When Did "nnl" Events Become Contests?

[Ariel]

I know that I am not frequent builder and sometime not even finish a build because I am to crittical of my own builds.

But some people should be greatful for NNL style shows. If they would be in a judged show and they took into consideration.

Not putting the name on the ballot in front of the car. With all the stuff that people scratch build and is out of scale the paints that seam to be painted with a brush on the engine bays.

Other things that are fishing lures and should be in the sci-fi section of a contest. Race cars with seat belts attached in

the incorrect pionts. If we was to judge 1290 cars and give them pionts on paint, quality of build etc it would take 2-3 days

for the NNL East alone. Lets just be happy and build and like my buddy Tommy always says

"ITS AN F'IN HOBBY SO JUST BUILD YOUR F'IN MODELS"

If it wasn't for these types of shows our hobby would be dead. we wouldn't even see some of the ideas that people have but would be critizise in some other type of show. Alot of people come out to an NNL because of the laid back format.

I have raced R/C cars and slot cars because of the competition you don't even see people getting together and having this kind of fun.

I still can't remember posing for some of these photos and I was the designated driver. I don't even know who won best of show. I know who won the themes because we all belong to the same clubs(as in plural)

and always remember what my friend tommy always says.

Edited April 16, 2008 by Ariel

[Nick F40]

IMO having SA select 2 of my models for pictures beats any trophy I could have brought home.

me too

I have been around NNLs since the beginning and except for maybe the first two ever held there was always a vote for best theme, best in show, etc. Harry! Don't go hating on us NNLers!

Weren't you one of the founders or something like that?

"don't go hating on us NNLers!" THAT is funny!

Except for the bitching, of course!

We are all humans! There would be something terribly wrong if we were not bitching about something. I find it humorous that you relax with Mr. O'reilly who is a master of bitching about what he dislikes!

This is meant to be humorous. Please don't bitch about it.

Andy Martin

[Lyle Willits]

I've read all of the above post and I've decided that we are still going to call our show the Mid-Atlantic NNL. We are still going to award several trophies in different categories by popular vote. We will still have the back door of the Armory open all day because there is no damned air conditoning. The place will still smell like a locker room (in the opinion of some). I will still run around like a chicken with it's head cut off trying to correct all the things that, invariably, go wrong. People will still try to sneak in the back of the building instead of paying the entry fee at the front door and I will still threaten to beat their face into the pavement if they don't leave immediately. People will still bitch about the door prize they won or the poor quality of the sound system (which I rent, out of my own pocket every year). Someone will bitch that we don't have a table for their particular diorama and they're too damned upity to put it on the "miscellanious" table. People will still leave built models behind on the tables when the show is over and we will have to ship the model back to them, if we can figure out who it belongs to. Vendors will still beg me to allow them to pay for their tables at the show, and then not show up, so that we have empty tables in the middle of the vendor room. Oh yeah,,,,and people will get angry at me, personally, if a certain vendor doesn't show up. Most people will vote for their own model in each category so that we have about 400 entry numbers with ONE VOTE EACH. Two or three people who received the most votes in a particular category will leave the show long before the trophies are awarded and we have to ship or deliver the trophy to them. Someone will track me down to complain that one of the toilets in the women's room is backed up, as though I can do sometrhing about that in a government facility on a Saturday. I will recieve, in the mail, door prizes from generous vendors who could not attend the show,,,,,,,on the Monday after the show. And why do we do this?

BECAUSE IT'S FUN!!!!!

[camaroman]

I've read all of the above post and I've decided that we are still going to call our show the Mid-Atlantic NNL. We are still going to award several trophies in different categories by popular vote. We will still have the back door of the Armory open all day because there is no damned air conditoning. The place will still smell like a locker room (in the opinion of some). I will still run around like a chicken with it's head cut off trying to correct all the things that, invariably, go wrong. People will still try to sneak in the back of the building instead of paying the entry fee at the front door and I will still threaten to beat their face into the pavement if they don't leave immediately. People will still bitch about the door prize they won or the poor quality of the sound system (which I rent, out of my own pocket every year). Someone will bitch that we don't have a table for their particular diorama and they're too damned upity to put it on the "miscellanious" table. People will still leave built models behind on the tables when the show is over and we will have to ship the model back to them, if we can figure out who it belongs to. Vendors will still beg me to allow them to pay for their tables at the show, and then not show up, so that we have empty tables in the middle of the vendor room. Oh yeah,,,,and people will get angry at me, personally, if a certain vendor doesn't show up. Most people will vote for their own model in each category so that we have about 400 entry numbers with ONE VOTE EACH. Two or three people who received the most votes in a particular category will leave the show long before the trophies are awarded and we have to ship or deliver the trophy to them. Someone will track me down to complain that one of the toilets in the women's room is backed up, as though I can do sometrhing about that in a government facility on a Saturday. I will recieve, in the mail, door prizes from generous vendors who could not attend the show,,,,,,,on the Monday after the show. And why do we do this?

