A bit curious

[Flat32]

I'm new to this forum and it's a great place with many dedicated and highly skilled modelers.  I find it a bit curious that there's not more representation of old traditional hot rods.  I was hoping to find a category specific to them.  Also, I haven't found any references to the moldmakers that do the tooling for these fantastic kits.  I spent quite a few years tooling up and manufacturing auto related parts involving stamping, injection molding and die-casting.  Even tires and tubes for bicycles and lawn and garden equipment.  Lived in Taiwan for twenty years doing this.  When I look at a "tree" my mind goes immediately to wondering how the molds were made and how they are now being made.  I've been a toolmaker by trade and made a few relatively simple molds.  I always felt like the product got all the glory and the tooling ignored.  Even the engineers whose products I had tooled didn't understand how tooling got made.

Now I'm beginning to build a model instead of just making parts.  I admire the scratch builders and the fine detail guys whose skills I only wish I had.  I can make a raw part, but use machines to do it.  CAD, 3d printing, plaster and silicone molds and CNC mill work I learned after retirement.  I will pursue photo etching  at some point, but after getting off the ground with my investment casting and spincasting learning projects.  I may never get a complete model built.

[1930fordpickup]

They try to keep the topics as they are to keep it simple. You will get used to it in time.  

Less work for the Moderator to do, So they can have fun also. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

7 hours ago, Flat32 said:

I'm new to this forum and it's a great place with many dedicated and highly skilled modelers.  I find it a bit curious that there's not more representation of old traditional hot rods.  I was hoping to find a category specific to them.  Also, I haven't found any references to the moldmakers that do the tooling for these fantastic kits.  I spent quite a few years tooling up and manufacturing auto related parts involving stamping, injection molding and die-casting.  Even tires and tubes for bicycles and lawn and garden equipment.  Lived in Taiwan for twenty years doing this.  When I look at a "tree" my mind goes immediately to wondering how the molds were made and how they are now being made.  I've been a toolmaker by trade and made a few relatively simple molds.  I always felt like the product got all the glory and the tooling ignored.  Even the engineers whose products I had tooled didn't understand how tooling got made.

Now I'm beginning to build a model instead of just making parts.  I admire the scratch builders and the fine detail guys whose skills I only wish I had.  I can make a raw part, but use machines to do it.  CAD, 3d printing, plaster and silicone molds and CNC mill work I learned after retirement.  I will pursue photo etching  at some point, but after getting off the ground with my investment casting and spincasting learning projects.  I may never get a complete model built.

Welcome to the forum. Sounds like some of our experience and interests overlap. I've designed a fair bit of tooling for composite car and aircraft parts over the years, and a lot of jigs and fixtures for various machining and fabricating operations, and I have a pretty well-equipped (old school) machine shop.

I have some contacts in the injection-molding industry (not models, but it all works the same way) and have proposed doing an article for the magazine explaining and illustrating the entire process, but so far, no further response from management.

There's a lot of interest here in muscle-cars, but some of us old geezers still build hot-rods. Here are a few of mine:

 

 

Edited November 30, 2017 by Ace-Garageguy

[Flat32]

Bill, I looked at your builds, especially your techniques,with intense interest.  Can't overlook your in depth research,  attention to detail and real passion for the era.  Equally in awe of your ability to describe what you're doing in words and photos.  Did these builds get cut short in the archives??  They seem to end abruptly.

[Snake45]

8 hours ago, Flat32 said:

 Did these builds get cut short in the archives??  They seem to end abruptly.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! 

Those who have been around here a while know that Bill is inflicted with a horrible disease known as Neverfinishititis. I can laugh at this because I am the poster child for the disease. There are a LOT of us here who seem to start 10 or 20 or 50 models for every one actually finished. It is horrible.

I know guys who will buy one kit, work on it until it's finished, put it on the shelf and go buy another one. I envy them. (Well, in a way I do. They don't have my stash, though.) 

[High octane]

1 hour ago, Snake45 said:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! 

Those who have been around here a while know that Bill is inflicted with a horrible disease known as Neverfinishititis. I can laugh at this because I am the poster child for the disease. There are a LOT of us here who seem to start 10 or 20 or 50 models for every one actually finished. It is horrible.

I know guys who will buy one kit, work on it until it's finished, put it on the shelf and go buy another one. I envy them. (Well, in a way I do. They don't have my stash, though.) 

About a person's huge model kit stash, it only proves that they can spend money and nothing else.

[Ace-Garageguy]

47 minutes ago, High octane said:

About a person's huge model kit stash, it only proves that they can spend money and nothing else.

Or, it may show they have more imagination as to what to DO with a lot of build material, but not enough TIME to do it in.

And it may also show some foresight, collecting kits to build PRIOR to the income of a working-person dropping significantly after retirement.

Or, it may just show that they enjoy collecting.

