foghorn62

Nah?

I realize that I’m straying from topic here, but I sense that the topic is a little tongue in cheek, so here goes. Why bother to enter contests at all, if you don’t expect to, or at least hope to win something? The original founders of the NNL style shows intended for them to be a gathering of builders and models, meant to facilitate conversation, and exchange of ideas in a non competitive (ego) environment. Some people had a hard time doing away with the competitive aspect, so they decided (somewhat grudgingly for some) to have a “people’s choice award”, which is really only a popularity contest since everyone can vote. Most of those that are frequent contest winners admit that they usually put considerably more effort into builds that they are doing for those contests, than those that they are building just for display. TS

Model car contests used to be to encourage people to get into the hobby, and build model cars. During the MPC series in the late 60s, and 70s the sponsor started to become disenchanted when the same few people won most of the contests. They solved that by establishing a “pro class”. Anyone who made a portion of their living building models was ineligible for “Best in Show”. They could compete against each other for the “Best Pro” award. Seems like those that qualify for that award would be happy to show that their work stood out against the best of the best, but they were the ones who complained the loudest. What satisfaction is there in beating someones work that everyone already acknowledges is inferior to yours? TS

No restrictions on entries, but now days, if you hope to place, nothing smaller than 1/12. TS

Hi Francis! Thanks for chiming in! You are one of a select group of builders that I am aware of that are capable of approaching the level of detail that is competitive on an international level these days. The fact that you limit yourself to 1/25 scale makes it all that much more impressive in my book. I’m not really looking for an answer, but simply a discussion on the topic. At the next and last GSL, there will undoubtedly be some amazing builds in many scales, and sadly, since they only select one “Best in Show”, there will be several builders who have put their heart and soul into a build for hundreds of hours, disappointed. Maybe if they changed their award format a little, they could better address that. I know they choose like a top three, and then a final, but possibly it may be more appropriate to make it a “Great Eight”, or “Top Ten”, like they do in the 1/1 shows. I hear folks here and other places saying “I build as a hobby, I don’t build for awards”, or “if you’re building for a trophy, you’re missing the point”, but deep down, if they are trying to win and don’t, there is still a certain level of disappointment. I wish I would be able to go to Salt Lake City next year just to see what has been built, and talk with the many super talented builders that will be there. Unfortunately, that is not possible, for reasons that I think you are aware. I’ll have to be content to see the pics and read the stories after it’s over. Congratulations by the way on finally bringing your “heart and soul” project to completion Francis. It is truly amazing, and will undoubtedly bring tiers to many an eye when they realize that that is their competition at whatever shows you choose to attend with it. TS

You are correct there Steve. I missed that part. In the case of the Corvette, it does say that it is a prototype, which would indicate that they intend to sell them, and as you pointed out, the owners manual and gift pen would reinforce that. Certainly, the copies would not be eligible for contest entry, just as Danbury die cast models are not. The prototype on the other hand very well could be as long as it is primarily the work of an individual. My point remains the same though. Where do we draw the line? There are other large scale builds that you can bet cost a pretty penny and hundreds of hours to build. Hopefully something less than 30k, but $$ just the same. As I said earlier, with the amount of time since the last GCL, and the fact that the next one will be the final, you can bet that several builders will be pulling out all the stops. Who knows what they’ll be coming up with, and what is the likelihood that it will be something larger than 1/24 scale? TS

Sweet 3 window deuce Claude! I love that color! TS

This the one you bought Claude? Don’t you have a 1/1 something like that sitting in your garage?

All good points of course, but if you take a look at what has been competitive in those shows in more recent years, it doesn’t take a huge imagination to get there. I don’t think the builders have spent that amount of $$, but they haven’t been cheap either, and the machine skill level that they have achieved… I can imagine the the builder of the corvette may have had to shell out a few bucks for things like custom castings, machine work and so on. None of which comes cheap. If he didn’t cast the parts himself, or do all of the machine work himself, does that disqualify him?

Or 1/3? https://www.rccaraction.com/13-scale-gp-car-working-v16-engine-video/

Tom, I’ve always found your builds very pleasing! TS

What this particular person has or hasn’t done himself, isn’t really important since to my knowledge he hasn’t entered this model in a contest or asked to compete anyway. My point in starting this thread is to show what is possible in scale, and get people’s thoughts on how the larger scale builds should or shouldn’t be compared to the smaller ones. This person is not the only one that is building large scale models to this level. At some point, I wouldn’t be surprised if someone shows up with one at a contest. The next and final GCL, given the time since the last one, and the fact that it is the final one, may well be a place where we will see builds approaching that level, if not actually running V8s, or V16s. TS

Interesting question Jason. My thought is that it should be allowed, but the judges would definitely need to be on their toes to understand what it takes to build such a kit, what is included with the kit, and to what extent did the builder make improvements. I say that, because I know of at least one builder who has shared a lot of information online, and frequently rebuilds the parts that came with the kit and improves them immensely. He is not content to simply assemble the already highly detailed, difficult and expensive kit. He takes it to yet another level. TS

