Team Associates 73 Grand Am Nascar race Car

[swede70]

Oh, and another thing this...

On old Bud Moore  and Shelby Racing Co.Trans Am Mustangs they would fit a squat, rectangular section brake cooling scoop right at the base of the rear axle on either side. These were handmade, certainly light weight, and could hardly hurt the cause.  Such an assembly or assemblies could account for the 'structure shadow' seen in the PP images. Thanks...

Mike K./Swede70

Edited January 29, 2019 by swede70

[DoctorLarry]

Thanks for the shots-those really help. Adams was quoted in Motor Trend something to the effect of "everybody else just buys stuff from Holman Moody and they all do the same thing. We don't think you need to do that and we think we can use factory parts" so your photos show that. A very rough idea of what he said, obviously and since he was a suspension engineer I believe he could back it up. The Motor Trend article mentioned that they lost brakes in the race because the chrome wheels flexed more than they thought and ground the bleeder screw off a rear caliper-which was from a stock Corvette so they were using stock parts as much as possible. I just wonder if he used a rear say bar on the Grand Am. The one on the Tempest did not mount in the stock locations and would be invisible from the rear of the car.

[DoctorLarry]

Looking at the top photo I posted of the rear seat area, the two plates bolted to the floor pan may have been reinforcements for something in the rear suspension. They are in front of the rear axle so unlikely they are for a sway bar. On the A body platforms, sway bars mounted to the lower control arms in stock configuration. In the Grey Ghost Tempest, it mounts more like a 78-81 Camaro rear bar with the post mounts and the bar behind the differential. I think I will scratch build something and add the lines for the rear differential cooler. I'll use the rear suspension from either the Cutlass floor pan I'm using or from a 66 GTO. The Revell 66 GTO has very detailed suspension components. I'll need to find some rear disc calipers and rotors but I think I have a junk 67 Corvette I bought for parts somewhere. The rest of the front suspension is from the Cutlass. I will have to flip the sway bar over and fab up front frame rails and shock mounts but this is really easy to build because it is so stock! I used part of the roll cage from a NASCAR Buick Regal and scratch built the rest along with a resin firewall that I made for my Grand Ams. I ordered some resin Holley Dominators and have an intake that closely matches the one on the car. PPP wheels, Monogram 1/24 tires (larger size) and my own body and I'm almost there on parts. It also has a non-NASCAR seat so I ordered a resin Don Hardy race seat which matches pretty well. This could be the most expensive modeling project I've ever done...

[yellowsportwagon]

Rear sway bars were not used on stock cars back then. They wouldn’t allow the inboard tire to plant properly coming off corners

[DoctorLarry]

One less thing to build, then..

[DoctorLarry]

Looking at the top photo I posted of the rear seat area, the two plates bolted to the floor pan may have been reinforcements for something. Did the Gray Ghost have rear shocks on it? I can't see it on any pictures.

[swede70]

Greetings Larry,

Sorry - the shocks are there, albeit barely visible but for an orange/red diagonal flash seen here and there in the images provided.  Sometimes race shock installations are altered to the extent of having them set more or less vertically to be most effective in their operation at the price of introducing a certain harshness in ride quality, whereas on the Gray Ghost they seem to have remained in their stock configuration in relation to how they were sited for pick up points both high and low.  Maybe too on a mass-produced design where expensive additional locating links aren't in the budget, a slight side-to-side dampening action is desired even if such is imperfectly availed?  Back to the images of the Gray Ghost hitherto observed, where the eye expects to see a shock set at a solid 80-90 degree angle, instead one 'senses' a shock slashing through the image on the edges at 45 degrees.  O.K. - I've found something a bit better and have plugged in the same just below:

I see the reinforcement plates of which you speak in the photo you've added to the thread and have likewise mulled what such could be.  The four bar system typically obviates the need for bolt-on fixes employed on parallel leaf spring installations to counter axle movement across planes.  In short, no overrider or underrider traction bars, or Shelby GT350-style dampers integrated into any such assembly have ever been personally witnessed to counteract or dampen movement on a period racer.  This much said, observe that Harry Quakenboss relates on the other Twin Gray Ghost thread that the four bar system nevertheless carried with it certain challenges in the form of traction woes coming out of turns, while to run variations on the theme of stock parts when leaf spring setups and long Chevrolet pickup trailing arms were well understood or set to become the standard was to explore much independently.  Perhaps some other system was explored and not soon followed up upon by Herb Adams and crew given the later and then typically Firebird-based efforts ran leaf springs in the back by way of contrast?