BECAUSE IT'S FUN!!!!!

And that is why we all love it Lyle!!!!

[Raul_Perez]

I've read all of the above post and I've decided that we are still going to call our show the Mid-Atlantic NNL. We are still going to award several trophies in different categories by popular vote. We will still have the back door of the Armory open all day because there is no damned air conditoning. The place will still smell like a locker room (in the opinion of some). I will still run around like a chicken with it's head cut off trying to correct all the things that, invariably, go wrong. People will still try to sneak in the back of the building instead of paying the entry fee at the front door and I will still threaten to beat their face into the pavement if they don't leave immediately. People will still bitch about the door prize they won or the poor quality of the sound system (which I rent, out of my own pocket every year). Someone will bitch that we don't have a table for their particular diorama and they're too damned upity to put it on the "miscellanious" table. People will still leave built models behind on the tables when the show is over and we will have to ship the model back to them, if we can figure out who it belongs to. Vendors will still beg me to allow them to pay for their tables at the show, and then not show up, so that we have empty tables in the middle of the vendor room. Oh yeah,,,,and people will get angry at me, personally, if a certain vendor doesn't show up. Most people will vote for their own model in each category so that we have about 400 entry numbers with ONE VOTE EACH. Two or three people who received the most votes in a particular category will leave the show long before the trophies are awarded and we have to ship or deliver the trophy to them. Someone will track me down to complain that one of the toilets in the women's room is backed up, as though I can do sometrhing about that in a government facility on a Saturday. I will recieve, in the mail, door prizes from generous vendors who could not attend the show,,,,,,,on the Monday after the show. And why do we do this?

BECAUSE IT'S FUN!!!!!

Thanks for the chuckle, Lyle!! It's true, reality makes a better read than anything someone can makeup. That was GREAT!!

[Modelmartin]

Lyle,

The Mid-Atlantic NNL sounds like a ###### fine show! I wish I didn't live so far away which makes it very difficult to attend. Perhaps one of these days I will. I can relate to everything you mentioned! Our NNL North has experienced most of it. Our favorite was a lady who was always trying to make sure her hubby won something by bussing in friends to vote for his models, etc. We changed the voting system every year to foil her!

Andy Martin

[Billy Kingsley]

Harry, you've never actually BEEN to an NNL, have you?

I'm guessing if you had, you would never have made this post, because you'd already know the answer.

I can't personally speak for all the NNLs out there, but I've been to the NNL East 8 years now and the NNL Nationals in Toledo 5 years. (Which is at the MINIMUM an 11 hour drive, usually more.) I'm going to try my darndest to get the Mid-Atlantic NNL this year as well. I've also been to contests, in fact I'm leaving for one this weekend, MASSCAR, which I've been to since 2004. I've also made several trips to LIARS, a judged contest, and even stopped in at the IPMS Nor-East Con last year, as it was within 20 minutes of where I live.

There is no similarity between both styles of shows, other then the fact that you see most of the same people and most of the same models.

At NNLs, people put their models on the table to show what they've done, speak to like-minded builders and just basically have a good time, not to mention spend more money then they should in the vendor room.

At judged contests, the primary focus is to win awards. Period. Seeing friends and talking about models is, indeed secondary. The vendors are usually more local and more towards kits, instead of aftermarket vendors as well. Multiple awards are handed out, and it is based on a team of judges, NOT your peers as builders.

Both events are fun, but the NNLs are usually the best days of the year-and no awards could top that. They are NOT contests, as they are not judged. The only people that handle the models are the builders themselves, when they are putting them out, picking them up, or showing off some sort of detail to a friend. Judges do not handle the model to try and find some sort of flaw that makes the other model better then yours-or yours better then someone else's. No one uses flashlights and "no one" has hard feelings at an NNL.

