After readin a "bash" of ERTL (AMT) kits on another board I had to come to "my" company's defense.

[LUKE'57]

After readin a "bash" of ERTL (AMT) kits on another board I had to come to "my" company's defense.

They were really comparing hamburger with T-bone and it got me to thinking about how many of today's modelers really don't know the whole story behind those "laughably simple" kits that turn up in rerelease from time to time. So, here goes. Not a rant but a little history lesson for the newcomers.

----------------------------------------------

Here's a little insight from someone who's been in it almost since the beginning, having built my first kit around 1958, about why those AMT kits, some of which are from tools that are over 40 years old, are the way they are and why your comparison is very unfair.

The newer kits are tooled for an entirely different purpose than the older kits were. In fact, the older kits didn't start out as kits at all.

When the new cars came out, the auto manufacturers would contract with companies like AMT to produce what were reffered to as "promos", short for promotional models, that were used in showcases in the dealership to let the prospective buyer see what the cars looked like in the different colors offered without having to stock all of them in the full sized cars at all times.

Sometimes the dealer would give out these cars to his better customers, especially those with young boys, as a sales premium or appreciation or even to help "seal the deal". The dealers needed models that were ready to hand out and not kits so the manufacturers, after getting all the info on the new models, would make a simplified replica with as few parts as possible to produce an accurate miniature of the full size car for the car maker's dealer showrooms.

That's why the interior consisted only of a one piece "tub" with all the seats molded in, a dash and a steering wheel to complete the interior and a one piece chassis so that the "kits" could be built by AMT and others in a very short time so as to get the new little cars in the showrooms when the real one hit.

The full size car makers pretty much paid for the tooling and the buildups and the model companies made a modest profit. Along about '58 it got really interesting as far as us modelers were concerned.

AMT started doing the promos, and with the orders from the car makers there were hardtops, convertibles, station wagons, four doors and pickup trucks, and after the orders for the dealers were fullfilled they added some tooling for a few custom parts, printed some decals, put it all, unassembled, in a box and our auto modeling hobby was born from these humble beginnings.

At first there were no engines because a promo's hood didn't open but later the kit makers added engines with stands and later opened the hoods in the retooling process after the promos were finished. That's why there were so many different body styles kitted back then and why they weren't as detailed as the kits made thirty or forty years later.

Before you go condemning a kit for its lack of detail stop and think how long ago and for what purpose the tooling was cut. Would you rather have a simplified kit of a vintage vehicle or no kit at all of that subject because there isn't enough of a customer base now to support a new modern tool?

And another thing about those simple little kits that today's "sophisticated" modeler convienitely overlooks is that those kits GOT BUILT and didn't linger in a closet or workbench for months or even years! And not only by the "master modelers" that gripe about the vintage kits today, but also by the kid brothers of those "kit assemblers" because they wanted to be like big brother and that grew a whole 'nother generation of buyers that made the next batch of kits possible and profitable.

And the most important thing about those simple kits was that when you got it built, it looked like the vehicle you were modeling because the shape of the body and the overall "look" was built into it to please the people that built the real car. Beginners built them out of the box on their way to becoming modelers and modelers used them as the basis for building their "visions", from customs to racers to whatever their imagination could concieve. And that. my friends, is what modeling is supposed to be about.

[Harry P.]

AMT started doing the promos, and with the orders from the car makers there were hardtops, convertibles, station wagons, four doors and pickup trucks, and after the orders for the dealers were fullfilled they added some tooling for a few custom parts, printed some decals, put it all, unassembled, in a box and our auto modeling hobby was born from these humble beginnings.

Actually building scale model plastic car kits as a hobby was already underway before 1958. There were unassembled plastic model kits offered years before, like the "Highway Pioneers" series. The AMT 1958 kits, being that they were kits of then-current cars, probably caught the interest of a lot more people, though, and you could say they gave the hobby a "kick start"...

A lot more info here:

http://www.oldmodelkits.com/blog/

[Harry P.]