Just above this post, Tim relates in a reasoned and matter-of-fact way that rear sway bars weren't 1973 NASCAR fashion or practice, although between Penske and Team Associates, if any entry was going to push the envelope and introduce new practices looking forward (for good or for ill), then maybe such was run?  I don't know enough here, and would be wary to suggest to anyone strictly what to do.  A short while ago I was viewing pictures of the roll cage fitted to the early '72 season Penske Matador. One would expect a curious mix of NASCAR and SCCA Trans Am practice, and indeed - what challenge it would be to do THAT in scale for having seen it!  I wonder too if Herb Adams might be contacted to afford quick and clarifying insight if a message was intelligently written and might be answered in a brief fashion consistent with responding to what was well laid out?  

Consistent with establishing contact, I tried to gather up some information consistent with chasing leads.  In the past I've spoken to his son Matt who can be found online for a bit of searching for the use of 'V.S.E. by Matt Adams' in conjunction with his latter day 'Cheverra' transkits, as well as his Cobra efforts which turn up for references across Cobra-specific message boards.  National Parts Depot handles some of the Cheverra materials, hence this might constitute another line of approach.  Some Contessa project information is also out there, but when this was written the data seemed older and less reliable.  Seek out the son, and perhaps he in turn might approach his father with questions you might pose...

And in closing (for this message anyways), don't let me beat you up too badly for suggesting this or that.  Telegraphing my insecurities and attaching my judgement to anyone else's creative efforts or endeavors can have a harsh and unhelpful edge that can be unintentionally nonconstructive for bringing a project to a halt.  My own projects too frequently stop dead for mulling this or that assembly - so what do I do?  I hunt down the work of others and redirect my insecurities!   Trusting you'll keep it fun and know when enough information to proceed forward is yours in hand...

Mike K./Swede70

Edited January 30, 2019 by swede70

[DoctorLarry]

If you look closely at the Gray Ghost rear end, as you correctly note, the upper control arm points are lowered (they normally attach to "ears" cast into the diff housing) and the upper control arms are now adjustable tube creations. If you look closely at the lower mounts you also see that they are lowered by pieces of angle welded to the old mounts. You can still see where the old lower arms mounted. Also, as you note, they boxed the lower arms for strength (which GM did on later models) but on the close up you showed earlier evidently the shocks were off the car. This photo shows them mounting in nearly the same place as stock-probably to the lower mounts. The insight is always appreciated!

[swede70]

Some of my photos were taken so close-in as to obscure other details that otherwise stood to be made out.  At the time they were taken, I wasn't so much concerned with the quantity that I might take, but rather that I'd waste the opportunity to capture specific information that could be gleaned for crawling around with abandon.  For review of those images I took and have uploaded thus far, the shocks are either visible or just marginally out of the frame.  One shot afforded further up the thread shows the end of one of the control arms and what appears to be a stud that would accept the bottom end of a shock, although in point of fact the shock is there, it's just mounted outboard and even a bit behind of what is visible.

I did visit the car twice, while the visits largely coincided with a Plymouth MI. concours event (Concours d'Elegance of America at St. Johns then) where the car would make up part of a Trans Am-themed display in the company of other vehicles of note.  If you have or might have seen the Dave Tom title The Cars of Trans Am Racing 1966 - 1972, most of the images reproduced within concerning the Gray Ghost were taken during this event.  Some light service was done in the form of an oil change as well as a light tune to ensure that the vehicle wouldn't afford trouble for being moved on and off a trailer, or negotiating the show field to be displayed, etc., although I suspect that was about all it got.  Thanks...

