Three Stooges going back to D.C.

[RichCostello]

Hey RadRides,thanks for the reply,and believe it or not,I agree with you on most of what you said.I don't feel sorry for the car makers one bit.They are ones who put themselves in this mess,with the help of the UAW.GM pays huge amounts of money in pension plans and wages to people who do absolutly nothing for it.Last year GM paid pension benitits to 37,000 people,while on the other hand,for example,Mitsubishi paid 0.The avarage labor cost to build a Pontiac is right around $70,while the cost to build a Toyota is a little over $30,thanks to the UAW.It's no wonder they can sell their cars cheaper and still show a profit. As for used cars,we must remember that the car that was traded in for $6500 Most likely needed the bald tires replaced,the cracked windshield replaced,the paint touched-up,dings and dents fixed,and all of our cars get a lube job,oil change,oil filter and a 120 point inspection,and any number of things that may need to be replaced or repaired.By the time the sales manager and finance manager get their cut and the salesman gets his commission there isn't that much left for profit,when that car sells for $10,000.But you are 100% right on one thing,don't feel sorry for the US auto makers,feel sorry for the millions of people who could lose their jobs(myself included).If the big 3 go down,I'm afraid they'll take the country down with them.

[Pete J.]

Well the stooges were back and I read an on line story that made a comment that made me sick. The CEO's of GM and Ford earned $22 and $18 million last year. Just exactly what the G*d D**n H**l did they do to deserve that kind of money while driving there companies to ruin!!!! Why should the little guy on the line pay the price for their exorbitant salaries. It is like they hit the lottery! I hate most CEO's and their cohorts who raid the company like that and stick it too the stock holders and the modest workers on who's back they are standing. They will work for $1 next year????? Are you kidding me?? They should work for the rest of their lives for free with that kind of income. I know last year wasn't the first year they were paid that much. I would bet that $1000 per car goes to executive bonuses. Sickening. Throw them in jail and let someone with a passion for cars run the company not someone with a passion for money!

Sorry - it kind of turned in to a rant, but I couldn't help my self.

[RadRidesByDan]

Hey RadRides,But you are 100% right on one thing,don't feel sorry for the US auto makers,feel sorry for the millions of people who could lose their jobs(myself included).If the big 3 go down,I'm afraid they'll take the country down with them.

Tag....you're it

I hope to God that you and millions of others dont lose thier jobs....but Law of Gravity States....what goes up, will come down. And when I see corporations charge out more than double than what it takes to build a product so that the company executives can role in the money......makes me sick. Greed is a demise that has brough the most powerfull to thier knees....and its happening now with them.....they once thought they were untouchable and thier Greed is bringin them down.

Unfortunate part is that they dont care who they take down with them.....they made thier millions and they can live the good life for a long time. What do they care....The display of arrogance was shown when they flew to thier meetings in ther private jets at what?.... 100 times the cost of a first class airline ticket. Then to make themselves look good 2 of them chose to return on commercial airlines. Like Bill Engval would say.....HERE'S YER SIGN!!!!

Edited December 5, 2008 by RadRidesByDan

[bird_man]

But you are 100% right on one thing,don't feel sorry for the US auto makers,feel sorry for the millions of people who could lose their jobs(myself included).If the big 3 go down,I'm afraid they'll take the country down with them.

I fall into this also! Funny thing is,I work for TOYOTA! This isn't only hurting the big 3! Their future decides my future! Tonight we find out how next year is going to go!I already know that beginning in Jan.when we come back from shutdown,we will be building less in two shifts then we are now on each shift! One rumor is 6 hours a day,4 days a week!

Dan

[Peter Lombardo]

Gentlemen, there are so many reasons for why we are here, at this place in time, I can’t even begin to lay them all out, but I will try and list them to make it easier to follow.

1. In the late 1940’s, the Allies destroyed the German and Japanese manufacturing capacity with around the clock bombing. After the war, the US pours billions into their economies to sure them up. They turn to our leading manufacturing companies for assistance in rebuilding their production ability.

2. In the US, President Eisenhower embarks on a very ambitious plan to build the Interstate Highway network, thereby creating the American auto industries “Golden Eraâ€.

3. Gas is very cheap, under .30 cents a gallon and we develop a real apatite for big cars.

4. Americans, being who we are, desire new models and looks and colors every year.

5. The car companies are all too happy to provide us with new, poorly engineered product every year complete with shiny new paint schemes and more and more chrome. Durability is not important because we, Americans, want a new car every 2 or 3 years.

6. In the 1970’s, the energy crisis hits home hard and fast, and the fickle American buyer no longer wants the big gas guzzler anymore, he now wants one of the , formerly “cheap piece of junk from Japan†because of the high mileage and highly touted quality.

7. While the Americans are driving big cars, with our huge highway network and cheap plentiful gas, the Germans and Japanese are developing small fuel efficient autos for a consumer who has small roads, only local travel needs and very expensive gas cost. Also, because their economy is not as prolific as ours, they must hold on to their cars longer so quality and reliability are necessary.

8. Our manufacturers are caught flatfooted and take years to respond with the appropriate new product. The imports gain a strong foothold in America.

9. Being as affluent a country as we are, our standard of living is higher, therefore our workers earn more.

10. The unions forge strong contracts with the auto builders and the death grip is beginning to tighten around their necks.

11. We establish a Department of Energy to find a way to loosen the hold foreign oil has on us, but the lobbies in the Hydrocarbon industries are strong and well funded. The corrupt politicians do nothing to correct the situation.

12. The price of oil is relatively stable so nothing gets done all through the 1980’s and 1990’s.

13. American companies find that they can not compete with the lower priced imports, from a cost point, so they concentrate on bigger SUV’s, pickups and minivans where there is enough profit for them. Detroit, because of Wall Street demands for profit, quarter after quarter, must do whatever it takes to turn a profit…they build only profitable vehicles. The family sedan market is conceded to the imports.

14. In the 2000’s, the cost of energy begins to rise sharply do to higher demand from Asia and South America and a stagnant supply increase. The labor costs of American cars is steadily increasing as the imports hold steady due to their governments subsidies and our governments greed in giving unbelievable deals to them to build factories here in America. That is right, our government took an active roll in cementing the demise of the big 3’s ability to compete.

15. The gross hypocrisy of our completely corrupt feckless Congressmen and Senators grilling our American auto builders is beyond belief.

16. Sure, our guy’s are not without blame, but our government is just as guilty of a failure of leadership as they are. After all, the leaders of the big 3 today, are not the guys that created this mess…they inherited this mess from their predecessors and are now being blamed for the problem.

17. I give them credit for one thing though. I could not have sat there in front of those thieving bastards from Washington and taken their ###### without lashing back…I mean, who the hell are they to criticize anyone? How does that condescending arrogant elitist, Chris Dodd, Democrat from Connecticut, have the nerve to sit there and criticize when he was the recipient of a Sweetheart deal from the now defunct Countrywide Mortgage??

18. The problem with Detroit, for the most part, is completely traceable back to Washington. We have a complete and total lack of leadership, all the way from Washington, to Detroit and on to Wall Street. As long as WE the people, elect feckless spineless leaders who are only in it for personal gain, we will have corrupt ineffective government. Gentlemen we have meet the enemy, and we are it!!!! Demand better…it is as simple as that…we have the power, we can change our direction, but only we the people can do it. We need to rise up and demand term limits…look, if left to the greedy politicians; they will stay in office until the day they die. We need to control our governments reckless selfish direction. We the people

[Pete J.]