A little more on the beginnings of AMT and the evolution of their early kits:

This article was taken from the July/August 1997 issue of The Blueprinter, a magazine published by The Ertl Company, Dyersville, IA

Hobby History

Aluminum Model Toys From Aluminum to Plastic

From Eight Mile Road in Detroit, Michigan to Highways 136 and 20 in Dyersville, Iowa, AMT's rich history spans nearly half a century. A written record of its initial years is nonexistent, leaving the historian to rely on recollections of those who were there during the company's first two decades, the '50's and '60's. Memories and scrapbook archives of former AMT employees like Paul Simon, pattern maker from 1955-1964, bring the company's story alive like no official written history ever could. The result is an intriguing legacy of eccentricity, humor and hard work spun together to create one of the nation's top model kit manufacturers.

Decades after the arrival of plastic assembly kits, the AMT name itself raises a curious eyebrow for today's modeler. An acronym for Aluminum Model Toys, it refers to the material used in creating the company's first product: pre-assembled promotional models, or "promos." In 1948, West Gallogly, Sr. began working on a mold for a 1946 Ford, fashioning it from an existing Danish friction toy. The Ford Motor Company was hustling to meet an increased public demand for new autos in this booming period, and a light bulb was glowing over Gallogly's intuitive head. The plan was to create a scaled-down mold, cast the new 1948 Ford in aluminum (the difference between the '46 and '48 bodies was slight), paint it in the manufacturer's various available body colors, and place it in Ford showrooms nationwide. Working from a rented, one-room shop near Detroit, the foundation was set for Aluminum Model Toys. Aluminum was the material of choice because of its ready availability and attractive cost due to the post-war scrapping of warplanes. These new auto replicas were available exclusively through dealerships as a reward for test driving or purchasing the latest full-scale models.

A successful lawyer from a wealthy family, Gallogly invested capital that made the infant company possible. Setting up shop on Eight Mile Road in Detroit, Ford became the primary promo subject matter in those fledgling years, due in part to the auto manufacturer's dominant presence in the market. However, according to Simon, there was another factor at work. It was said that Gallogly's grandfather was one of many people who had lent money to Henry Ford toward the construction of his River Rouge assembly plant in the late 1920s. It was the largest industrial complex in the world at the time and a model of production efficiency. As a result, a relationship between Ford Motor Company and Aluminum Model Toys was cemented years later.

In 1949, a revolutionary change occurred that shaped the future of promos and, subsequently, model kits. The advent of the high-output plastic mold injection method all but eliminated the use of aluminum. Plastic could now be molded in the desired automotive body colors, cutting back on the need for paint. Small metal parts, such as side trim and bumpers, were still utilized on a diminished level until the mid-50s, but an all-plastic body drastically reduced the cost of creating an aluminum shell. With this shift came a revised company name. Aluminum Model Toys now became the AMT Corporation.

Running the business for Gallogly in these early years was an experience pattern maker named George Toteff. "He was the spark plug of the operation," Simon said of Toteff. He piloted the company into the '50s, taking a "hands-on" approach from design to assembly. At this time, much of the actual production was performed by outside sources, leaving primarily design and final assembly in-house. Molding was out-sourced to businesses like Continental Plastics in Detroit, who produced windows and taillights for the promos. Continental remains in business today, manufacturing parts for full-scale autos in the Motor City.

Throughout the 1950's, AMT made a name for itself by producing a slew of successful, 1/25th scale promotional models. Sometime around 1958, however, another ingenious light bulb appeared over AMT designers. The existing tools used to create these promos were gathering dust in warehouses, intact and unused. A spark of inspiration - to whom it is attributed, is a matter of debate - provided a new purpose for these molds. Take an existing unassembled model - usually consisting of 15-20 parts - throw some extra parts in, perhaps louvers and fender skirts, and sell them to hobbyists. During the '50's, customizing was on the rise. The days of hot rods blasting across dry lakebeds were now giving way to street cruising and, consequently, an appetite for wild looks to accompany performance. Spreading out from California came a rising enthusiasm for automobile styling that was frequently expressed by hobbyists and their hand-made auto replicas. Customizing full-scale cars and trucks was a passion for many of these enthusiasts, and now there was a new world of possibilities for reworking their scaled-down versions. A '56 Buick could be assembled as a stock, custom or racing version out of one box, leading to the label, "3-in-1 model kit." In fact, Simon recalls the Buick being produced, selling 600,000 units or better. Further innovation was not far in the future and the path was paved for a cast of creative, hard-working characters to inhabit the AMT Corporation, from heads of design to final assembly.