Oh, and just in passing, for quick review of Facebook, Matt Adams shows up in a fairly straight forward way.  Look for imagery that speaks of the old 'Trans Am Territory' gatherings of yore, as well as a bold Silverbird picture with the car seen in a front three-quarter profile.  He seems based in Detroit which makes sense to the extent that I believe I'd met him at an area book signing.  He took a few phone camera images of my larger model to share with friends and family, which of course was fun.  

Mike K./Swede70

Edited January 31, 2019 by swede70

[DoctorLarry]

I found a copy of Herb Adams' book "Chassis Engineering" on EBAY and ordered it. The reviews were mixed but it might have some insights on how he would set up a chassis. One reviewer complained it was too simplistic and another said it spent too much time on oval track cars so maybe for my purposes it will give me some insights. I did some web searches for Matt Adams  and VSE and it seems there is not much out there. He may have closed up shop or just not have much of a web presence.

[swede70]

That's a good idea on the book front.  I just checked mine, but being a later edition from 1993, all the photos are contemporary to that time.  Sometimes I've identified a title and chased earlier copies, even quite grubby ones placed on eBay and such for little, just in pursuit of earlier photos and diagrams if they might be unearthed.  The Carroll Smith and Paul Van Valkenburgh chassis titles are updated along the same lines; i.e. basic principles and text remain about the same, while finer details and photos are revised and may preclude ready reference if one is hoping to find content that may only have featured in an earlier edition.  Near worthless at a glance, sometimes obsolete product catalogs can have their utility, with race efforts of the past tossing up images in publications two or three years later in the most unexpected fashion.   Most people throw them out, but isolated examples crawl out of area landfills and turn up at swap meets and such.

Just as an aside, the softcover Steve Smith publications in relation to preparing a race engine, brakes, chassis, etc. are all sound purchases and worth having for the period stock car or road racing modeler.  One I have is titled Race Car Braking Systems by Steve Smith and Paul Lamar from 1975.  It doesn't look like much at first glance, but the contents relate to coming up with the most effective combination of parts utilizing off the shelf components that includes measurements of most of same.  As time passed the parts and assemblies employed across series became more and more specialized and decidedly nonstock, hence it was neat to review a copy of something filled with period know how concerning the best use of the seemingly mundane.  Sometimes sellers will bundle a few of his titles together, and this can be a good way to go.  

I found the Matt Adams/VSE angle a tough one for searching even as I felt the information was generally good.  Only as I was about to sign off did I bother to skim my Facebook presence, while for visiting an Historic SCCA Trans Am page did I happen to notice the presence of Matt Adams there.   Maybe a contact of last resort then. Thanks for the update...

Mike K./Swede70

Edited February 1, 2019 by swede70

[DoctorLarry]

I sent him a Facebook message. He posts sometimes on a FireAm page for enthusiasts so we shall see.

[DoctorLarry]

Went through the Petersen archives and pulled out a bunch of close ups. Revised the chassis around the stock frame (Revell 66 GTO). The frame is slightly different that the 73-77 cars so I had to shorten it 3 mm.  Built the cage just like the pictures using one of my own resin firewalls and dashboards. Dash is pretty simple. Gauge bezels are thin slices of plastic tubing so I can Molotow chrome the rings and decal the faces. This is really a simpler build because it is pretty stock. I can see oil tank, cooler and remote filters but cannot see a dry sump pump or pan lines so that is still up in the air as well as rear suspension details.My Chassis Engineering book is supposed to be here shortly so maybe some ideas from that.

[swede70]

Very nice progress made across assemblies - thanks for sharing...