17. I give them credit for one thing though. I could not have sat there in front of those thieving bastards from Washington and taken their ###### without lashing back…I mean, who the hell are they to criticize anyone? How does that condescending arrogant elitist, Chris Dodd, Democrat from Connecticut, have the nerve to sit there and criticize when he was the recipient of a Sweetheart deal from the now defunct Countrywide Mortgage??

18. The problem with Detroit, for the most part, is completely traceable back to Washington. We have a complete and total lack of leadership, all the way from Washington, to Detroit and on to Wall Street. As long as WE the people, elect feckless spineless leaders who are only in it for personal gain, we will have corrupt ineffective government. Gentlemen we have meet the enemy, and we are it!!!! Demand better…it is as simple as that…we have the power, we can change our direction, but only we the people can do it. We need to rise up and demand term limits…look, if left to the greedy politicians; they will stay in office until the day they die. We need to control our governments reckless selfish direction. We the people

RE #17 Looks like a rat fight to me. There is no outside hired help worth what these turkeys are getting paid. No one!! The only CEO who is worth multi millions are the ones that founded their companies. They had the vision, drive and skill to create millions, they are entitled to it. Hired guns are not.

#18 It is easy to blame Washington, but the car makers dug their own grave and the American people paved the way to the grave yard. I call to your attention the SUV. Big gas guzzling chrome plated buckets. But having said that, companies steer their own course just like individuals do. Blaming an outside source is like blaming the cop for pulling you over for speeding. You made the choice, you pay the price. The jerks that run the companies kept feeding SUV's because they provided the best profit. Money driven. We all know that oil is finite. It is running out. Maybe not now or 10 years from now, but in the near future, and what is left is getting harder to get to and thus more expensive. Not directing the company to produce more efficient, durable, and customer friendly cars lies directly on the manufactures. The sign posts have gone up about every 10 years starting in the 70's. I remember the gas lines in 74. I remember the price of gas going up in fits and starts. I remember American car quality falling in the trash heap. I remember looking at unattractive vehicles(Aztec). I remember hearing of exorbitant salaries and bonuses from failing companies. I remember Chrysler going to congress in the 70's. I remember the sweetheart deals for the UAW to not bring the automakers to a halt when the car makers were being strangled by poor production quality.

In brief, don't blame the cops for the laws. Each company has a free will to direct itself in a direction. These companies choose their course. Blaming congress for not legislating them down the right path is a poor attempt to pass blame. Sorry, but that is the way it is. So far as I am concerned let the mangy dogs tear each other apart. Might be a bit harsh, but management deserves the scalding that the stockholders and employees can't give them. The down side is that the only ones that are really going to get hurt are the workers, dealers and the American public. Congress will go on and the CEO's will sit in their fat palaces and laugh at the fools who willingly gave them their money.

[Art Anderson]

Gentlemen, there are so many reasons for why we are here, at this place in time, I can’t even begin to lay them all out, but I will try and list them to make it easier to follow.

1. In the late 1940’s, the Allies destroyed the German and Japanese manufacturing capacity with around the clock bombing. After the war, the US pours billions into their economies to sure them up. They turn to our leading manufacturing companies for assistance in rebuilding their production ability..

2. In the US, President Eisenhower embarks on a very ambitious plan to build the Interstate Highway network, thereby creating the American auto industries “Golden Eraâ€.

3. Gas is very cheap, under .30 cents a gallon and we develop a real apatite for big cars.

4. Americans, being who we are, desire new models and looks and colors every year.

5. The car companies are all too happy to provide us with new, poorly engineered product every year complete with shiny new paint schemes and more and more chrome. Durability is not important because we, Americans, want a new car every 2 or 3 years.

6. In the 1970’s, the energy crisis hits home hard and fast, and the fickle American buyer no longer wants the big gas guzzler anymore, he now wants one of the , formerly “cheap piece of junk from Japan†because of the high mileage and highly touted quality.

7. While the Americans are driving big cars, with our huge highway network and cheap plentiful gas, the Germans and Japanese are developing small fuel efficient autos for a consumer who has small roads, only local travel needs and very expensive gas cost. Also, because their economy is not as prolific as ours, they must hold on to their cars longer so quality and reliability are necessary.

8. Our manufacturers are caught flatfooted and take years to respond with the appropriate new product. The imports gain a strong foothold in America.

9. Being as affluent a country as we are, our standard of living is higher, therefore our workers earn more.

10. The unions forge strong contracts with the auto builders and the death grip is beginning to tighten around their necks.

11. We establish a Department of Energy to find a way to loosen the hold foreign oil has on us, but the lobbies in the Hydrocarbon industries are strong and well funded. The corrupt politicians do nothing to correct the situation.

12. The price of oil is relatively stable so nothing gets done all through the 1980’s and 1990’s.

13. American companies find that they can not compete with the lower priced imports, from a cost point, so they concentrate on bigger SUV’s, pickups and minivans where there is enough profit for them. Detroit, because of Wall Street demands for profit, quarter after quarter, must do whatever it takes to turn a profit…they build only profitable vehicles. The family sedan market is conceded to the imports.

14. In the 2000’s, the cost of energy begins to rise sharply do to higher demand from Asia and South America and a stagnant supply increase. The labor costs of American cars is steadily increasing as the imports hold steady due to their governments subsidies and our governments greed in giving unbelievable deals to them to build factories here in America. That is right, our government took an active roll in cementing the demise of the big 3’s ability to compete.

15. The gross hypocrisy of our completely corrupt feckless Congressmen and Senators grilling our American auto builders is beyond belief.

16. Sure, our guy’s are not without blame, but our government is just as guilty of a failure of leadership as they are. After all, the leaders of the big 3 today, are not the guys that created this mess…they inherited this mess from their predecessors and are now being blamed for the problem.

17. I give them credit for one thing though. I could not have sat there in front of those thieving bastards from Washington and taken their ###### without lashing back…I mean, who the hell are they to criticize anyone? How does that condescending arrogant elitist, Chris Dodd, Democrat from Connecticut, have the nerve to sit there and criticize when he was the recipient of a Sweetheart deal from the now defunct Countrywide Mortgage??

18. The problem with Detroit, for the most part, is completely traceable back to Washington. We have a complete and total lack of leadership, all the way from Washington, to Detroit and on to Wall Street. As long as WE the people, elect feckless spineless leaders who are only in it for personal gain, we will have corrupt ineffective government. Gentlemen we have meet the enemy, and we are it!!!! Demand better…it is as simple as that…we have the power, we can change our direction, but only we the people can do it. We need to rise up and demand term limits…look, if left to the greedy politicians; they will stay in office until the day they die. We need to control our governments reckless selfish direction. We the people

1) OK, I'm going to weigh in here: Yes, it is true that as of 1 Sept 1945, Germany, Italy and Japan had ceased to exist, as either independent nations, or as industrial powers (Italy really wasn't what you could call an industrial country, but rather a rural, farming country, with one large industrial city--Turin. For that matter, France had been all but devastated not so much by battle, but by German expropriation of most of her factories, and their equipment.