[Guest 66dragfreak]

You know what? I could care less if the re-release is nothing more than a promo. I'll take whatever I can get my hands on and if it's too simple of a kit, then I'll do what it takes to make it mroe detailed and better suited to my tastes. Just goes to show, you can't please some people some of the time, and you can't please other people any of the time!

Thanks for the history lesson!

[LUKE'57]

Thanks for adding the extra info. I was familiar with the aluminum Ford and there was some multipiece bodies from Revell in the mid-fifties in other scales of then current cars. I mostly pegged '58 as when I started building models and it was planes so I missed those first AMT cars (my first car kit was the Trophy Series AMT '40 Ford sedan around '61 or so.

[Aaronw]

You know what? I could care less if the re-release is nothing more than a promo. I'll take whatever I can get my hands on and if it's too simple of a kit, then I'll do what it takes to make it mroe detailed and better suited to my tastes. Just goes to show, you can't please some people some of the time, and you can't please other people any of the time!

Thanks for the history lesson!

Exactly, I'll take these old kits over no kits anyday.

However I do understand the frustration people have when they don't know better. I mean if you built the '60 Chevy truck which is nicely detailed and then built the '72 Chevy truck which is basically a promo it would make you wonder. The newer truck is an older kit?

I think it would be great if round 2 updated the instructions on these old kits to offer the best kit bashes for those who want full detail from these old kits, then everyone wins.

[James Flowers]

Thanks for the history of AMT. Those old simple kits are what started what we have today . Folks should be thankful that us old folks bought them. With out us not buying them, they would probably would be lucky to have any of the kits today. I wish they would do Promos of all the new cars and trucks today. I think they would sell a ton of them. I for one have seen many a super detailed builds of those old kits. Just don't stop bringing back the old ones.

Edited December 21, 2008 by mustanglover1951

[E St. Kruiser50]

Just goes to show, you can't please some people some of the time, and you can't please other people any of the time!

Thanks for the history lesson!

No kidding Bri It isn't very hard to recognise those "WHINNER'S" as everyone here calls them.

Thank goodness there aren't many here, but those that do I just stay away from them like other's here do.

I don't think the bad attitude is as much about modeling as is is the way they look at their life or maybe there lack of it. Half empty - half full ??

I'll probably hear about this Oh well

[Scott H.]

If there's enough interest, I'll do the research online & from my hobby library & post a long article covering all of this.

Hmmmmm..... Sounds like something that might interest the people subscribing to a certain magazine.... HMMMmmm....

Not that I'm dropping a hint for a certain editor to contact you about it or anything.....

-Scott H.

[Harry P.]

It would make a pretty interesting magazine feature...

[flatheadgary]

i really don't understand people bad mouthing model kits!! i mean, try kitbashing a dozen kits to build what you want plus a lot of evergreen plastic. try building a model of something that's not built as a kit now. if you can master all those skills and get really good at it, i don't think you will complain very much. i look at all kits as building material. i really don't care how detailed or perfect they are. i will use them, cut them up, reglue new pieces on, do whatever it takes to achieve what i want. if all you can do is build exactly what the kit makers give you, then yes, i can see why they fall short of your expectations. think outside the box!! create something nobody else has built. i haven't built a model exactly like the box art since "75. don't get me wrong, i like to see any model built box stock or not. i think the only people that complain about perfection are those people that don't kitbash. if all you can do is, insert tab a into tab b, then i could understand why you would expect tab a to fit perfectly into tab b and when it doesn't you are at a loss and feel the kit makers are doing a bad job. same thing with flash on parts. i don't see why it puts people out so much. i mean really, you are building something, what is so hard about trimming the parts? does it really put that much more time into finishing the kit?

rant over. i feel much better now.

