Any chemists out there?

[Art Anderson]

From what I understand, Ford and William Durant of GM were both ethanol proponents, Ford enough so thst the Model T was the first mass produced flex fuel vehicle as well as set up classes to teach their owners how to make their own hemp based ethanol to fuel their new Model T's with.

For starters, hemp wasn't grown industrially in any quantity until WW-II, when the Japanese conquests in the Southwest Pacific Ocean (Indian Ocean too) pretty much cut off the supply of hemp for rope making (hemp rope was then an absolute necessity for just about every naval force in the entire world, not to mention merchant shipping!). Even at that, the emphasis on farming hemp was centered primarily in northern Indiana and northern Illinois, which produced a grade of hemp inferior to that which had come from India and other regions in far southern Asia. As a result of that encouraged cultivation, we still fight a battle against so-called "ditch weed" here, as the stuff spread like wildfire (I well remember having to pull the BLAH_BLAH_BLAH_BLAH out of the ground at the back of the lot in West Lafayette 50-60 years ago, pile it in Dad's trashburning cage, and setting it on fire--I knew what burning pot smelled like well before it became the recreational drug it is today!

Actually, Henry Ford briefly considered promoting ethanol as a motor fuel--made from corn, the economics of which he understood pretty well, having grown up on a farm very close to Dearborn MI--but he soon gave up on that idea and with good reason: It took a LOT more acreage to grow a bushel of corn a century ago than it does today--probably 3-4 times as much. My dad, who grew up on a very fertile farm in Benton County IN (some of the most fertile farmland on the planet!), explained to me in the early 1970's that in Henry Ford's day the bushel per acre yield of corn was about 15% of what it was in 1970, and while that yield has gone up tremendously since then, it's still a very costly proposition--made possible only by the ever widening uses for corn today.

What Ford did to, was to show what could be done with soybeans--and it was Professor George Washington Carver, teaching and researching at Tuskegee Institute, what could be made from soybeans--which in his time were an exotic crop imported here from--CHINA. A 1940 Ford Deluxe, the version modeled by both AMT and Revell, had as most of it's dashboard and interior trim, plastic parts (in 1940, plastic was the exotic, the new, the high tech thing!) made from soybean oil. Henry Ford, the former farm boy from SE Michigan, never really forgot his rural roots, and he did aim much of his thinking toward farmers.

Art

[Greg Myers]

WWII

[Greg Myers]

Ol' Henry wackin' a Soybean body panel http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2011/01/13/from-fords-plastic-car-we-got-imitation-meat/ Fords plastic car

Edited April 11, 2015 by Greg Myers

[Ace-Garageguy]

... Hydrogen can be gotten by breaking down water, but that's not exactly energy efficient either--it takes a LOT of electricity to produce hydrogen in that way, at least to this point...Perhaps someday, the "magic bullet" will be discovered or created that does it, but it ain't there yet.

...Some day, who knows when or how far out in the future, SOMEBODY is going to figure out how to make a combustible fuel for automotive engines that is both energy-profitable (meaning that the input of energy is significantly less than the energy output of the end product--something that is still very illusive in today's technologies), but until that time comes, most all the schemes for creating synthetic fuels is at best an even trade of one form of energy for another.

Art

May I point out again, for the dozenth or so time, that a simple photovoltaic solar array on the roof of a house can split wastewater and rainwater into hydrogen and oxygen, using only 100% free sunlight for its energy input.

A household-sized unit can easily produce enough hydrogen fuel daily to power an "average" car on the "average" daily commute.

Yes, the array costs money, but the prices are dropping rapidly for this technology, and the payback is much quicker than anyone seems to realize...and with widespread implementation it could become very cost-effective.

Compressed natural gas is also an ideal motor vehicle fuel, Which Art mentioned in passing. I was HEAVILY involved with the development of the tech back in the mid 1990s. Unfortunately, the prevailing "wisdom" in the country preferred to take the cheap expedient of generating electricity by burning natural gas rather than take a little more effort and clean up the coal-fired plants...which is entirely possible using currently available tech too.

And now that gasoline is relatively cheap at the pump again, nobody gives a rat's rear about planning and developing rational alternatives for when the tap finally runs dry. WHICH IT WILL.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy

[aurfalien]

Well, my family over in Serbia and Bosnia modded there cars to run on a Slivovitza which is a plum brandy they make as well.

We'd get drunk on the stuff, then get in the car, noticed it was on empty and simply put a bottle or 2 in the gas tank and drive around. Was a blast.

Funny though, we'd strip paint with Slivovitza as well. Then there's this stuff called Stomaklia guaranteed to knock out any stomach ache or gas. I was afraid to ask what it was made of.

Edited April 11, 2015 by aurfalien

[Aaronw]

Yes, the array costs money, but the prices are dropping rapidly for this technology, and the payback is much quicker than anyone seems to realize...and with widespread implementation it could become very cost-effective.

Solar panels have dropped in price from $77/watt in the 1970s, to about $0.74/watt today. Recent demand and improved manufacturing techniques have cut the cost tremendously. Solar panels stabilized at $7-10/watt through the late 80s and 90s eventually dropping as low as $5/watt in 2008. From 2008 to now the prices have plummeted by 80%, and it is estimated that costs will drop another 40% by 2017.

The EPA has estimated the average grid tie system will pay for itself in 5 years (modern solar panels have a 20-25 year life expectancy). The costs have dropped so much that even full off grid systems (panels, inverter, batteries) is cost effective when compared to getting your power from the grid.

[aurfalien]

Those are interesting numbers.

I wonder if any are due to government subsidies, tax breaks etc...?

[Aaronw]

Indirectly. Subsidies have led to increased demand, which have led to reduced cost, but the prices quoted do not include government assistance. So not only have the prices plummeted, but you can still get tax breaks and direct subsidies to help offset the lower cost of going solar.

The Chinese play a part as well. They were trying to undercut the solar market, but instead of driving everyone else out of the market, it led others to find cheaper / more efficient ways to make solar panels. Solar had not seen a lot of change in basic technology over the years. When the Chinese tried to artificially drive the cost down it led to a new push to develop the technology. Lighter, cheaper, more efficient and less resource heavy solar panels have been developed in the past decade to compete with cheap Chinese panels.

Also worldwide use of solar has nearly tripled over the past 5 years, and as with anything as production increases the cost to manufacture goes down.

[aurfalien]

Wow, nice info Aaronw, thanks! You seem very well versed on the subject, are you in the energy sector?

[Aaronw]

Wow, nice info Aaronw, thanks! You seem very well versed on the subject, are you in the energy sector?

No, I work at an off grid fire station out in the forest that runs on a generator. I've done a lot of research over the past 2 years looking for alternatives to burning 8-10 thousand gallons of propane every year (plus an unholy racket that really ruins the whole working in the forest thing). Solar was the best option we found and it has been estimated to save the government at least $10,000/yr. The proposal was successful and I've been told they expect to break ground on it sometime this summer or fall.

Solar was our best option, but there are also some pretty neat developments in low volume / high pressure hydroelectric power. I visited a small resort (8 or 10 small cabins) in Northern California that gets all of its electricity from a small hydroelectric system powered by the runoff from a spring on a hillside about 500 feet above the resort. The power generation is pretty low tech, about 800 feet of 3/4" pipe and a water wheel about 6" in diameter. Due to the elevation the water comes into the system at around 200 psi so generates a lot of energy with a small amount of water. The water is then diverted to their water filtration system and storage tanks so not only provides their power, but also eliminates the need for a well.

[aurfalien]

Wow!

Congrats on your proposal being approved, very very cool.

Very very cool info indeed. Thanks for the education.