But, even before 3 Sept 1939, neither Germany nor Italy had much of an auto industry, and what there was, was orientated toward those people with the serious money with which to buy and fuel a car. Japan? No auto industry worth a ######, period.

As for our "rebuilding their production ability", in all three countries, that was a national, "bootstrap" effort--very little help from US companies was involved, beyond GM through their subsidiary Opel, and Ford, with their small factory in Koln (Cologne). It was the British who in effect rescued Volkswagen from the dustbin of history, having them produce Beetles for British military use, as a start on reparations. The "Aid" from the United States began as food shipments in the fall and winter of 1945-46, critical given the destruction of much of that year's crops by the Allied advance across Germany, along with winter clothing, and aid in the form of coal for heating, that sort of thing. The legendary Marshall Plan was the first form of "Foreign Aid" undertaken by the United States, and extended not only to Germany and Italy, but also to the UK and to France--to help them get back on their feet quickly--but that was in the form of equipment for rebuilding destroyed cities and rural homes, stuff such as trucks, bulldozers, electric power equipment, in short, mostly hard goods, and very little money. The real purpose of the Marshall Plan in Europe? To blunt the influence of communism, and to prevent the further advance of the influence, even control, by the Soviet Union beyond the agreed upon line of demarcation at the close of hostilities, "From Stettin on the Baltic, to Trieste on the Adriatic" (in the words of Winston Churchill in his famous Iron Curtain speech at a small college in northern Missouri in 1945), the Iron Curtain. Look up the Marshall Plan (named for former US Army Chief of Staff, General Of The Army (5-star) George Catlett Marshall, who became President Truman's Secretary of State in 1947, and also the "Truman Doctrine".

2) Yes, Dwight Eisenhower did put forward the "System of Interstate and Defense Highways" which began spreading 4-lane divided concrete across the country, dotted with those cool Red, White and Blue shield signs, linking all the state capitals and other major cities, but that was superimposed over the top of what was already the most developed public road system ever seen in history. The all time production record, which stood for 24 years, of automobile production was 1929, when more than 6,000,000,000 cars were produced. It was 1955 before that was topped, and then it took until the early 60's before even 1955's record was exceeded. Car production wasn't driven by the Interstate Highway System, but rather, first by the reaching of real affluence by the WW-II "Greatest Generation" (Tom Brokaw's words, not mine), and then in the 1960's, by their children--the onslaught into adulthood by the Baby Boom Generation.

3) Gasoline cheap at 30-cents a gallon in the late 1950's? Not so fast please! The average annual earnings of an American household was about $5000 a year in the late 1950's, which translates down to about $100 a week or so. Gasoline was actually as expensive, relatively speaking, as it was this past summer, when considered in 1950's dollars!

As for the American appetite for big cars, well that was well underway by the early 1930's. Unlike virtually every other country on the planet, as paved highways made intercity, even transcontinental driving a reality, people took to the road, the "Great American Motor Vacation" becoming the annual dream of just about every American family by the late 1930's. Couple this with the simple fact that President Herbert Hoover's (incidently, I am a distant cousin of Herbert Clark Hoover) campaign pledge of 1928, "A chicken in every pot, and two cars in every garage", didn't really take hold (the car part anyway) until perhaps the 1970's, the one car in most households had to do it all, take Dad to work, be the grocery getter, and then load up the entire family, with luggage, for long trips. Big also bespoke affluence--small was looked upon as being low on the totem pole, the food chain. This was just as true with houses as it was with the family car. By contrast, the countries of Europe, for the most part, had to make do with 100% imported oil, certainly Germany, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, the UK--none of those relatively affluent countries had any known oil reserves within their borders--the Persian Gulf oil fields had only just been discovered, and we, the US, were 100% self sufficient in oil--remember your history classes? The oil industry started in the US, in Pennsylvania, not long after the Civil War (now don't you wish you'd stayed away in that class?).

4) Yeah, we Americans do like "New" anything--it makes us feel good about ourselves, makes a statement that we individually have achieved something, always has, likely always will. Why would cars be any different in that regard?

5) American cars poorly engineered? Whoa baby! For decades, those huge American cars were marveled at world wide, for their durability, their speed, their comfort. We yanks didn't have anything like Lord Lucas, "The Prince Of Darkness", nowhere in the rest of the world, until the VW Beetle came along (itself legendary for dependability, reliability, and endurance) did there exist a car at a popular price, that could match the cars made here. It may come as a surprise, but while the British Royal Family had to be seen in cars the likes of Daimlers and Rolls Royces, privately, from King George V through Edward VIII, even George VI, English royalty preferred BUICKS!!!! So much so, that when Rolls Royce began to think about OHV engines, they settled on Buick's excellent engines to emulate. When Rolls decided that the Silver Cloud needed an automatic transmission, what did RR select? Would you believe the GM Hydramatic??? Yup, they did! Check it out. And the famed Jaguar XK-120? What did Jaguar do for transmission and rear end gears? Uh, would you believe 1948 Ford units???? Yup.

Much has been made of Detroit's penchant for "Bedspring Ride" and "Diarrhea Drive", but did you actually believe those were foisted on the American people? Nope! Americans besieged Detroit looking for cars that rode smoothly on the often rough and uneven pavement of years ago, and they wanted to be free of constant gear shifting--so soft ride, and automatic transmissions were snapped up right and left, as cars with them became available. Our ancestors wanted their comfort, and they wanted effortless driving. In fact, Independent Suspension was developed (almost concurrently with Mercedes) by Cadillac, who were the first to put IFS on the market, a full year before Mercedes Benz, purely for comfort, not for superior "handling". Lousy handling? Well, not if you consider that American drivers seldom ever encountered anything like the cowpath roads that wound through countries such as France and the UK, until those countries began to develop "Autobahn/Interstate" style superhighways, most of our driving was on fairly wide, surprisingly level highways, certainly compared with most of the rest of the world, even better than all but the relatively short stretches of Autobahn in Germany prior to the late 1950's.

Durability? Hmmmm, try telling those Cuban drivers of no-newer-than-1958 American cars--they seem to keep on going, and going, and going--sheesh, they should all have been painted pink, fitted with a bass drum, and given long pink fuzzy bunny ears! In the fall of 1945, after almost 4 yrs of wartime curtailment of car production, preceded by reduced production due to the Great Depression and its aftermath of some 11 years, the average age of the American automobile was something like 13 years, more than it is today. And even in 1970, there was a surprising quantity of 1950 American cars still on the road--AND something like 2,000,000 Model A Fords were still registered and driveable (JD Powers). Just look at the sheer number of 60's cars that are still running and looking good, particularly in regions where rust is not an issue. (BTW, most imported cars of the 50's, 60's and 70's were just as prone to rustout as any car made by the Big Three and AMC!). Give the "durability argument" a rest please.