I agree with you there Bob! Francis is definitely in a league by himself. TS

Hello there Claude! Thanks for joining in on our discussion with your thought provoking insight. Heck, I’m give you two bucks U.S. for that kind of wisdom. Your point about the big buck builds taking over the large car show circuits is well stated. I guess you could apply similar logic to the model car shows. Maybe it’s just as well that the big national shows seem to be winding down, and the less competitive events such as NNLs, regional, and local filling the space. I think people have a need to hear that others enjoy their work. It encourages them to continue on, and even look for ways to improve. Otherwise, the realization that they just don’t have what it takes to be competitive on a national scale could become discouraging, and even cause them to drop out of the hobby all together. As for myself, I really prefer the concept of the NNL, where I can place my builds on the tables along side some really fine builds, meet and greet some really talented builders, gain knowledge from them, and maybe even share a tidbit or two with them. I have no desire to do a large scale build. At the pace that I build, I doubt I would ever finish it, and then where would I put it if I did? TS

Cheating is another issue altogether. Building large scale to be able to add more detail is certainly not cheating. My original point was that the large scale builds have a decided advantage over the smaller ones, and to what extent the size difference is considered when a judging. It’s very difficult to compare apples to apples at that point. TS

I was getting out of the hobby around the same time when the GSL and the NNL were in their infancy. The founders of those events were, and still are friends of mine. I recall a story that Mark G. has repeated occasionally about a builder who was on his way to Omaha having dropped off one of his builds to have Mark paint it for him so he could deliver it as his entry in the national finals in Omaha. No one knew about it until years later when both parties talked about it. These days, according to GSL rules, you are not even allowed to use a pre wired distributor in an entry at GSL. TS

No, I don’t think they are for sale. It is my understanding that the 30k is what it cost to build it, and I’m pretty sure that the guy showing it at least participated in its construction. I’ve seen other such models in quarter scale. I know there are several videos of a running V16 Auto Union out there. There are guys that build these things as a hobby. TS

You had me with you Steven, until that last statement. I don’t know what your definition of “model” is, but no where to my knowledge is it written that it has to come in a kit or be assembled by the purchaser. Most of the models that I build don’t come in kits. I build them myself, true, but you’ll never find them as a bunch of parts in a box. As far as I know, the person in the video that is showing the car at least participated in its construction. TS

I think Bob is getting at my point. I have seen amazing machined artistry in 1/25 scale, but never a running eight cylinder engine. The larger the scale, the easier it is to cram more detail into it. At what point do you give the nod to the smaller scale build due to the difficulty factor associated with its size? Along those lines, how do you compare 3D printed parts to machined parts, or even hand made parts? The 3D parts may look perfect, when compared to the machined or especially the hand made parts, but do you award the 3D printed parts higher marks because if that? TS

A friend if mine sent me this video the other day, and it reminded me of something that I’ve been thinking about recently. I’ve noticed what seems like a trend toward super detailed larger scale builds winning the top awards in the major competitions. They are true works of machining artistry to be sure, but I wonder how anyone entering a 1/24 or 1/25 scale build can ever hope to compete with these incredible creations. I’m curious what most folks think. Should well built smaller scale builds be judged with the same criteria as the large scale builds? Something else that I have noticed is the trend away from creativity, and toward replica builds. I first started participating back in the early 70s in the MPC Model Car Customizing Contests, first as a competitor, and later as a judge/administrator. The active word there is “Customizing”, because the sponsor was looking for ideas for their line of kits, so originality was encouraged and rewarded with special awards like “Best Originality”. The highly detailed large scale contest winners these days seems to lack in that feature. When building replicas, there is little room for originality. Don’t get me wrong, I marvel at the detail and talent put into these awesome builds, but at the same time, I think originality seems to have taken a back seat, if not completely disappeared. Where is the line drawn? The “model” in this video appears to be perfect in every way, to the point where it actually runs on pump gas, blows smoke out the tail pipe, has working air conditioning, and a Corvette price. It is 1/4 scale, cost $30,000 to build, and is lacking in one thing. Originality. TS IMG_1320.MOV

You are correct Paul. The boat is the Gar Wood Miss America VIII, with twin 1800hp Miller V16s built in 1929. It ran 104mph in 1932!

Thanks for your comments David, and for following along! This is Paul’s thread, I have just been kind of piggybacking along with my build. I’m just enjoying the overall theme of massive horsepower an classic wooden boats, and tow combos! TS

Paul, a very cool thing about these boat projects is that you can let your imagination run wild with regard to your engine choice. I’ve said it before, your engine is a beast! Amazing the way you have put it together! Of course, you really need something like that in a 30’ boat! People have been doing these kind of things for years, and each one more outrageous than the last. Here is a pic of one of the power boats that was built around the 1930s. Check out the twin v16s! I would love to here that thing run!

Thank you Paul! Yes definitely the engines (2) will be visible. You can see in the first pic above where I have hacked out some of the braces behind the pilot seat. The ones that I removed were part of the Dumas kit and weren’t at all accurate for the original Chris Craft. Of course, the kit didn’t have any engines at all, so I am going to use my own artistic license and install two Chevy LS3 V12s. I’m still working on a design for the mounting structure. I’m also planing to but in a cooling system that should look pretty cool, kind of like the ones that I posted earlier in your thread.