on who is hosting the events. I have been to local shows and shows in Jersey, New York, Maryland, and obviously PA. I have had success and also have been a victim of the bias judging. But all in all I cant complain. I to view it as a social eventto get to know the other builders and talk shop.

The biggest thrill I get is having peole ask me how I did something, where I got something, etc. I will touch on some complaining I have witnessed even from a close builder friend of mine. But also mentioned areas of improvement he should work on just to clean up his work some. He is getting better and increasing his skills. Which is great cause it motivates me a s well.

All in all this is a great hobby that I have got to say has helped me get through tough times in my life. It also is a humbling experience at the same time. When I go to a contest and see some of the other talent that also is motivation to try new things, get ideas, and maybe just buils something I normally wouldnt build. Bottom line is build for yourself and enjoy the hobby. Take the "not winning a trophy and being upset attitude" and use that as possitive motivation to improve. There are alot of great builders out there to talk to and dont be affraid to ask questions!

[84vanagon]

All in all this is a great hobby that I have got to say has helped me get through tough times in my life. Bottom line is build for yourself and enjoy the hobby.

AMEN!

[Guest Davkin]

First off, I don't beleive contests are driving people out of the hobby. I beleive for every modeler that builds models for competition there have to be at least 20 that don't, never have and never will. I don't beleive there are enough competitive modelers to support the hobby shops and the model manufacturers all on their own, not by a longshot so even if competitive modeling is dying for the reasons you state Dave I don't beleive that's harbinger of the death of the hobby in general. Especially today when we can come together from all corners of the earth and share our passion for model cars with each other without even leaving our homes. Not to say message forums like this one are a complete replacement for model contests but I beleive that message forums allow far more people to enjoy the hobby "socially" than contests ever did or ever will.

I can only speak to my personal experience. I have participated in our local IPMS show for many years and the last few years also as a judge. I can say that most people that complain of bias in our case are just sore losers. I'll admit I have seen some bias, (we're all human, how can there not be some bias on occasion?) but in general the judging I've seen and participated in has been more than fair. In fact since our club was sponsoring the automotive categories I was extra careful when I knew I was judging a club member's model to make sure it really was better than the other models it was competing against. I have always tried to be very mindful of any potential bias in myself and I feel that the judges I have judged with did the same yet there are many that have claimed that we judge with bias towards models entered by members of our club, which is ironic given the fact that more often than not we awarded Best Automobile to a model that was not entered by a club member.

I don't get the trophy hounds myself, however I don't beleive in "spreading the wealth" either. To me that's a form of reverse bias. I think the best model should always win no matter how many times that builder has won in the past or how many great models he's entering in the current contest, if his models are the best they should get the awards. It's a competition and watered down competition accomplishes nothing IMO. If you don't like competition that's fine, hold an NNL style event, Unfortunately, while NNL style events have been very successful elsewhere, not so here. It seems like if awards are not being passed out nobody shows up around here. Not saying that's right or wrong, it's just the way it seems to be.

I am also perplexed by the attitudes of many of the builders however. First and foremost this is a hobby, we are not feeding the hungry or curing diseases or even making a living, (most of us anyway) by building models much less by winning awards for building models. There's no reason to have an ego or be secretive about our techniques. I'm fortunate to live in Salt Lake City where arguably the most presitgious model car competition is held every two years and I've been attending it for nearly 20 years, (back when it was held every year!) and I've discovered for the most part the modelers that most people would agree are the most talented in this hobby also have little or no ego and are very open and happy to share. My conversations with Dave Cummins and Jerry Cardinal have been especially memorable, no ego at all there and both answered every question I asked them with enthusiasm. They are the perfect example of how we should all treat our fellow modelers.

David

[LoneWolf15]

Dave ,

This topic is similiar to what I entered awhile back in the rant and rave section and I think it is an excellent topic to discuss until something gets ironed out . I've read what was posted on my segment and yours and spent alot of time thinking about it in between those two posts. While I don't always agree with the opinions expressed , I do have to respect them . Here is what I've come up with thus far.

To remove the taint of biased judging ... No member of the show host club should be allowed to enter models in the contest .