6) Yes, the "energy crisis" of 1973, spawned by the Arab_Israeli Yom Kippur War of that October, did send American car buyers into a frenzy. However, our penchant for big cars with big V8's went back far enough to be ingrained in our consciousness. Every US auto company, starting with the likes of Willys-Overland and Austin/Bantam in the 30's, to Crosley, Kaiser, Willys, Nash and Studebaker in the immediate postwar years, to Chrysler (Valiant), Ford (Falcon) and GM (Corvair) in 1960, offered economy cars to a less than enthusiastic public. It wasn't long before the American passion for "get up and go" replaced the fashionable high gas mileage. About the only people who really took up fuel efficiency were college professors in their tweed sport coats with leather elbow patches, and Henry Mitchell (Dennis' dad) types, with their horn-rimmed glasses, and pipe between their lips (Henry Mitchell drove mid-line, full sized Fords throughout the run of "Dennis The Menace" though). And at that, Dad's 1954 Hudson Hornet 308cid Twin-H with Hydramatic easily racked up 23mpg on a 5000 mile vacation trip from Indiana to Arizona and back in 1958, with my parents, and three kids, all the luggage and accoutrements for 3 weeks away from home, and that on mostly 2-lane blacktop, but at highway speeds (both Mom and Dad had lead feet!!!!). But, by 1972, EPA regs forcing those gawdawful smog pumps dragged gas mileage for a V8 American car down into the very low teens, and single digit mileage around town--gotta love the politicians on Capitol Hill--NOT!). So, it's little wonder that Detroit had no cars that merely sipped fuel by the the cubic centimeter from eyedroppers!

7) The Germans, French, Italians, British, and Japanese HAD to have fuel efficient, small cars, not just because of their roads, but consider this: Gasoline sold for more than $2 a gallon US, in those countries, IN the 50's, when it was around 30-cents a gallon here, simply because A--those countries all had to import EVERY drop of crude oil they got, and B--because it was taxed till hell wouldn't have it. Also, particularly in the UK, cars were taxed, BASED ON THE DIAMETER OF THEIR ENGINE'S CYLINDER BORE! (Anything to sock it to the "rich--they were the only ones who could afford cars), and the French and Italians weren't far behind.

8) Absolutely true--for reasons denoted above.

9) In the 5th grade (1954-55), my teacher, Mr. Loren Spear, first spoke to me and my classmates about how our wage rates, and standard of living, was so much higher than anywhere else in the world, that most people overseas could not afford to by products made in the USA.

10) One need only to look at the UK, to see what out-of-control unions, and governments politically aligned with them, can do to industry--other than Morgans, are there any cars produced in the UK anymore? As for France, that country has one of the highest unemployment rates of any in the G-7, and Germany isn't very far behind France.

11) The US Department of Energy is just about as useless as tits on a boar-hog, frankly. Other than regulating rather successfully, the manufacture and existence of radioactive material, they just don't do much, because they can't! One would think that DOE, in the manner of USDA (who does promote agriculture pretty well, BTW) would promote the production of energy supplies, but the so-called "environmentalists" and the NIMBY's (NIMBY--Not In My Back Yard) crowd has pretty much emasculated and castrated USDOE. (Think Al Gore and Nancy Pelosi here, please!)

12) The price of crude oil has been anything but stable over the years, just like any other commodity, just think for a minute about say, wheat, corn, soybeans, pork bellies and such. It's actually a very volatile market, except where the Arab Oil Cartel has been able to prevail. Incidently, until James Earl Carter finally realized that it no longer made any sense whatsoever (oil wells in this country were simply being capped, and no new ones drilled!) in the late 1970's for US crude oil to be limited to a measely $3.50bbl at the wellhead, oil exploration not only died during his administration, thousands of wells were simply capped off (no different that farmers withholding grain from the market until the price went up, BTW!)

13) Absolutely correct! Labor and other costs within the Big Three and AMC were such by the early 1980's that they simply could not produce compact, fuel efficient cars profitably--AMC nearly went under, aligned themselves with the French Government (who has owned Renault SINCE late 1945, lock stock and barrel) and still faltered, until bought up by Lee Iacocca's Chrysler Corporation), so they concentrated on a market they knew was profitable, and products they knew would sell, those being full-sized and luxury cars, and then in the 90's the SUV craze. The full-size van craze of the late 70's pretty much fizzled away with the Iranian Oil Embargo of 1979, never to recover, and other than Chrysler, no one else in Detroit ever had much lasting success with minivans.

14) Absolutely correct! I can remember, vividly, the carping of the then Democrat minority in Indiana in 1986, because our then-governor, John Mutz had yet to land a Japanese transplant operation--Ohio (Honda), Kentucky (Toyota), Illinois (Mitsubishi), even MICHIGAN (Mazda) all had them, why not Indiana? (Subaru-Isuzu Indiana--SIA--came to Lafayette in 1987, and Subaru is a HUGE player in our local economy still!). And the deals continue! Honda just opened a new plant in Southern IN, Toyota started up a new assembly line in SW Indiana several years ago. However, it's hard to fault state and local governments in all that--after all, in 1938, similar deals were made to get Alcoa to locate what is still one of the very largest aluminum extrusion mills in the world here in Lafayette, just in time for WW-II and beyond.

15) It's almost as if our Senators and Congressmen WANT to see the end of any US-based auto manufacturer, frankly. However, just how to rescue Detroit without its becoming little more than a Government takeover of the US domestic auto industry? Geezus!!! Have those loonies forgotten the mess that the Soviet Union made of industry in that failed country????

16) Even more tragic is, that government interference in the prudent and businesslike operation of banking and finance, led us into a massive implosion of the credit markets (laws forcing lenders to make mortgages available to almost anyone, regardless of their income, their ability to repay, all that, out of "POLITICAL CORRECTNESS", a situation while completely unconnected to the auto industry, has had a devastating effect on ALL automakers, not just the US Big Three. And yet, like the legendary lemmings, who periodically march to the edge of the cliffs overlooking the North Sea, so they can fall over into the waters and drown, we keep on electing the same bunch of incompetent, idiotic, self-serving nincompoops (this is a family-friendly board, or I WOULD USE MY MOST GRAPHIC TERMS TO DESCRIBE OUR LEGISLATORS, ALL OF THEM!!!!!).

17) What I wouldn't give, for the chance to sit there behind a microphone, as a "friend of the ____" and then cut loose with a stream of invective-laced rhetoric, that surely would land me in jail for "Contempt of Congress" (who are they to hold ME in contempt, after all, I have little BUT contempt for the whole lot of them, period!)!

18) Thomas Jefferson, God rest his soul, made a statement once, that politicians and certainly bureacrats wish no one would EVER hear,---to whit: "We need to have a little revolution every so often" (or words to that effect). Would God that this mess had exploded, say last July! Would there have been heads that rolled? You better believe it--now, REMEMBER all this, file it away, in BOLD, ALL CAPS, and vote accordingly in 2010, 2012, and so on!!!

Phew! Most venting I nave ever done!!!!

Art

[Robert]

RadRides,where I come from the car salesman have nothing to do with the price of a car.It is completely up to the sales manager and the dealership that you are dealing with.If a car dealer will only sell a car for $4000 over book,don't worry about them,they won't be around long.I regularly sell vehicles for $2000 or more under book,and yes I am an honest car salesman(as most of us are).And if people are buying cars that are way over their budget,it's because of their own stupidity,not dishonest salesmen.Every day I deal with MORONS who think we should allow them $3000 over book on their hammered,filthy old trade-in,and sell them a totally reconditioned,spotless,warenteed car for $3000 under book,and I'm the evil car salesman when I tell them I cant do it.And as far as buying one of those wonderful German engineered cars(that they're practically giving away)go ahead,and good luck getting it fixed when something goes wrong with it(and you'll be doing plenty of that).It always amazes me how when a car customer will beat-up a car salesman for 3 or 4 hours to save $200 on a $20,000 car and turn around and pay full price for a TV,jewelry,or piece of furniture that has been marked up by as much as 300 to 800%.So lighten up on car salesmen(they're just trying to make a living),and when you run across one who is too pushy,or tries to rip you off,just don't deal with them,it's that easy,just move on to the next dealer 'till you find one who is willing to work with you,and help you get the best deal on the right car or truck for you(and there are a lot of us out here).And remember,if you get screwed on a car deal,it's probabaly more you're fault than the salesman's.