[Art Anderson]

i really don't understand people bad mouthing model kits!! i mean, try kitbashing a dozen kits to build what you want plus a lot of evergreen plastic. try building a model of something that's not built as a kit now. if you can master all those skills and get really good at it, i don't think you will complain very much. i look at all kits as building material. i really don't care how detailed or perfect they are. i will use them, cut them up, reglue new pieces on, do whatever it takes to achieve what i want. if all you can do is build exactly what the kit makers give you, then yes, i can see why they fall short of your expectations. think outside the box!! create something nobody else has built. i haven't built a model exactly like the box art since "75. don't get me wrong, i like to see any model built box stock or not. i think the only people that complain about perfection are those people that don't kitbash. if all you can do is, insert tab a into tab b, then i could understand why you would expect tab a to fit perfectly into tab b and when it doesn't you are at a loss and feel the kit makers are doing a bad job. same thing with flash on parts. i don't see why it puts people out so much. i mean really, you are building something, what is so hard about trimming the parts? does it really put that much more time into finishing the kit?

rant over. i feel much better now.

flatheadgary,

Agreed. All the bashing of older tooling reissued is, IMO, largely the result of the influx of younger (albeit adult) modelers into this hobby. Frankly, it's quite understandable that anyone much younger than say, 50, would have no real memories of those old "modified reissue promos made into model car kits for the LHS", as a kid born in 1959 would most likely have started cutting his modeler's teeth on model car kits produced in the early 1970's, themselves a mix of all kinds of design--from annual series cars, to reruns of Trophy Series (themselves much more sophisticated than their concurrently issued annuals) kits, to the then quite sophisticated Revell and MPC fuel dragsters and funny cars. Thus it has largely been, I think, with even adults younger than say, me, who at almost 65yrs of age, still remembers fondly those first 1958 3in1 kits.

For those of us around and building in 1958, those AMT kits weren't just a "kick start", they really were the beginning of this hobby as it has evolved. Prior to that, there wasn't really any common scale in most plastic model kit manufacturing, particularly on the aircraft side--model planes were simply scaled to fit a standard 2 or 3 model kit box sizes--and car kits pretty much had to fit those same standardized packages as well. If there was a standard scale for model cars prior to 1958, it would have been 1/32 scale, given the sheer number of Revell Highway Pioneers kits that had been released since 1951, other companies tending to go all over the map scale wise (Revell had done, in 1956, a few 25th scale kits, Lincoln Futura, Pontiac Club De Mer, and in '57, the Cadillac Eldorado Brougham, Monogram their 1/20 scale '56 Cadillac Eldorado Biarritz and Coupe De Ville kits, which really set some standards, but at $4.00, were in Birthday or Christmas Present territory--well out of the price range of most kids' weekly allowances or paper-route/lawnmowing money).

Before the AMT 3in1 concept put plastic model car building into afterburner, very FEW model car kits of cars that we kids saw daily on the street existed--the most notable were the neat, but very fussy-to-build Revell-AMT 1/32 scale models of the likes of '55-'56 Buicks, Cadillacs, Chrysler New Yorkers, Ford Fairlane Sunliners, Mercury Montclairs, and a '56 Lincoln Continental Mk II--other than those (and the above mentioned Monogram Cadillacs) there had been a few VERY crudely done Premier 1/24 scale cars, themselves a mix of GM Motorama cars and a handful of models of production cars. All of these had but a limited market, due either to product selection, or their quickly-earned reputation (hey, we 10-12yr old kids spread the word quickly about what was out there, and our opinions of those available kits--the good, the bad, the ugly) for either lousy fit, or very fiddly, complex construction of multi-piece bodies.

Coupled with all the above, model car kits were either found in hobby shops, or the numerous variety stores, hardware, drug or grocery stores. Trouble was, hobby shop owners saw plastic kits as a stepchild, their real money customers were still adults who were into gas-powered balsa flying models (control-line or free-flight, and for some, the then primitive and fledgling radio control planes) or scale model railroading. For those stores, plastic kits were little more than inexpensive stuff for the sons of adult modelers to buy, for 50-cents to perhaps a dollar or so--nothing more, and in many stores, a whole lot less. A young kid was tolerated, but not really catered to. In the dime stores, variety stores and the like, for a kid to buy anything more than a 5-cent Hershey bar (or a Coke at the lunchcounter) was almost certain to evoke suspicion on the part of the sales and checkout clerks--it wasn't even "politically correct" for a kid under his teenaged years to have more than a few nickels or dimes in his pocket--a dollar bill or larger denomination? Talk about the stern, fishy stares that would get you as a 11yr old!