In my own case, because I never build anything out of the box, I use my considerable stash as a source of parts to draw from when I want exactly the right thing that's period- or application-specific.

For instance, I just bought TWO Revell Shelby Series I kits (cheap) specifically for the ZF gearboxes (for a pair of Pantera builds) and the Northstar engines (one for a hot-rod, one for a Corvette).

I STILL WORK FOR A LIVING, and have little spare time...but in a year or so, I'll have no shortage of stuff to build models from. Which was the plan from the beginning.  

 

 

Edited December 1, 2017 by Ace-Garageguy

[Snake45]

25 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Or, it may show they have more imagination as to what to DO with a lot of build material, but not enough TIME to do it in.

And it may also show some foresight, collecting kits to build PRIOR to the income of a working-person dropping significantly after retirement.

Or, it may just show that they enjoy collecting.

In my own case, because I never build anything out of the box, I use my considerable stash as a source of parts to draw from when I want exactly the right thing that's period- or application-specific.

For instance, I just bought TWO Revell Shelby Series I kits (cheap) specifically for the ZF gearboxes (for a pair of Pantera builds) and the Northstar engines (one for a hot-rod, one for a Corvette).

I STILL WORK FOR A LIVING, and have little spare time...but in a year or so, I'll have no shortage of stuff to build models from. Which was the plan from the beginning.  

 

 

Guilty on all three counts, My Brother. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

2 hours ago, Snake45 said:

Those who have been around here a while know that Bill is inflicted with a horrible disease known as Neverfinishititis. I can laugh at this because I am the poster child for the disease. There are a LOT of us here who seem to start 10 or 20 or 50 models for every one actually finished. It is horrible.

I know guys who will buy one kit, work on it until it's finished, put it on the shelf and go buy another one. I envy them. (Well, in a way I do. They don't have my stash, though.) 

No arguments there.  

[Flat32]

I suppose the model world parallels the 1:1 world in the variety of characters and personalities as well as their build habits.  Some may think if you don't have a finished model you ain't got squat, but I tend to believe the pleasures and satisfaction that comes with achieving successes in the many individual steps is where real rewards are.  Best part is it can be an orgasm a day along the way. It's like the way some have described life, "Enjoy the journey, but avoid the end as long as possible."

I'd guess we all enjoy a challenge, I do, but I only allow myself to be the challenger.  I'd guess as well we all like to impress, but again,  I mostly try to impress myself.  

I have a plan. Might be a considered a little devious by some.

I wonder how many of you guys are using voice typing.  I've been using two fingers and hate it. searching for best software.

[Snake45]

1 hour ago, Flat32 said:

I wonder how many of you guys are using voice typing.  I've been using two fingers and hate it. searching for best software.

The best typing software is between your ears. It's called "learning to type." I guess you'd actually call it Wetware. 

[southpier]

On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 3:26 AM, Flat32 said:

I'm new to this forum and it's a great place with many dedicated and highly skilled modelers.  I find it a bit curious that there's not more representation of old traditional hot rods.  I was hoping to find a category specific to them.  ....

join the correct forum:  http://trakinscale.proboards.com/

and for reference: https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/traditional-rods-and-kustoms.56720/

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 hour ago, Flat32 said:

...I wonder how many of you guys are using voice typing.  I've been using two fingers and hate it. searching for best software.

Back in about 2012, I was experimenting with speech-recognition and "digital assistant" low-power AI software. Nothing was particularly impressive at the time.

The options for speech-to-text are surely better now, but I can't recommend one.

[Ace-Garageguy]

6 minutes ago, southpier said:

join the correct forum:  http://trakinscale.proboards.com/

and for reference: https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/traditional-rods-and-kustoms.56720/

Who let you back in? You've been banned under several screen names for chronic disruptive behavior.

[Flat32]

Put my nickel in the slot, no gumball yet at trakinscale.  I like it here so far.

1 hour ago, southpier said:

join the correct forum:  http://trakinscale.proboards.com/

and for reference: https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/traditional-rods-and-kustoms.56720/

I've been lurking at the H.A.M.B. site for a few years.  My engine is traditiona, but what I've done to it is less so.

[Ace-Garageguy]

8 hours ago, Flat32 said:

 ...I like it here so far...My engine is traditiona, but what I've done to it is less so.

 

More about your engine, please...

And here are a couple of other "traditional" builders on this board...Spex is a highly talented artist, and his work here shows it. Tim Boyd has been a fixture in the car-modeling community for many years, and is widely published. Bernard builds very evocative "period" pieces, but sadly, the images on a lot of his build threads disappeared due to the great PhotoBucket debacle.

 

[shoopdog]

On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 9:55 AM, Ace-Garageguy said:

I have some contacts in the injection-molding industry (not models, but it all works the same way) and have proposed doing an article for the magazine explaining and illustrating the entire process, but so far, no further response from management

This would be an article that myself and I'm sure many others would be very interested in.