I agree with you. I sold cars at a dealership in Gainesville. FL to work my way through college and I have to say, I was always honest with customers and had no problem selling cars, provded the customer was being honest with me as well.

[Art Anderson]

RE #17 Looks like a rat fight to me. There is no outside hired help worth what these turkeys are getting paid. No one!! The only CEO who is worth multi millions are the ones that founded their companies. They had the vision, drive and skill to create millions, they are entitled to it. Hired guns are not.

#18 It is easy to blame Washington, but the car makers dug their own grave and the American people paved the way to the grave yard. I call to your attention the SUV. Big gas guzzling chrome plated buckets. But having said that, companies steer their own course just like individuals do. Blaming an outside source is like blaming the cop for pulling you over for speeding. You made the choice, you pay the price. The jerks that run the companies kept feeding SUV's because they provided the best profit. Money driven. We all know that oil is finite. It is running out. Maybe not now or 10 years from now, but in the near future, and what is left is getting harder to get to and thus more expensive. Not directing the company to produce more efficient, durable, and customer friendly cars lies directly on the manufactures. The sign posts have gone up about every 10 years starting in the 70's. I remember the gas lines in 74. I remember the price of gas going up in fits and starts. I remember American car quality falling in the trash heap. I remember looking at unattractive vehicles(Aztec). I remember hearing of exorbitant salaries and bonuses from failing companies. I remember Chrysler going to congress in the 70's. I remember the sweetheart deals for the UAW to not bring the automakers to a halt when the car makers were being strangled by poor production quality.

In brief, don't blame the cops for the laws. Each company has a free will to direct itself in a direction. These companies choose their course. Blaming congress for not legislating them down the right path is a poor attempt to pass blame. Sorry, but that is the way it is. So far as I am concerned let the mangy dogs tear each other apart. Might be a bit harsh, but management deserves the scalding that the stockholders and employees can't give them. The down side is that the only ones that are really going to get hurt are the workers, dealers and the American public. Congress will go on and the CEO's will sit in their fat palaces and laugh at the fools who willingly gave them their money.

Pete,

The graveyard of American automakers is filled with "crusading" companies who tried to buck the trend of public opinion, and public demand, by virtually insisting that people should buy what today would be termed "politically correct" (read that, compact, fuel efficient) vehicles, regardless of whether or not we all wanted them at the time: Do the names Austin, Bantam, Crosley, Nash Rambler, Hudson Jet, Willys Aero, Willys Model 77, Willys Americar, Chevy II 4cyl, ring any bells with you?

Incidently, I watched the press conference of the UAW President! Did he bash the leadership of GM, Chrysler, Ford in this situation? No, he did not, in fact, he supported them wholeheartedly.

The US Big Three, given the labor contracts in force (I know, they signed them!) and other considerations forced upon them by US laws and regulations, concentrated on the vehicles that were profitable to them--and in case you have forgotten, the job of any company is to provide a return on investment to their owners, the stockholders! However, this current situation was NOT brought about by the US Automakers, but rather by the same elitist idealists that are now in the driver's seat in the US Capitol, those who wrote, and those who support, the laws that made the US auto industry what it had to become.

Obviously, from my read of the US auto market, does everyone in the US WANT a "Crampact" car--no they do not, never have, and never will. To force that upon the entire US auto buying public would require a legislative/enforcement effort that would rival the Bolshevik takeover of the Russian Empire pale by comparison.

No, it was the meltdown of the US, and hence, the World's, banking system that has made the situation that exists right now. And that, my friend, is a responsibility that lies squarely in the hands of the likes of Christopher Dodd et.al., aided and abetted by our "Speaker" of the House, Nancy Pelosi and her Kaliforiya collaborators.

It seems to me that the majority of the US Congress is hell-bent to election bent on destroying once and for all, the ENTIRE US auto industry, just as they would destroy the US oil industry, so that there be no ugly factories pumping out ugly "un-politically correct cars". Just how large a step is it gonna be to the day when we all drive the modern equivalent of the Trabant or the Moskovich, bland, nearly useless cars, available only to the chosen few able to, or politically allowed, to buy them?

Art

[Harry P.]

WOW, Art!!! You really let loose there with your point-for-point response to Peter's post!

All I can say is I'm happy that one of my little posts was the springboard for one of your best posts ever.

Not that I necessarily agree with you 100% (as you undoubtedly already know)... but reading a post as well written and insightful as yours is always a pleasure.

BTW... Peter, you're no slouch either. I love reading posts that are thoughtful and well-stated, regardless of whether I agree or not.

Who says us grownups can't talk politics here and be civil about it?

[Jairus]

Market rules.

If the market wants SUV's then the producer makes SUV's.

If the market wants economy cars then the producer makes economy cars.

If the market cannot pay the fees for a car the stupid government officials want everyone to drive, then the government subsidizes it!

How hard is that?

[James Flowers]

I can not believe that this thread is still going on. Lets all send Art to Washington as our spokes person.

[Pete J.]

Pete,

The graveyard of American automakers is filled with "crusading" companies who tried to buck the trend of public opinion, and public demand, by virtually insisting that people should buy what today would be termed "politically correct" (read that, compact, fuel efficient) vehicles, regardless of whether or not we all wanted them at the time: Do the names Austin, Bantam, Crosley, Nash Rambler, Hudson Jet, Willys Aero, Willys Model 77, Willys Americar, Chevy II 4cyl, ring any bells with you?

Incidental, I watched the press conference of the UAW President! Did he bash the leadership of GM, Chrysler, Ford in this situation? No, he did not, in fact, he supported them wholeheartedly.

The US Big Three, given the labor contracts in force (I know, they signed them!) and other considerations forced upon them by US laws and regulations, concentrated on the vehicles that were profitable to them--and in case you have forgotten, the job of any company is to provide a return on investment to their owners, the stockholders! However, this current situation was NOT brought about by the US Automakers, but rather by the same elitist idealists that are now in the driver's seat in the US Capitol, those who wrote, and those who support, the laws that made the US auto industry what it had to become.

Obviously, from my read of the US auto market, does everyone in the US WANT a "Crampact" car--no they do not, never have, and never will. To force that upon the entire US auto buying public would require a legislative/enforcement effort that would rival the Bolshevik takeover of the Russian Empire pale by comparison.

No, it was the meltdown of the US, and hence, the World's, banking system that has made the situation that exists right now. And that, my friend, is a responsibility that lies squarely in the hands of the likes of Christopher Dodd et.al., aided and abetted by our "Speaker" of the House, Nancy Pelosi and her Kaliforiya collaborators.