But those 3in1's? Those lit fires among us kids (I was 13, going on 14 when they hit) the likes of which really haven't been seen in the plastic model kit business since. For years, AMT and JoHan, later MPC, simply couldn't bring out a dud--most all annual kits were sell outs, but why? Well first of all, even though they were highly simplified, due as much to the very young market and hands that made up that market, as their having been spun off annual promotional models. When the Trophy Series began, with the legendary AMT '32 Ford Roadster and Coupe in 1959--those moved the goalposts even farther down the field--but those kits today show their age with their glaring inaccuracies when viewed through the much more experienced and demanding 21st Century eyes we all have today. In addition, while the "science" of injection molding, and the capability of engineering complex tooling for this process had been around since early in WW-II, the "art" of creating plastic model kits of any sort was very much in its infancy. Just because the technology existed to mold whatever draftsmen and pattern makers could create--those guys had to move their own crafts beyond their earlier training as designer/creators of industrial products, to the sheer artistry required to scale something down by a factor of 24 or 25, to create scale models--just as we builders can look back and see that it's taken us years and numbers of projects to get to where we are today, it was no different on the manufacturing side of things.

Today, most modelers not old enough to have experienced those halycon days of the 50's and 60's modeling wise aren't going to understand why that '62 Buick Electra 225 comes out of the box with a relatively handful of toy-like parts--unless we older, grayer, fatter or balder seasoned citizens take the time to quietly relate the stories I have alluded to above. In so many cases (more now that Round2/Auto World is on the scene, and apparently willing to resurrect seriously old and all but forgotten tooling), it's also up to us older guys to remind the next generations that if those old tools weren't around, those subjects simply wouldn't be newly tooled--the market for the vast majority of car subjects much more than say, 10yrs before today just don't have enough market potential to risk serious capital on. Oh sure enough, there are older, even ancient-by-today's-standards cars that can still be tooled in today's manner, and those will continue to be kitted as long as there is a model car kit market out there. But, unless something drastically changes, most all kits of the more mundane cars of the 60's will continue to be reissued from those old, "low tech" tools, such as exist, warts and all. And, it's really incumbent on all of us who do know the reasons, the whys, and yet the excitement of those old kits, to spread that message, clearly and carefully.

Phew!

Art

[RodBurNeR]

I just want to add that I am 34 and had a lot of the old kits since growing up "with less money".....I had a lot of old models handed to me before they were crazy priced like today.....say in 1986ish?

I am only adding this because some of us under age 50 are fully aware of the steel axled, no engine having beauties!

I LOVE THEM AND PREFER THEM! MORE FUN ,LESS WORK!

[flatheadgary]

hey!! "older, greyer, fatter, balder seasoned citizens" i represent that remark!! i bow to your superior knowledge Art and the reast of you.

seriously, i don't pretend to know as much about the origins and history of models, i just love to build stuff out of my head. i do like to read about it though and you guys seem to know a lot.

i do know what you mean about when we were kids.

i grew up in a family of 8, no father, on welfare, so money was really tight.

i built planes and tanks, when i could sweet talk my mom into a buck, until my older brother got into his teen years and got seduced by wine, women and CARS. i tagged along for the ride, as i looked up to him. he's about 3 years older than me. wait a minute!! that would make me an old man, ######.

anyway, great info.

[Harry P.]

One important point to keep in mind:

The 1958 AMT "3-in'1"s that were designed and manufactured back in the 50s, as stated, were basically unassembled promos with a few extras thrown in for good measure, and marketed to little kids. Accuracy wasn't exactly number one on the priority list of the manufacturer... making some money by reworking and selling the old product as a "kit" was the goal. So it really makes no sense to criticize those old kits as far as accuracy.

BUT... it is legitimate for consumers today to expect much better from NEWLY TOOLED KITS! A new kit, designed and built from scratch in this day and age, has no reason to be inaccurate. Old kits? Yeah, they're quaint and a "window into the past". New kits? No more excuses for bad product! Can we fix the kit's flaws? Of course we can. That's not the point. The point is, we shouldn't have to!