All shows should have a point system ...... So many points based on , detail , paint work , workmanship , and so on , based on a scale of 1 to 5 , 5 being the highest , then add them up. Highest total wins first place.

Clubs should educate their judges as to what they are looking at and what to look for in workmanship , scratch building , detail parts , etc.

Do not hold shows on the same days as the NNL events or other local shows.

These are nothing more than common sense rules / suggestions but would go a long way towards alleviating some of the problems. I believe that the reverse bias that someone mentioned in their post is one of the main problems that we are facing when it comes to the down turn in show attendance . Guys who work their tails off for months building exquisite pieces are punished for their efforts by the shows simply to appease those who refuse to better their skills. After several encounters with this , these guys walk away from the show tables , taking with them the reason we attend the shows, beautiful cars to view .

I learned very early on that if a show car does not do well after being entered in several shows , something is off . Either the car has several flaws which need to be addressed , or you need to take your building skills up a notch . I have attended shows for 7 years now. In that time frame , I have seen the same models on the tables , put there by the same individuals , honestly expecting to win . When they don't , they complain ! They need to build another model. Ill concieved paint schemes , glue on the windows , lack of detail , finger prints in the paint , paint work that any member of the citrus family would fall in love with ( orange peel ) , the list goes on and on . There are far too many modelers that attend these shows , who are more than willing to offer sage advice when asked, for this trend to continue . Alot of these modelers have blinders on that will never be removed . That is simply human nature!

Our hobby , for the moment , is suffering a down turn due to economics . I believe that this is playing a part in the lowering of the show attendance also . People are working more hours to make ends meet . They can't afford to drive 4 or 5 hours away to attend a show like they once did . That money is better spent on the family . The same goes for the purchasing of kits and modeling supplies and or detail parts. It is a vicious cycle that is eating the blue collar family alive.

Mediocrity sucks , we should not award it ! When one goes to a show , expect to win , or expect to get your tail kicked . If you win , great , if you don't , go home and build a better model for the next go around . Don't whine and cry about it . Yes , I have won my share of awards . However ,with what I have gained in friends , education , and companionship , in the modeling world , the awards are a minor thing in comparison. The modeling world will continue to grow , sometimes fast , other times , slow , the important thing , it is that it grows ! Whether you compete in the shows or not , we all should continue to push the envelope to improve our skills and help the newbies as much as we can. This way, we preserve the heritage and continue to improve on the thing that we all so love . Contests are an integral part of this growth that we need to preserve and protect.

Donn Yost

Lone Wolf Custom Painting

[Gregg]

Guys, please don't quote a full post or thread if you are just responding to the original post/thread

I do agree with Mr. Old Man for the most part.

He says it like it is.

I will ponder this one for the next few days.

I do agree with Dave, in most parts, and have a bunch of thoughts I have to pass through my legal, editorial, managerial, religious (oops, sorry, that one don't apply), metaphysical, and extra-terrestrial consultants, before I press the enter key.

This will be an interesting topic.

I may combine it with Donn's post earlier

[cruz]

I really like the thrill of competition and everything that has to do with voting for the best model on a table. I am not the best modeller in the world, God knows I still have a lot to learn but this hobby is about bettering yourself. If you lose one day and win on another, who cares. Unfortunately we have some people that only have one thing in mind and that is winning. I have met a lot of peolple in this hobby that when you are talking with them, everything you say does not matter but yet everything they have to say does. My mother always told me to listen more, speak less, people will like you more for that. What I really enjoy about this hobby is how far I have come and how much better I am doing now than say 5 or 7 years ago. I love to share my ideas as well as learn from so many talented individuals out there. I think that this is what it's all about, unfortunately you just have to work around some people but all in all I will not be bogged down with the negative side of this wonderful pastime. Now, who wants to go at it against me???? Double or nothing!!!!

[FloridaBoy]

THDave,

As usual, you have prepared a topical and relevant post that is provoking and thoughtful at the same time. I felt compelled to contribute to this thread, as I stongly feel that either I am an incarnate of you, or you of me, and s the rock group said, "you'be got to get through hell before you get to heaven". I am a long time builder and have been an active member of many clubs, some good, some great some average, and some below average. I have entered over 100 contests of every magnitude, local, national, IPMS, those in town and those out of town.