It seems to me that the majority of the US Congress is hell-bent to election bent on destroying once and for all, the ENTIRE US auto industry, just as they would destroy the US oil industry, so that there be no ugly factories pumping out ugly "un-politically correct cars". Just how large a step is it gonna be to the day when we all drive the modern equivalent of the Trabant or the Moskovich, bland, nearly useless cars, available only to the chosen few able to, or politically allowed, to buy them?

Art

Art to some degree I can agree with you but, I would call your attention to a remark by what I consider one of the great economists of the current era, Alan Greenspan. When he testified in front of congress he stated that his basic model for managing the economy was that "Corporate executives would manage to the best interest of the company and the stockholders." He acknowledged that this was not the case and lead to under supervision from the banking authorities. In essence, these people are too greedy to be left to their own devices. Although his comments are directed at the banking industry, I challenge you to show that the same does not apply to the CEO's of any major corporation. They are playing power games for their own self aggrandizement. Frankly they just don't care about the company(except how much can I grab before it goes under), the workers(except to bleed them to death if law will allow) and the stock holders(I got mine, let them get what they can.). It is a sad situation.

Yes, the American public is generally exceptionally short sighted. They are far to influenced by marketing and their own self interest and short sighted as a bat. I again refer the the SUV in general but as much to all large V-8 powered vehicles. I drive the roads of southern California and am stunned by all the huge vehicles that run the roads with a single occupant. An incredible waste of resourced. Now I am no tree hugger by any means, but I have never owned a large American vehicle. The largest I ever owned was a '69 mustang with a 200/6. I was 19 and it was a prudent choice by my father. I didn't kill myself if it. I have owned a succession of sports cars and smaller foreign sedans since. I prefer nimble handling and reasonable acceleration , not gobs of power and wallowing weight. I drove my share of farm trucks. Hate the feeling of a vehicle heeling over in a corner. Heeling is for boats not cars.

While on the subject of small sedans, why have the big three never been able to find this formula. The Ford F150 is the most popular vehicle sold in America. That aside, the next two are the Honda Accord and the Toyota Camry. To say that the American public does not want smaller fuel efficient cars is to ignore the fact that they have been buying them in mass quantities for years. Analyze these two and you will find the failings for the Big Three. They have for some reason always equated small with cheap and the cars they built to compete come across that way. Honda and Toyota have spent a lot of money engineering these cars, making them nimble with a solid feel of safety. There has never been an American car that would compete well in this market. Not because Americans lack the engineering skills, but because corporate management was unwilling to invest in such a car with a lower profit margin but higher volume. Do you remember the Fremont California plant? Toyota and GM both produced cars there. Toyota the Corolla FX and GM the Prism. Lots of interchangeable parts. The GM cars were "tailored" to the GM buyer. They were a sales bust. The Corollas sold well. Same plant same parts. What gives?? Can't be legislation or the union. Heck, California is the worst state in the union when it comes to worker protection laws. I don't think GM has a feel for the American small car public. Never has. It is a large demographic. You can't blame the Japanese. The playing field is level with the plants in the US. American auto makers don't have the will to compete.

As to your comment about the UAW backing the Big three. Well no kidding! It comes down to this. Bankruptcy means that they can void the contract and potentially break the union. UAW leadership has a conflict of interest. They need to keep the cash cow alive, so they can bleed it just enough so it continues to live. Sorry guys, I know how some of you feel about the union, but generally it is a love/hate relationship. Keep in mind the basic tenant of a union. For a fee they will act in your best interest so long as they can continue to receive their fee. Much of the Union higher ups are lawyers, and they act like it. They are not in the position to see what is best for both the company and the members, only the members. Bleed the company but keep it alive. Not a good situation, but one that has existed for a long time. Kind of a Arab/Israeli conflict of the corporate world.

Don't get me started on Congress - I come from Duke Cunningham's old district. I am a veteran and I have never been so disappointed, insulted, offended and just down right hostile in my entire life. Enough said!

[dustym]

Good job Art. I really liked your responce.

My 2cents worth. I have owned big and small, foreign and domestics. You can get lemons in any of them and can get great ones also. I own 3 fords, 2 chevys, 1 AMC jeep, 1 Willys jeep, 1 Toyota p/u and 1 Nissian. Our last three cars have been 2 fords (1 08 mustang 1 month old) and a Hyundai. They all have a purpose and are used as such. Our 2 newer Fords are very fine autos, that in my opionin are 2 nd to none. I will by an american auto again. Toyotas and Hondas are also overpriced on what you get.

As far as those in congress complaining about those CEO's who arrived in private jets, they need to look into the mirror when they were condeming them. Talk about milking the americans. As far as the CEO's salleries, look at what there companies were making when they were given those bonuses. Maybe in some peoples eyes, they were making too much, but look at what congress makes for what they do, and how much time they spend at thier jobs. It seems like some people here, dont like what CEO's make, and should give it to the poor, look at communism/socailism, that really works doesnt it. Greed corrupts all.

Edited December 6, 2008 by dustym

[oversteer]

That picture didn't give you the warm fuzzies?

Is it true that some memebers of the UAW union make like $76 an hr working on the assembly line???I think its good when people can make money and be wealthy but how will American car companies compete with import?Don't get me wrong I realize this alone didnt cause GM' s demise.If I'm wrong please forgive me I dont want to get on anyones bad side.I dont even have cable service at my house because I hate the media,especially where I live.I ususally get this info from the Wall st Journal,Barrons or the Times.

[RadRidesByDan]

As far as those in congress complaining about those CEO's who arrived in private jets, they need to look into the mirror when they were condeming them. Talk about milking the americans. As far as the CEO's salleries, look at what there companies were making when they were given those bonuses. Maybe in some peoples eyes, they were making too much, but look at what congress makes for what they do, and how much time they spend at thier jobs. It seems like some people here, dont like what CEO's make, and should give it to the poor, look at communism/socailism, that really works doesnt it. Greed corrupts all.

No matter how you slice it......How can anyone justify making 18 million + as a CEO, give themselves bonuses larger than what most working class peoples salaries are in a full year before taxes, executive spending accounts that add up to millions each year, that most are used for personal expenses, free cars to use(and Im not talking about the working class poeples affordable cars, and not just one car) free gas, free repairs, the personal jets to get around either for business or personal(and I would dare for them to tell me different)........I CAN'T JUSTIFY THIS.....

....If they were to cut back the hundreds of millions of dollars wasted on over inflated salaries and bonuses and get rid of a lot of sub departments and those departments sub departments, they would be able to build cars at an acceptable cost and be able to pass on the savings to the consumers....BUT THAT MAKES TOO MUCH SENSE.

If you get all these bonuses, a CEO should not be getting more that a mid 6 figue salary or a low 7 figure salary with no fringe benefits. If you make 7 figure salary you bloody well can afford your own stuff.

Unions? Hmmmmm....I pay my unuion dues where i work and let me say that when push comes to shove, Money Talks and BS walks.....they will work in thier own best interests. Just like the CEO's they care about nothing but thier own hide. Unions will screw the workers blind if it means saving themselves, and will kiss the CEO's full moon so that it works in thier favor, either way, the backbones(the workers)of the companies get the short end of the stick.

But who am I to say that I know best.....I dont know best......all I have is a Teaching degree....Im no BIG SHOT CEO....but Im not the one on my knees begging for money from the government to keep my 18 million + salary with all the benefits while jeapordising the future of millions of workers.