[FloridaBoy]

Guys,

If I were elected President, I would hire you to be my speechwriters because you articulate exactly what I wanted to say on this subject. Although I love the manufacturers today, AMT is and always will be my sentimental favorite because I was there from the very beginning. No, I didn't have the aluminum 48 Ford like Bluesman Mark has, but my first absolute 1/25 model was the 52 Pontiac 4 door sedan.

It makes one feel old when they write history books about what made me tick when I was young. I read tennis books about Laver and Rosewall, surfing books about Dora and Edwards, model railroad books about Ellison, and now model cars about the glory days of old AMT. Hey, I was there, and those memories are like yesterday.

I want to share something with you guys about the modeling experience back in the late fifties and early sixties. I am writing mostly about my geographical perspective - South Florida, er, Ft. Lauderdale. Back then Ft. Laud was a cultural youth market because it was young and vibrant, and reflected current cultural tastes more than the traditional communities surrounding it. Back then, model cars were THE RAGE. Sears, Burdines K-mart, Zayre, and every department store were stocked full of them particularly at Christmas, then add in drug stores, gift shops, sundry stores, "five and dimes" and bicycle/surf shops, and they sold. There was a hobby shop handling model cars virtually at every major shopping center. When a new model came out, I heard about it because the scuttlebutt made its way through the clubs, as every real car club had a model auxiliary, hobby shops had model car clubs, and each shop held several contests each year. At the War Memorial Convention Center in Ft. Laud, there was an annual "Hobbyrama" which was the size of a boat show today, which handled everyone including clubs, schools, groups, and individuals. One year I entered the model car contest, my train layout in the model train contest, and my school work in Mechanical Drawing - plans and a model of a house I designed. That is how involved it got around here.

Of all of my favorite memories was my original hobby store which no longer exists. Cap'n Jacks in the West Gate Shopping Center. I would bike there or my parents would take me on Friday nights for the club meeting. Walk in and planes were hanging from the ceiling, there were counters of new stuff, and on to the back where they assigned the model kits and Pactra paint. I can remember like yesterday, my pleasant surprise when I saw the 32 Ford 5 window coupe!!! not expected. The owners knew I earned my money mowing yards, so they "saved" one for me for the following Saturday afternon when they knew I would be done. Those were the days. The excitement, the anticipation, the joy of finding, the joy of finished work, and hearing the compliments and support from club members. I sure wish those days were back, but thanks to God I don't have Alzheimer's yet, so the memories are rich and vivid, and hopefully permanent.

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman

[FloridaBoy]

I didn't want to include this in my former memory moment, but I did want to address the scale issue on early AMT cars. Granted they were curbside models with tub interior and no engines. But to me they seemed to be very accurate. I knew Revell was pretty accurate with their tooling as I had built their 56 Buick, but didn't like the multipiece body. AMT to me was right on, but that was memory.

I am working on an original AMT 59 Ford 3 in 1, first deconstructing it, then customizing it and converting it into a full detail model. I am using a 57 Ford as a donor kit and that came out in 62 so the scales weren't too far off. I have purchased over 400 kits since the mid eighties and looked through them from all manufacturers, and this 59 still holds up in my book. I will discard the interior and chassis, and the only difference is the styrene body is thicker than AMT and other kits of today.

The only issue I have is the AMT 40 Willys, which to me looks smaller and thinner than the original Revell 41 Willys (Stone Woods & Cook) but watching a history of the Willys, they alluded that the 40 Willys and 41 were different, larger wider and more stable--was that true? Revell's latest Willys were 41's and still different than the AMT mold.

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman

[Eshaver]

Isn't it interesting what you can learn from this forum as well as the other boards out there ..................Ed Shaver

[Harry P.]

Isn't it interesting what you can learn from this forum

Yeah...and with guys like Art "The Human Encyclopedia" Anderson posting here, you'd have to try really hard NOT to learn a thing or two!

[Harry P.]