I want to state that competition is sorely needed to sustain this hobby. I have seen too many hobbies and sports just wither down when "artists" state that competition violates the progession of the art form. Examples of this are surfing, skateboarding, Hobie Cat sailing, model building of other items and on one era model car buiilding itself. I build for myself, but strive at all times to produce the best I can on each model, which means "contest" or "museum" quality. I do not participate in contests as my day has long passed, and would prefer to display my stuff rather than go for the hardware. i have nothing left to prove. That reflects my upbringing, as I have seen trophy hounds prostitute themselves just to take a trophy home, and it means NOTHING if your car isn't best. Second, I used to enter contests in the sixties, seventies and nineties even before the promoter purchased the awards, so whether it be hardware or a ribbon or placque, the win was the satisfying factor, that my model was relevant, well conceived and well built, in the eyes of my fellow model car builders.

I was a member of IPMS Flight 19 in the mid eighties and they had the same problems then down here as we are talking about now. So, one guy developed a 100 point scoresheet (for military or other models) 10 categories, 10 points each, covering workmanship, close to reality, finish, fit, judges wham-o and several other categories, and a few lines for comments by the judge. Several people picked up and copied this system, myself included and adapted it to model car judging, so any fervor would be addressed by the objectivity recorded on the sheets. After all how could one judge remember the details of every model, especially the ones that didn't win.

Also, I have seen the BEST and the WORST in almost every contest I participated. I agree that judges should not enter the contest he is judging, regardless of which categories he enters and does not enter and judge. Even when warranted, I judge every car using my personal system if one is not provided, and on one terrible night, I judged 160 cars on my own, contributing a page to every car with points and a narrative. I got home at 8AM on awards day, and fell asleep for two days. During the judging, one of the judges had cars entered in one of my categories, and was constantly harassing me, while at the same time I was doing my best to keep scores from his prying eyes. This very guy verbally attacked me during the following meeting, and I quit the club as the rest of the members stood silent in fear of this guy. I stood firm and produced my score sheets, which left him nothing to argue with except base anger.

Now this same club has heard my opinions about ways to cheat, as one member of this club did work, painted, glued and/or assembled the car or components for fellow members, then judged them to give himself credit, and then had the veracity to question me when I brought up the point. This guy actually institutionalized cheating in the club to give himself creds and props. But my presence as a unbiased adult and pioneer in the hobby, led to some changes, so they invented the "audience participation ballot" form of judging. The judges would be the people who attended, each attendee, whether or not entered, were given one ballot and while they looked, they voted. Again, this same guy devised how to beat the system. The other thing they did was to disallow props, or display placques, or even minidioramas and required all participants park their cars in a row like a mall parking lot. These led to fights for the "front" spaces, early registrations to get the primo spots, use of figures, or mini-props, moving other cars out of position, and then during the show, this same cheater guy who travelled from mid state brought his entire club and either predetermind winners, or stuffed the ballot box, or lobbied each attendee as to who to judge. I should know, because I was lobbied,and then my bias showed through, I voted for any car not his. I violated my own conviction.

I can sense some incoming and newly developed snobbery within the ranks of model car builders, as they are getting more and more close-mouthed, exclusive and fewer people are participating, even displaying.

Patrick Swayze in "Road House" told his band of bouncers that "It'll get worse before it gets better", and unfortunately I believe that. I will not enter any contests between here and Orlando for the reasons stated above, as there are people who were irritated at my judging, know my style, or even cross reference the # and the entry sheets, and have a vendetta. There are people who want to "beat a Willaman car" or just wait to see what I come up with, just so they can criticize it, as I have already received criticism (non constructive type) on projects I brought in process. One guy says he wants the prestige that goes with beating one of my cars. Grow up!!!! If it were a fair fight, I would probably go for it.

So, I have cut my ties to my club to clean out my brain and get creative again, building what I want to build, and how I want to build it. It is a shame we have reached this point, for we need all of the help we can get, as model car retail sources are slowing drying up. Instead of stimulating the interest, we seem to be killing it in self interest and ego gratification.