[Flat32]

Found my speech to text software.  It's a free Chrome app and very very good. Hunt and pecked this reply though. It's called SpeechTexter.

Learned that model molds used to be "sunk" using 3D pantograph engraving machines. I had one in Taiwan and bought a used one here a couple years ago.  A large size model is created in any material and then a negative pattern gets cast in a plaster or resin hard material.  The large "pattern" gets refined if need be by hand or power tools.  A stylus is run over the entire pattern surface by the moldmaker by hand in a few steps as the cavity is first rough cut and finishes with a final step that can be so refined as to not even need polishing in some cases or minimal polishing.  I don't know yet what scale the patterns were however the machines are adjustable.  It is my understanding that the engraving was done by a one man/one machine approach.  Polishing usually went to a polishing bench where polishing experts who did nothing else did final surface finishing. 

 

 

[Flat32]

Found some Youtube vids that show how molds are made for models the new way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqyK6u5ZTmA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpH3mGRkTjw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fwd_CCPxNv0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLl8WjqDNFs

 

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

3 hours ago, Flat32 said:

Found some Youtube vids that show how molds are made for models the new way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqyK6u5ZTmA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpH3mGRkTjw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fwd_CCPxNv0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLl8WjqDNFs

Great videos. Very informative.

But I think it's important to make the distinction for the probable majority here who aren't as familiar with manufacturing processes as we are, that the first two videos deal with tooling for RESIN models, and the second two videos are about tooling for INJECTION MOLDED STYRENE models.

The materials the tools are made from, and the production processes, are entirely different for the two materials.

Though both processes now rely heavily on computer modeling and CAD during the design phase, that's where the similarity largely ends.

[Flat32]

7 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Great videos. Very informative.

But I think it's important to make the distinction for the probable majority here who aren't as familiar with manufacturing processes as we are, that the first two videos deal with tooling for RESIN models, and the second two videos are about tooling for INJECTION MOLDED STYRENE models.

The materials the tools are made from, and the production processes, are entirely different for the two materials.

Though both processes now rely heavily on computer modeling and CAD during the design phase, that's where the similarity largely ends.

Thanks for pointing that out.  I'm still looking for a video or documentary on how it was done before computers.  There is a lot shown that can be done at home.  Was watching the spincasting in the first videos and noticed the rubber tires being made in the second set used the same vulcanizing press.  I have a complete spincasting setup including the vulcanizer press and while I bought it to make Flathead Ford connecting rods I now see where I could make real rubber tires if I had a mind to.  

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

34 minutes ago, Flat32 said:

Thanks for pointing that out.  I'm still looking for a video or documentary on how it was done before computers.  There is a lot shown that can be done at home.  Was watching the spincasting in the first videos and noticed the rubber tires being made in the second set used the same vulcanizing press.  I have a complete spincasting setup including the vulcanizer press and while I bought it to make Flathead Ford connecting rods I now see where I could make real rubber tires if I had a mind to.  

Please tell us more about the connecting rods, please...

Far as "rubber" tires go, I've made more than a few product-development mockups, and presentation models over the years. Some of the flexible casting resins seem to be ideal for making model-car tires. And something people doing resin casting tend to overlook or forget...the finished part will duplicate the surface finish of the mold exactly, and the mold will duplicate the surface of the plug or master exactly...right down to a flat or glossy finish. 400 or even 1000 grit sanding scratches are reproduced faithfully.

I've tried and tried to explain to some of these guys that talcum powder and polyvinyl alcohol used as release agents will FUBAR the surface finish of their parts, and that there are multiple modern release agents that won't (most of my real-car and aircraft parts have had had to have a production-quality finish right out of the molds)...but a lot of them just don't want to learn, and persist using 50-year old processes.

You'll get a LOT of resin parts with grainy surfaces, and they're very obviously molded from surfaces prepared with powder or PVA release agents.

I bring this up mostly in relation to another thread asking "why model tires aren't made of rubber?" and the assertion that resin parts always look like resin parts...which is bull.

Some of the cold-cast overmolded handles I've done for full-scale product models looked and felt identical to the final products, where high temperature injection molding would be the process.

Sorry for the digression.

How big is your spincasting rig?

BEFORE COMPUTERS: Models were carved by master modelmakers in hardwood, in scales from 1/10 to 1/4, and reduced by pantograph to the production scale. Very VERY highly skilled operators required, obviously, because a man's hands operating the pantograph and the cutting tool did the work now assigned to a 5-axis CNC setup.

I built this 1/10 scale model some years back...

And enlarged it manually to full scale to build prototype parts...

Edited December 3, 2017 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

WHOA...Check this out...

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

Here's a pantograph scaling mill working in two dimensions...

 

Edited December 4, 2017 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

And a 3D copying mill...which will scale UP or DOWN as high as a 1:7 ratio.

 

Edited December 4, 2017 by Ace-Garageguy