No offense, Mark...

but Art is the first person I think of when the subject of the history of model cars (or the history of full-size cars, for that matter) comes up. I imagine he has so much knowledge of the subject crammed into his brain that his head must be the size of a beach ball...

Now that's not to say that there aren't others, like yourself, who also have quite a bit of knowledge of the subject... but come on... in a game of "Model Car Jeopardy", would you bet against Art?

I think a "History of plastic model cars" feature would be terrific in the magazine. It could even be an ongoing regular or semi-regular feature... maybe the story of one particular manufacturer each time. Who wouldn't want to read the story of AMT, Monogram, Aurora, etc.? I know that I'd enjoy seeing something like that in the magazine.

So let's give Art AMT, and Mark, you take JoHan. Who wants to do Monogram?

[FloridaBoy]

I can tell you that it is amazing that so many of us who "were there" are here.

There was this guy featured in an old Rod & Custom Model magazine - remember how great a mag that was? - named Bob Wingate or something, who had an enormous collection of promo's dating back to the first one, and some built up kits, which numbered back then around 600. If he is still active, can you imagine how much that collection has grown since the '63 article?

I found another guy named Bob Sieferd who is a prolific modeler who my eroding memory said he was a regional winner in an old Pactra and he had a large collection. Help me look........

http://www.geocities.com/dreamrod2/science.html

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman

[flatheadgary]

floridaboy, i am not aware of any size differances between the '39-'41 willys other than their different front sheet metal. most people would use fiberglass i piece front ends that seem to always be the '41. i would imagine that was do to the fact most of the fiberglass makers used the '41 to build their molds out of. of course, there were the other fronts used to, but they were probably the original sheet metal. the filthy forty of the s&s racing team comes to mind.

it was the same with the '33 willys too. i am not positive of the years but i think the '33 to '36's fall into this same senario.

[Joe Handley]

I just want to add that I am 34 and had a lot of the old kits since growing up "with less money".....I had a lot of old models handed to me before they were crazy priced like today.....say in 1986ish?

I am only adding this because some of us under age 50 are fully aware of the steel axled, no engine having beauties!

I LOVE THEM AND PREFER THEM! MORE FUN ,LESS WORK!

I hear you, but wasn't fortunate enough to have old kits handed down. I'm 32 and when I'd bought those kits I either knew from reading in SAE or figured out on my own that those kits were around in many cases back when subject was showroom fresh. One thing I've noticed in both current publications is that the reviewer doesn't always mention the age of the kit like was done in years past, and that can probably allow younger folk think that these are new kits, and then the whiney tantrums start

[Guest Davkin]

I have no problem with the reissue of old kits and understand that for the most part that a kit tooled 40+ years ago is not going to measure up to one tooled 10 years or so ago. However I'd sure like to see a more complete description on the box of the contents. For example, if it is a promo style model tell me so on the box somewhere. I think you'd see a lot less complaining if buyers knew what they were getting before shelling out the bucks.

David

[Art Anderson]

No offense, Mark...

but Art is the first person I think of when the subject of the history of model cars (or the history of full-size cars, for that matter) comes up. I imagine he has so much knowledge of the subject crammed into his brain that his head must be the size of a beach ball...

Now that's not to say that there aren't others, like yourself, who also have quite a bit of knowledge of the subject... but come on... in a game of "Model Car Jeopardy", would you bet against Art?

I think a "History of plastic model cars" feature would be terrific in the magazine. It could even be an ongoing regular or semi-regular feature... maybe the story of one particular manufacturer each time. Who wouldn't want to read the story of AMT, Monogram, Aurora, etc.? I know that I'd enjoy seeing something like that in the magazine.

So let's give Art AMT, and Mark, you take JoHan. Who wants to do Monogram?

Just a thought here:

It might work best if whomever teams up to compile such an article work from collective memories and research, rather than one person try to concentrate on any one brand of kit. There's a lot more to the history of this hobby than just the often dry relating that "this company did such and such at so and so time".

I see our hobby as something unique to the Baby Boom era that is still with us today--not many other widespread activities that we kids did back then have that continuing history, the continuum of popularity among the original participants, nor the addition of younger and younger builders as the years go by, as does the model car hobby.

Just a couple of pennies worth.

Art