I like to display my stuff, as well as look at cars at contests, as I learn a ton from virtually every car there, and some times get validation on a wild and crazy idea when I see someone else tried it before me. I want to see more customizing, channelling, chopping, sectioning, and custom fronts and backs, in this age of Coddington and Foose, and others, so I show mine. Contests are great fun, if you open your head, open your heart, and communicate. after all, what are you trying to protect. My dad said to never get full of yourself because there is always someone who does it better.

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman

Edited December 9, 2008 by FloridaBoy

[E St. Kruiser50]

Now, who wants to go at it against me???? Double or nothing!!!!

EEEEEEHAH I'm game

Looser has to buy lunch and listen to all the winners "Old WAR HORSE STORIES" SNOOOOR

[Ramcharger]

Interesting topic. I go to contests because it forces you to get better. That's what competition does, it makes you better. It is hard to put all of your hard work on display and have it get a less than stellar reception and you think it's the greatest. You can learn from the experience or die from it. It also seems like it takes time to "break in" to the contest crowd and start winning. While you are getting to know the ropes and the people, your modeling skills are improving, this leads to winning. Seeing others work makes you better. It's hard to judge your own stuff, you have an incredible bias. After all, it is your best work. If you learn to be critical of your own work you will get better and win, a lot. This is not to say there aren't unfair contests, but take them for what they are. If that's what it takes for people to win a contest, so be it. Show up, socialize, and check out other people's cars, that is what the real contest is. A sharing of ideas. If you truly build for the joy of building it really won't matter if you win (although it's great when you do). Find joy in the true winners and ignore the fakes and people who just want to whine. Surround yourself with winners and you will become one, surround yourself with Bozos and you become a clown. That is my zen thought for the day!

[bobss396]

I build to wow the chicks.

Bob

[Chas SCR]

I just go to the shows to see old friends, But also to learn more things then trying to read it online in emails. Its a heck of alot easy'er when you can see it and talk to the person right there.

Dave I hope you bring your 36 Auburn to the GSL that is a nice looking car that I would love to see in person.

[Guest 66dragfreak]

I have been to many shows and contests over the years and there are some things I've noticed and discerned over the years I've spent in this hobby. Probably one thing that gets me more than anything else is when a club puts on a show and the members of said club enter their own work for judging. A majority of the time the judging, or at least some of the judging is done by the host club members. How you can not be biased toward members of your own club if you're judging a class one of your fellow members have entered? I honestly feel if a local club is putting on a contest, then the host club's models should not be considered for judging and subsequent awards. It is very discouraging to compete against members of the host club. Even if their work is better than the other work on the table, there will always be the feeling that the judging was slanted and inevitably, rumbling and accusations will eventually start to surface. The host club should have a display table for their members' work, but those projects should not be included in the judging. they should be for display only.

Secondly, it seems that every few years we have a new group of modelers new to the scene with new work, new ideas and they garner alot of exposure for their efforts. While that is fine, it can get very discouraging for modelers to go to shows and know they will be competing against so and so with their projects that are filled with machind aluminum, photoetch, and practically everything else on the market. Now, don't get me wrong. I love models detailed to that extent and I also enjoy undertaking such projects from time to time. But let's face it people, not everyone has either the talent or the money to invest in builds of this magnitude. Why not have a class for those that love to throw everything but the kitchen sink into their builds and have classes for the "regular" builders who like to build with a little added detail, but not to the extreme others so choose to build? I know if I was going to a show and was going to end up competing against a project that could practically start up and run on it's own and all I had was a kit built with maybe some underhood and chassis detail, I would think twice about going in the first place.

And, y'all can say what you want, but we ALL go to contests with the underlying hope that we may walk away at the end of the day with some hardware showing our efforts were appreciated and rewarded. While it may not be THE driving force, it is still nice to be recognized by your peers for your work and efforts. Otherwise, why go to the contests in the first place?