It's funny-whenever this topic comes up-usually after every major NNL-it's posed by someone who has either never been to an NNL, or has been and is suffering from sour grapes thinking that everyone should have liked his model better.

I don't think that there is a coincidence that 99% of the time it's from someone who's never been to one.

[Maliburacr]

I can see the "PEOPLES CHOICE" thing, but IMO the term "BEST OF SHOW" shouldn't be used at an NNL type of show.

[Ariel]

You basically sumed up the entire Philly Club in your rant

But don't worry POPs we still love you anyways. Its great that you can remember all these things.

[gkulchock]

I've read all of the above post and I've decided that we are still going to call our show the Mid-Atlantic NNL. We are still going to award several trophies in different categories by popular vote. We will still have the back door of the Armory open all day because there is no damned air conditoning. The place will still smell like a locker room (in the opinion of some). I will still run around like a chicken with it's head cut off trying to correct all the things that, invariably, go wrong. People will still try to sneak in the back of the building instead of paying the entry fee at the front door and I will still threaten to beat their face into the pavement if they don't leave immediately. People will still bitch about the door prize they won or the poor quality of the sound system (which I rent, out of my own pocket every year). Someone will bitch that we don't have a table for their particular diorama and they're too damned upity to put it on the "miscellanious" table. People will still leave built models behind on the tables when the show is over and we will have to ship the model back to them, if we can figure out who it belongs to. Vendors will still beg me to allow them to pay for their tables at the show, and then not show up, so that we have empty tables in the middle of the vendor room. Oh yeah,,,,and people will get angry at me, personally, if a certain vendor doesn't show up. Most people will vote for their own model in each category so that we have about 400 entry numbers with ONE VOTE EACH. Two or three people who received the most votes in a particular category will leave the show long before the trophies are awarded and we have to ship or deliver the trophy to them. Someone will track me down to complain that one of the toilets in the women's room is backed up, as though I can do sometrhing about that in a government facility on a Saturday. I will recieve, in the mail, door prizes from generous vendors who could not attend the show,,,,,,,on the Monday after the show. And why do we do this?

BECAUSE IT'S FUN!!!!!

Lyle: I've been there, and done that, and you hit the nail on the head. Thanks for the laugh.

I've just been sitting back reading all the rants and raves now, was not going to put my 2 cents in, ...... but what the heck.

I think Billy nailed it here. Like him, I love NNL's. I like building models for the Theme classes just because it gives me a deadline, and I may actually get something finished and on the table. Do I think awards should be handed out at an NNL? Why not. This is truly up to the organizers of the event, the club who slaves to make sure we all have a great time, and if they feel like giving out a chunk of engraved maple or two, fine. If there were no awards, I'd still be there, displaying what I like to build, and sharing how I did it to anyone who wants to know. Where else can you go to see over 1700 models, and meet their most talented builders in the country? I do agree that the awards should not be called "Best-of" because who is to judge if they are the "Best". "Peoples Choice" should be the term used at all NNL events, and if a slammed Ford that took 10 hours to build gets the "Peoples Choice" over a fully detailed Mopar, fine! After all it is the “peoples choiceâ€.

If you think there should be no hardware given out, as I’ve said before and repeat after me, FINE, nobody is twisting your arm to stay if you don't care for that portion of the event. Maybe a little box should be added to the "Parking Space" that states, "Model for display only: Place no Votes"

OK I’m done. Finally, I am grateful to have the NNL events, and to have the opportunity to meet the people I've always looked up to in the hobby. This show alone I got to add dozens to this list, as well as seeing those I've met in the past. I can't wait till the Mid Atlantic NNL in 3 weeks, for the opportunity to meet more of this hobbies fine modelers and there creations.

As Lyle said: ......why do we do this? BECAUSE IT'S FUN!!!!

[Harry P.]

Harry, you've never actually BEEN to an NNL, have you?

I'm guessing if you had, you would never have made this post, because you'd already know the answer.

Whether or not I've ever personally been to one of these is totally irrelevant to my post. And I'm not passing judgement on these events or the people who go to them!