Mike K./Swede70

[DoctorLarry]

After much new information from Mike and Harry Quackenboss about the Adams project cars, I resumed trying to replicate the original as closely as possible. I added the kick panel portions of the firewall and scratch built the oil tank, oil cooler, remote oil filter unit and radiator puke tank. I put in the braided lines and fittings. Front suspension is in and I added the front shocks and braces to the frame. I built heim ends for the front sway bar but it was too close to the engine so I have to re-do the bar, which mounts on top (rather than bottom) of the frame. Mounted the differential oil cooler and pump. I found a resin low back racing seat like the original. The real car had a snap on fabric cover for the seat and I found some similar looking craft ribbon to make that out of. Bracket for the seat mount and harness mount is in as well as a small switch bracket on the floor. I found a fire extinguisher and made the straps that hold it in.  Harry said that it used a truck arm rear suspension because NASCAR required it. He actually called Herb Adams to verify! (big thanks for that one!) Now it needs fuel and brake lines, calipers and rotors and detailing the engine. The car is hard to replicate because everything was painted black! I am scratch building an intake (already made the valley pan) and I found a resin Holley Dominator. Modified the block for the dry sump lines (Thanks again Mike and Harry) and so I am getting close. radiator is ready to go in as well (I had to modify the core support to get it right). I feel like Dave Van here-I don't want to think how much this has cost but it sure is fun to replicate such a beautiful car. At least if I screw the body up I can always make more of those...

[swede70]

Looking good and nice progress all along the line.  Thanks for sharing...

P.S. I don't know if it would help, but it seems Herb Adams was a big Corbeau seat customer across the '70's and may have tapped them for a seat here.  I've never chanced across a period catalog for them, but then again I've never really pursued the topic with vigor.  

Mike K./Swede70

Edited February 21, 2019 by swede70

[DoctorLarry]

The Petersen archives photos show a racing seat like this with a fabric cover-may have been Corbeau but clearly not the usual NASCAR.

Edited February 21, 2019 by DoctorLarry
spelling

[DoctorLarry]

Not much time lately on this but a few things done. I scratch built an intake from a Chevy NASCAR engine base and mounted the resin Holley Dominator I found. Stripped the chrome from the valve covers and drilled the engine for plug wires as well as a distributor. Plumbed the braided fuel line for the carb. Added roll bar padding and started to mock up the engine. Added the braided lines to the remote oil filters and drilled the valve covers for the vent lines back to the oil tank.

[MarkJ]

Looks great. I hope you allowed room for the hood to shut with the air cleaner on that high rise manifold. If not you could just make the air cleaner removable and only have it on the engine when you take underhood shots.

[DoctorLarry]

It uses a metal plate and foam element to seal against the hood-it does not use the normal cowl intake setup. The 73 Grand Am had two NACA ducts in the hood that could be opened up for a factory ram air setup (although the EPA nixed it because of noise levels). The car used the hood ducts for fresh air rather than the usual cowl setup, which raised a few eyebrows among the NASCAR tech inspectors.

[MarkJ]

Cool, that should work fine then.

[DoctorLarry]

Got some time in Friday night. I wondered about the rear suspension on the car since the front was ridiculously stock. Harry Quackenboss called Herb Adams and verified what he thought, that it was a truck arm required by NASCAR. However, in looking at photos of the car, it appears that the trailing arms were very short, almost like old Lakewood leaf spring traction bars. Given that there were no clear pictures, I improvised somewhat. From the photos, you can see something like a rear trailing arm but they are short. I shortened a TBird rear setup and mounted the cross member where the old rear control arms mounted. Correct? Probably not.

 

[DoctorLarry]

I also worked on the engine wiring. It needs a fan and some touch up, but almost done.

[swede70]

Looking nice; i.e. very good progress all-round.  Thanks for sharing...

Mike K./Swede70

[DoctorLarry]

Got back after 10 days in southeast Asia wit a group of MBA students. Did some more research on short trailing arm cars by looking at some of Tim's old builds and the Petersen archive photos. I mocked up the rear end then shortened some TBird arms and made some new mounts. Plumbed the rear diff brake and cooler lines and glued it up. I made some brackets for the track bar which I have to shorten and find some suitable shocks and then this part is done. Them I need to run brake and fuel lines to the front, plumb the master cylinder and front brakes and install the coil and battery. Then the chassis will be done!