Probably one of the saddest things I see at shows I go to is when someone enters a project and they don't win, for whatever reason and they end up all upset and mad about it. I have seen it firsthand and have heard modelers actually rant about why their projects should have won and how sub-par the "competition" was. What's up with that ######? Did you ever stop to think that MAYBE people are just sick of seeing one or two people garner all the awards all the time at every show they go to? Maybe that box stock build you went up against had the basics of kit construction nailed to a "T" vs. your mega detailed build with wrinkled BMF, or excessive orange peel in the paint or an unrealistic finish on the body. Instead of degrading and knocking your competition, you should be extending your hand in congratulations to the winner for his or her efforts. While you're at it, take a closer look at the model you lost to. Find out WHY that model beat you and stop trying to build yours up to the one that you lost to. You might be surprised at what you'd learn.

I have judged shows and I have had to get down the finest detail between two superb builds to come away with a winner. It's a long process and it's gut wrenching when you have 2 models that are so well built that you have to get to the nuts and bolts of the build to decide which one should walk away with the award. That's one of the reasons I hate judging.

Finally, and this isn't a knock against any of the mags out there that cover this hobby, but just an observation. It seems we are exposed to the same builders issue after issue and that flows over to the show circuit as well. While I agree the mags need good, solid, quality articles from the masters of this hobby, it's also nice to see a variety of contibutors to the content we see in each issue. Just as it gets old seeing the same people in the mags, it gets old seeing the same models at show after show racking up award after award. While these cars and trucks may indeed be worthy of such accolades, as stated above, it gets discouraging for those attending to compete against projects that have already been in a feature article in a magazine. Many modelers might feel that with the prior exposure in a mag, their chances of winning have been drastically reduced simpyl because of the "Ooooohhhhhhhh Factor".

Again, these are just observations and I'm sure there will be those that disagree with my thoughts and that's ok. At the end of the day though, maybe we need to ask ourselves WHY we build. Do we do it for the recognition of our peers? Do we build for our own enjoyment? Regardless of the reason, when you start losing the fun factor, maybe it's time you start looking for another hobby.

Edited December 9, 2008 by 66dragfreak

[coopdad]

Finally, and this isn't a knock against any of the mags out there that cover this hobby, but just an observation. It seems we are exposed to the same builders issue after issue and that flows over to the show circuit as well. While I agree the mags need good, solid, quality articles from the masters of this hobby, it's also nice to see a variety of contibutors to the content we see in each issue. Just as it gets old seeing the same people in the mags, it gets old seeing the same models at show after show racking up award after award. While these cars and trucks may indeed be worthy of such accolades, as stated above, it gets discouraging for those attending to compete against projects that have already been in a feature article in a magazine. Many modelers might feel that with the prior exposure in a mag, their chances of winning have been drastically reduced simpyl because of the "Ooooohhhhhhhh Factor".

Sorry to break off topic but 66dragfreak, your question about the magazine "pre-exposure" got me thinking. What if we worked to everyone's advantage. Let me explain...

Many of us are not yet at the award-winning level or don't enter contests because we don't need hardware... but we do like a little praise every now and then... praise that is usually garnered at a show. Why not let the magazine help. I publish a couple automotive magazines where I print, in a special section of the mag, vehicles of all build levels, from junker to jewel. The only criteria is the photo be decent enough to print. The reasons are many so I will explain in the terms of a model magazine...

#1. the builder can show off his model in a real magazine, a model he is proud of even if it not award-winning (how cool is that?!).

#2. The other readers can get ideas for their projects from yet another source... not every great idea comes from models by the best craftsmen.

#3. The readers will feel a little more grounded... I can't be the only one that occasionally feels a little discouraged with my skills seeing PERFECT models all the time?

#4. The magazine gets regular content, less to try to fill on their own... it will come to them.

#5. The magazine will have another chance to sell an issue... who wouldn't buy at least one issue their model was in?

The only negatives I can think of are no one-on-one friendships made, but it sounds like that is happening less and less anymore.

Just a thought Gregg.

John

[E St. Kruiser50]

WOW!!

Just like Gregg, boy do I have a lot more to think about now.

Very insightful "Commentaries" in these responses. Hope to hear from even more.

Bob Paeth was a very good friend of mine especially in the last year of his life, and we spent a lot of time on the phone, 3 or 4 times a week some times, and ate together several times a month, and we had many long talks about this subject.

Man did I learn a lot from him about "Attitude" and "Enjoying Life".