My question was simply this: why do "NNL" type events claim that they're "for fun" and "non-competitive" and yet they have winners and awards like "Best in Show", the "Acme Aftermarket Company Award", the "People's Choice Junoir Class Award", the "People's Choice Senior Class Award", etc., etc. It was just a question I had regarding an issue that makes no sense to me.

You can't have it both ways. You can't have a "non-competitive" event where winners are determined and awards are handed out! It's like saying we're going to play a friendly pick-up game of basketball just for fun, no competition...but hey, make sure you keep score so we know who the winner is! The fact that "non-competitive" events apparently have "winners" and hand out awards to those "winners" got me wondering how that contradictory way of thinking came about...that's all!

That's ALL! No bashing, no personal attacks on NNLs or the people who attend them. There is no issue of "sour grapes" here...I wasn't at the show and didn't have any models of mine on display, so I wasn't in line to win anything. I was just asking a simple question!!!

Ok, that's all from me on this. Sorry I ever brought it up, cuz apparently some of you are VERY sensitive (and defensive) about this.

[Ariel]

Your Enzo build is one of my all time favorites.

[Billy Kingsley]

But it IS relevant Harry. As I eluded to in my post, people who havn't been to NNL events just simply don't know what they are all about-they've never been there so they CAN'T know what it's all about. It's something that, if/when experienced in the flesh, makes perfect sence.

By the way, the reason you've gotten so much negative responce is that you're pretty much tearing apart what makes an NNL an NNL. NNLs thrive because they are NOT contests, and suggesting that they are rightly ticks off a lot of people.

And, as I contest-those who have been to an NNL-would already know that.

Another bit of food for thought-isn't a gathering of people where no awards are handed out just a club meeting?

[gkulchock]

Your Enzo build is one of my all time favorites.

I thank you. It was quite fun for me also.

[Jason Rothgeb]

Many people looked at my Ford Interceptor model and had no idea what it was. I had a great time explaining it, what it was and how I made it. The same with my cutaway Corvette. The point is, I went there for me, not awards. It is an opportunity to share my hobby with others and maybe have a positive influence on someone wanting to get into the hobby.

I wanted to respond to this passage in your post for a couple of reasons: First, thanks for bringing that Vette to the show. I loved it. At a show, certain models just jump out at you and begged to be noticed. The Vette was such a car for me. The only bad thing about shows like this is that it's impossible to see all the cars and talk to the people who built them. Thanks to this forum and this post, I can say I enjoyed looking at your car and was impressed with your skill as a modeler.

The second reason is that I think at least 75% of the people who attend NNL's would agree with sentiment expressed in the passage above. There are awards handed out, but even for the guys who have a shot at winning them, they are secondary, tertiary, or even further down the list than that. It's about sharing and the fellowship of other modelers. I know that sounds corny, but it's true. So Peter, try to attend next year, and I will as well to show off what I've done and I'll eagerly check out the 1000+ projects that everyone else has finished. And if we're both wearing our Model Cars nametags (Thanks Greg). We might even get to say Hi to each other. Jason

As a P.S. I only submitted a partial ballot for the awards. I feel it's important for Juniors to receive feedback and reinforcement for the cool stuff they are doing, so I voted for that. And I voted for the best '49 Merc since it was a small category and I looked over the entire field. So I did not even vote for a Best in show. Also, I bet I was not the only one too distracted to submit a complete ballot (or one at all).

[Nick F40]

I thank you. It was quite fun for me also.

ahhh man, that thing is sick! I loved that thing!

Oh Lyle, that's good that you can remember, it's nice.

[lordairgtar]

As a member of a club that puts on an NNL event, I have to say that the voting for your favorite theme model or whatever other classes they have really doesn't wander to far from what an NNL is. It's still not judged and it is still low-keyed and a fun thing to do. It really isn't a contest. I enjoy them and all the people that come. I get to meet interesting "nameless luminaries" from all over the region and some outside the region. I feel it's just like the real car shows I attend that have participant voting. Those cars are not really judged to a set criteria, but are selected by individual people who happened to be impressed with one particular car. Of course, there are cruise nights were you just hang out with no voting or judging, but there is always the one car that has the crowd of people around it. Getting the chance to talk with builders and see their work up close is the main point of the NNLs and the voting is just a perk. I rarely have a car on display because I build so infrequently that everyone has seen my cars at one time or another, so I'm in it for the camaraderie. but next year.....