These CEO's can go to staight to Hell and lose the shirts of thier backs for all I care....I just hope the government finds a solution SO THAT THE WORKERS DONT LOSE

[Harry P.]

I dont even have cable service at my house because I hate the media,especially where I live.I ususally get this info from the Wall st Journal,Barrons or the Times.

News flash: the Wall St. Journal, Barrons and the Times are part of the media! And print media is no more "reliable" or "honest" than electronic media. The Times, for example, is one of the most obviously liberal-leaning papers in the country! Great news source if you're a liberal... not quite so good if you lean right.

No matter where you get your information, print, TV, web, whatever... you have to read between the lines and not take everything at face value. After all, reporters are just people, and people have opinions and biases, even when they're not supposed to let it show or influence their "reporting".

Best bet is to gather news from many sources... that way you get a broader picture of an issue, and you are in a much better position to take an intelligent position. If you only rely on one or two sources for the news, you're only hearing the side of the story that that particular source believes to be true. And it may not necessarily be the truth at all...

[raisin27]

Is it true that some memebers of the UAW union make like $76 an hr working on the assembly line???I think its good when people can make money and be wealthy but how will American car companies compete with import?Don't get me wrong I realize this alone didnt cause GM' s demise.If I'm wrong please forgive me I dont want to get on anyones bad side.I dont even have cable service at my house because I hate the media,especially where I live.I ususally get this info from the Wall st Journal,Barrons or the Times.

Dont believe everything you read in the papers or on the internet.

At Ford a newly hired assembly worker starts at about $14 an hour, after achieving full pay he is up to about $28 an hour. If he passes a test and goes through a 4 year apprentiship for skilled trades he can make up to $33 an hour. GM and Chyrsler wages are very close to the same.

Good middle class wages, but not the 150 grand a year that most think.

[oversteer]

News flash: the Wall St. Journal, Barrons and the Times are part of the media! And print media is no more "reliable" or "honest" than electronic media. The Times, for example, is one of the most obviously liberal-leaning papers in the country! Great news source if you're a liberal... not quite so good if you lean right.

No matter where you get your information, print, TV, web, whatever... you have to read between the lines and not take everything at face value. After all, reporters are just people, and people have opinions and biases, even when they're not supposed to let it show or influence their "reporting".

Best bet is to gather news from many sources... that way you get a broader picture of an issue, and you are in a much better position to take an intelligent position. If you only rely on one or two sources for the news, you're only hearing the side of the story that that particular source believes to be true. And it may not necessarily be the truth at all...

I realize the papers are the media.I guess what I was trying to convey is I know people that whatch the news on TV every day,they say they are keeping up with "current event".I dont need cable because not much on TV interest me plus I wont keep getting beat in the head with all the crapola that's prevalent.So the distiction is that I can pick up a paper everyso often as appossed to mindlessly absorbing the crapola from TV.I'm not a liberal.Anyway politics aside this is a great website to learn to build plastic cars,I cant wait untill I complete my first one.

Rich

[oversteer]

No matter how you slice it......How can anyone justify making 18 million + as a CEO, give themselves bonuses larger than what most working class peoples salaries are in a full year before taxes, executive spending accounts that add up to millions each year, that most are used for personal expenses, free cars to use(and Im not talking about the working class poeples affordable cars, and not just one car) free gas, free repairs, the personal jets to get around either for business or personal(and I would dare for them to tell me different)........I CAN'T JUSTIFY THIS.....

....If they were to cut back the hundreds of millions of dollars wasted on over inflated salaries and bonuses and get rid of a lot of sub departments and those departments sub departments, they would be able to build cars at an acceptable cost and be able to pass on the savings to the consumers....BUT THAT MAKES TOO MUCH SENSE.

If you get all these bonuses, a CEO should not be getting more that a mid 6 figue salary or a low 7 figure salary with no fringe benefits. If you make 7 figure salary you bloody well can afford your own stuff.

Unions? Hmmmmm....I pay my unuion dues where i work and let me say that when push comes to shove, Money Talks and BS walks.....they will work in thier own best interests. Just like the CEO's they care about nothing but thier own hide. Unions will screw the workers blind if it means saving themselves, and will kiss the CEO's full moon so that it works in thier favor, either way, the backbones(the workers)of the companies get the short end of the stick.

But who am I to say that I know best.....I dont know best......all I have is a Teaching degree....Im no BIG SHOT CEO....but Im not the one on my knees begging for money from the government to keep my 18 million + salary with all the benefits while jeapordising the future of millions of workers.

These CEO's can go to staight to Hell and lose the shirts of thier backs for all I care....I just hope the government finds a solution SO THAT THE WORKERS DONT LOSE

Could it be that the inflated salaries will be the next bubble to burst?

[oversteer]

Here is a little story that came up several years ago. I think it is very appropriate at the moment. It is a bit long, I am sure most of you will enjoy it.

A Japanese company (Toyota ) and an American company (General Motors) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River. Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.

On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.

The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior

management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.

Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person

steering, while the American team had 8 people steering and 1 person

rowing.

Feeling a deeper study was in order, American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion.

They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.

Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 3 area steering superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.

They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 1 person rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program' with meetings, dinners and free pens for the rower. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses.

The next year the Japanese won by two miles.

Humiliated, the American management laid off the rower for poor

performance, halted development of a new canoe, sold the paddles, and

canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses and the next year's racing team was out-sourced to India .

Sadly, The End.

Here's something else to think about: Ford has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US, claiming they can't make money paying American wages.

TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants

inside the US The last quarter's results:

TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses.

Ford folks are still scratching their heads.

IF THIS WASN'T SO SAD IT MIGHT BE FUNNY

WOW that was a good one!It was funny becaue its true but it is sad because its true.I hope if the big 3 come out of this mess intact and with a good plan do re-organize,recapitalize and make good cars.

[wdcav]

I'll be quite frank in saying this: there are a lot of ignorant and ill-informed views in here about how our auto industry "supposedly" works.

I applaude those that are speaking reason here. Sure, some can't stand the idea that GM (feel free to swap GM for Ford or Chrysler) isn't the devil the media makes it out to be. But they refuse to listen to facts.

Facts like GM and Ford are currently building the best quality cars they've ever built, in most cases tying or beating nearly any maker, including Toyota and BMW. This past year, GM and Ford took the 3 out of the 5 top spots in JD Powers quality surveys. Facts like GM was well on it's way to a turnaround until the economy melted down. Evidence? Read a ###### auto enthusiast magazine, specifically Todd Lassa from Motortrend, who vehemently acknowledges the General was turning a corner until credit became a distant memory.

Facts like the government drove the American consumer to SUV's with their stupid and inept CAFE (Corp. Average Fuel Economy) laws, which they just managed to sneak another version of past the American consumer recently without many realizing the implications of.

Facts like Toyota, BMW, Mercedes, Honda, Nissan, and Hyundia are all extremely selective about where they build their factories and what the local economy will sacrifice for a piece of the pie. They build in areas where they can avoid Union interference. They build in areas where the economy hasn't matured, so that the jobs they bring can be (rightly so I believe) viewed as "good work". Yet they do not deal with Unions. Ah, there's the rub, because overseas, BMW and Mercedes are dealing with powerful unions in their home countries that are preventing and even sapping away profits just as the UAW does here. Or that Toyota employees more temporary workers in Japan who don't receive corresponding wages and benefits then they do "normal" employees.