Bob loved life and people, and just instinctively knew how to let most things just roll off his back with a grin.

Life's too short he'd say, just enjoy who ya can and let the rest go. Then he'd shrug his shoulders, tip his head with that impish grin and sorta threw his hands up in the air, like you see Italians do. And please don't somebody say I'm Dissing Italians here. I get so tired of people with a fragile self worth, whinning about this and that.

I'm part Italian, so get a life if all you can do is complain

Over the years I had to learn to take responsibility for myself and my bad attitudes. Yup, me too :ang

Pretty much had all the same problems were talkin' about here myself, and had to decide I wanted to change, and have a lot more friends, as I really love people, and I have some great friends in this hobby now. Some of the best people I ever met.

I keep wondering what their doing in my life, I don't feel like i deserve them, but I do treat them like "GOLD" and love on them, because I can't imagine life without them and don't want to !!

I've been tryin' harder and harder to really focus on being a better person for others sake, not just my own, but it's a struggle, I'm honestly not very good at this "Humble Stuff" myself, but my friends get in my face because I gave them permission to, and because they love me, Yeah, no kidden, Pretty amazing huh . They actually tell me they love me - Guy's do, and we're all straight . At least no one's pinched me yet

I think maybe that's a big part of the equation.

Caring as much or more for others, and honestly wanting to see them get really great help, win awards, and be as good as they would like to be.

Being really helpful here on line, and being encouraging and not "CRANKY" can go a long way in helping others and this hobby.

Never been a Editor/publisher, but even in a good economy, even a slight "BOBBLE" in the economy can have a significant affect, on subscription sales and advertising by clients.

Must be a huge "JUGGLING ACT", BETWEEN THE MAG, THIS FORUM, ALL THE SHOWS, KEEPING ALL THE "RIGHT PEOPLE HAPPY", not to mention trying to have some kind of sane personal life ????

I did own a business several years.

So think about it now when there is this "HUGE" downturn in the economy, that has to dramatically affect this hobby that is so insignificant, compared to the rest of the interest's and products for sale these days.

Add to that the bad attitudes and people leaving the hobby in pretty significant numbers to find friendlier faces, I'll bet all this has a significant impact on mag sales, as well as the kits.

I hope "FLORIDA BOY" is proud of me for the length of this post

I've come to the conclusion for myself, that like in most things, a good life is about ATTITUDE, ATTITUDE, ATTITUDE.

AND, that today's generation is "ALL ABOUT ME"

I grew up caring about other's. It's how we survived back then. We knew we needed other's to help us, and we all took turns as the need arose, to help other's. I still do that. It's how we were raised.

The solutions seems pretty simple - TO ME

Help other's

Have a nice attitude

Don't take life so serious

Laugh a lot more

Be a good friend

Be as honest as you can

Buy lot's of Model Car Magazine's

Several guy's here mentioned socializing, but it's hard to get to know people that are from all over the world.

Gregg, maybe in your mag, you could have a "BUILDER'S CORNER", that spotlight's a particular person in the hobby, past or present, (Yes Gregg, I like present's too )to make the hobby more personal, and put a face on a lot of the cool builds we see in the mags.

Seems like maybe in the past that the mags have focused a lot more on the hobby and the builds, which has been good, but maybe we need more of a balance. We don't necessarily need to hear all the time about the best builder's either. Personalities can go a long way too, and so can different types of contributors from the hobby.

Case in point - Bob Paeth. He was at best a mediocre builder all his life and hardly finished anything, but outshined most all the builders by his outstanding personality, what he brought to the hobby in his designs and his influance, and the way he cared for everyone - A tremendous legacy and positive role model for all of us.

Me personally, I would like to see an article about and builds by people like Art anderson, George Hernandez

(George53), Raul Perez, Bill Geary, Anthony Rios, ScrappyJ, Cal, Vanagon84, and on and on.

When you bring people together,even in a magazine, at least for me, it personalizes the hobby, and makes the people more real, and down to my level, especially if there are some everyday sorta facts included about their life, and if I see them at a show, all that gives me something to connect to them with, and easier to recognize and say "HEY"

Are all you "Long Winders" proud of me??

Hope this give's ya'll more to think on - dave