[Mike]

I'll take a stab at it. I've never been to an NNL event, but seeing that there are not judges, and the builds are not judged, pretty much eliminates it as a contest IMHO. People show up to show off their builds based on what I've seen in the magazines etc. It's very much like a car show to me. The cars (locally anyway) are not judged, but all the people coming through the door get to vote on what car they liked best. Note, it's still called a Car SHOW. Bottom line, 6 of 1 or 1/2 dozen of the other. It's in the perspective of the individual

On a similar/contrary note, the Olympic Games would be a place where awards are given for 1st=3rd and are judged, yet the Olympics are seen as a "world event" not a contest.

[j_nigrelli]

be cool, man.

don't you know?

we're ALL winners!

[evilone]

well i cant here the crickets anymore they were chased off so ill say it

RIOT first one to throw punches will get a jail sentence

im just messing around woth you guys i cant say anything because i didnt go LOL

[tim boyd]

Harry asks a good question.

I was one of the organizers of the original NNL, and also one of the organizers of the first NNL events on the west coast.

The original NNL's did not have awards. Of any sort. It was against the spirit of the event.

After a few years most of the organizers of the original NNL event in Ohio simply didn;t have the time to do it any more, so one of the model clubs that included several of the participants from the early shows took over. Over time they put their "print" on the show, and part of that was that as the event grew, some of the newcomers wanted awards of some sort. I and several of the origniators did not like this idea, but we werent't the ones putting the organizing effort in any more. Fortunately the club decided to make the awards "popular vote" rather than judged, which would have been totally against the spirit of the originators.

Things evolve. If I was still an organizer I would argue against any award. But as long as there are only a couple of awards, and they are by popular vote, then it doen't take away from what are terrfic modeling events, ones that now take place all across the world.

BTW Andy Martin, who posted above on this subject, was also at the first ever NNL event.....TIM BOYD

[tim boyd]

Harry asks a good question.

I was one of the organizers of the original NNL, and also one of the organizers of the first NNL events on the west coast.

The original NNL's did not have awards. Of any sort. It was against the spirit of the event.

After a few years most of the organizers of the original NNL event in Ohio simply didn;t have the time to do it any more, so one of the model clubs that included several of the participants from the early shows took over. Over time they put their "print" on the show, and part of that was that as the event grew, some of the newcomers wanted awards of some sort. I and several of the origniators did not like this idea, but we werent't the ones putting the organizing effort in any more. Fortunately the club decided to make the awards "popular vote" rather than judged, which would have been totally against the spirit of the originators.

Things evolve. If I was still an organizer I would argue against any award. But as long as there are only a couple of awards, and they are by popular vote, then it doen't take away from what are terrfic modeling events, ones that now take place all across the world.

BTW Andy Martin, who posted above on this subject, was also at the first ever NNL event.....TIM BOYD

[tim boyd]

Harry asks a good question.

I was one of the organizers of the original NNL, and also one of the organizers of the first NNL events on the west coast.

The original NNL's did not have awards. Of any sort. It was against the spirit of the event.

After a few years most of the organizers of the original NNL event in Ohio simply didn;t have the time to do it any more, so one of the model clubs that included several of the participants from the early shows took over. Over time they put their "print" on the show, and part of that was that as the event grew, some of the newcomers wanted awards of some sort. I and several of the origniators did not like this idea, but we werent't the ones putting the organizing effort in any more. Fortunately the club decided to make the awards "popular vote" rather than judged, which would have been totally against the spirit of the originators.

Things evolve. If I was still an organizer I would argue against any award. But as long as there are only a couple of awards, and they are by popular vote, then it doen't take away from what are terrfic modeling events, ones that now take place all across the world.

BTW Andy Martin, who posted above on this subject, was also at the first ever NNL event.....TIM BOYD

[Daniel Peterson]

Another bit of food for thought-isn't a gathering of people where no awards are handed out just a club meeting?

This just gets more complicated. We often have awards given out at our club meetings...now what are we supposed to call them?!

[Zoom Zoom]

Thanks for the insider insight, Tim!

More food for thought: NNL's are the antithesis of the "rivet counter" mentality seen at contests.

Here we are splitting hairs and counting rivets between NNL's and contests. Hmmmmm....think I'll go back to my workbench, got a lot of good painting/detailing accomplished in the last couple of hours