Facts like the market demanded SUVs and any and all auto makers responded with. Evidence: Toyota last year introduced an all new model fuel guzzeler of their own called the new Tundra, and only this year released the new Sequoia, both are as thirsty as any D3 truck or SUV. Proving even Toyota didn't foresee gas prices inflating as rapidly as they did or foresee a stagnant economy that would cripple ALL makers. Evidence: Toyota was down over 33% for the month of November 2008, more then Ford, GM was down 41% and even Nissan suffered a horrible 42% loss of sales from a year ago. Toyota Tundra led the depressed sales pack for full size trucks with an astonishing 52% sales loss from last year.

Facts like GM tried to market an electric car, but when demand wasn't there and gas prices and technology couldn't entice buyers-let alone make economic sense-at the time, they killed it - only to be hated for it years later by the same public that was uninterested before. Facts such as GM was already responding to gas prices inflating this previous year, evidence being the GMT900 hybrids that came to market earlier this year, the first of any maker to bring to market a hybrid to the most inefficient catagory out there.

Facts like that while gas prices were raping the American consumer, Oil company CEO's were getting record level bonuses and salaries that exceded 400 MILLION on one person, all the while the media and the government sacrificed Detroit at the alter of blame.

Or facts like Toyota/Honda/and Nissan are at this very moment asking the Japanese goverment to devalue the Yen to help protect their profits from exports and transplant sales. Or that mighty BMW stated less than two weeks ago that due to the current sales environment, they can weather this economy for roughly two years before closing their doors. Or that all the mainstream European makers are currently asking the European Union for handouts to help them remain solvent through this economy. Or when VW's CEO last month publicly stated that when the time came in the US for dispersion of the promised 25 Billion to automakers, his company would hold up it's hand for a share of the US Treasury's money.

And what of the notion that GM, Ford, and Chrysler have brought this on themselves because of past mistakes, so lets punish them and the current management now? To that assertion, why don't we punish VW and Mitsubishi for producing arms by previous management officials that were used against the US in WW2? Or what of the time that Chrysler was under the flag of Germany, owned by Diamler (or as it was sold - a merger of equals)? Did the Germans flip that sinking ship around into a profitable entity and then set it free out of good will? Hell no, they came, they failed, they bailed. They didn't properly understand the undertaking, they misjudged the situtation, and they bungled the solutions. So do we punish the current Chrysler team for mistakes made by Diamler? Sure, mistakes have been made, even recently. But who among us is perfect, who among the competition hasn't made their own mistakes? Why the hate?

We as Americans, whether it be consumers, media, or government entities, have made it en vogue to self deprecate our industry, to hate everything our own companies stand for. It's shameful to be honest.

[RichCostello]

THANK YOU,wdcav.You just printed all the facts that the foreign car snobs hate to see.It's about time someone stood up for American cars.

[Harry P.]

ok, Mark... I can't let that one go without a rebuttal...

The fact is, there are several contributing factors at work in the current Big Three mess. It's not just unions, it's not just CEO salaries, it's not just this or just that.... it's a combination of things.

But union contracts are a huge part of the problem. GM's "legacy costs" per vehicle are roughly ten times those of Toyota! That's a built-in "head start" Toyota has on every vehicle it produces vs. GM. Compared to most other "blue collar" workers in America, when you factor in wages, benefits, pensions, medical coverage, etc., unionized employees of the Big Three have traditionally made out like bandits, thanks to the incredible leverage the UAW had in the past.

A perfect example of the union's part in the current mess: The infamous "job bank". In case any of you never heard of the job bank, here's the story: When American automakers began to try and streamline their factories and automate many previously "manned" operations in the 80s, in order to better compete with the Japanese automakers, the union, in return for the loss of some union jobs due to modernizing and streamlining operations, came up with a demand for the creation of a "job bank". What that meant in plain English is that laid-off auto workers couldn't really be laid off. They simply had to report to the "job bank" office every day and collect most of their salary for doing absolutely nothing! That's right... the automakers tried to save money by automating and streamlining operations, but because of the union demands, they wound up paying all those unnecessary workers to not work!!!

In other words, the new, modernized plants required fewer workers to build cars than before, but instead of removing those now unnecessary workers from the payroll and saving money, the automakers had to pay all those people to not work! Is that insane or what???

From DetroitNews.com:

"Ken Pool is making good money. On weekdays, he shows up at 7 a.m. at Ford Motor Co.'s Michigan Truck Plant in Wayne, signs in, and then starts working -- on a crossword puzzle. Pool hates the monotony, but the pay is good: more than $31 an hour, plus benefits.

"We just go in and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," he says. "Otherwise, I've just sat."

Pool is one of more than 12,000 American autoworkers who, instead of installing windshields or bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours in a jobs bank set up by Detroit automakers and Delphi Corp. as part of an extraordinary job security agreement with the United Auto Workers union.

The jobs bank programs were the price the industry paid in the 1980s to win UAW support for controversial efforts to boost productivity through increased automation and more flexible manufacturing".

The UAW is not the only reason the Big Three are in a mess... but obviously they are a contributing factor. Keep in mind, I'm not bashing the union workers... heck, if I was a unionized auto worker I'd gladly take the pay and benefits too! My point is, the union is going to have to rethink it's traditional "us vs. them" mentality and realize that major concessions are going to have to be made in order for the Big Three to survive. They can't continue to insist it's all management's fault... because it's not.

[wdcav]

But union contracts are a huge part of the problem. GM's "legacy costs" per vehicle are roughly ten times those of Toyota! That's a built-in "head start" Toyota has on every vehicle it produces vs. GM. Compared to most other "blue collar" workers in America, when you factor in wages, benefits, pensions, medical coverage, etc., unionized employees of the Big Three have traditionally made out like bandits, thanks to the incredible leverage the UAW had in the past.

Compare how many retired GM/Ford/Chrysler workers there are in the United States to how many retired workers BMW/Toyota/Honda/Nissan/Mercedes have in the United States. Even by the 1960's and 1970's when the transplants started gaining a foothold into the US market, the D3 already had thousands of retirees. Example: my grandfather is retired GM Salary, he retired clear back in 1979. Market share was better then, life expectancy wasn't what it is now, 401K's and self saving weren't the norm and you expected a check each month. It was this way with nearly all American industry. US companies have yet to benefit from a new generation of retirees that have saved money for retirement through 401K investments. Toyota with the few, if any, retirees they have stateside, will incur little to none of those legacy costs because they've operated under a system other then pension checks.

There are still many US retirees right now that are from the WW2 generation, still drawing money. It can't be helped, it has to be waited out, as mean and harsh as that sounds. Someday soon my grandfather and his peers will fade away, yet it'll likely take another 20-30 years for monthly pensions to disappear completely and GM/Ford/Chrysler can benefit from the same kind of retirement system as the relatively new transplants.

If the D3 survive long enough, someday they will be playing on a much more level playing field. Now if only the US could get ahold of it's exploding health care costs to help American companies compete against countries like Japan and European nations that all have national health care systems in place. GM could knock another 1,500 off it's cars.