The dismantling of America continues...

[Harry P.]

Between Sweden and Norway! ! I kid you NOT! Imagine that! All of those SAABs and Volvos and ABBA albums best all of the oil coming out of the House of Saud!! What does Norway make? I dunno. It's only slightly less than Saudi oil.

Perspective, if you will. Thank you.

USA! USA! USA!

And I am a liberal!

I'm very surprised that Saudi Arabia doesn't make the top 20! With all their billions in oil sales I figured they'd be in the top 10 somewhere.

So Turkey's economy is bigger than Saudi Arabia's? Turkey???!!! Really???!!!!

[Modelmartin]

So Turkey's economy is bigger than Saudi Arabia's? Turkey???!!! Really???!!!!

Si, Senor!

They don't make or do anything in Saudi Arabia. They just collect money from foreigners who pump oil out of the land. When the oil is gone they will be penniless and worthless.

Here is the link to GNP lists on Wikipedia -Wikipedia GNP lists It's an eye-opener!

[Art Anderson]

I think we will still be on top for some time. The Chinese have a number of huge problems to deal that the US dealt with a long time ago during the development of the industrial revolution. The learning curve is steep and they are just climbing it now. Remember that they are well over a billion people and we are 300 million and we produce more GNP than them. I believe we produce 14 trillion and they produce 4 trillion buckaroos! Their inefficiencies and corruption really hinder them.

I was wrong about number two economy. It was Japan and Germany is 4th.

Tariffs and protectionism never work in the long run. They protect inefficient industries and things cost more and actually drag the economy down.

Your last sentence says a ton, Andy! Any study of 20th Century history will show that the wave of Nationalism/Protectionism that swept this country through the 1920's, culminating in the Hawley-Smoot Tariff Act of 1930 and dutifullly signed into law by President Herbert Hoover, took a recession and turned it, almost overnight, into the Great Depression, as other countries simply followed suit--world trade dropped like a stone in water very quickly. At the time, the US was only a minor importer, but a major exporter of goods and raw materials, and those markets dried up overnight.

It wasn't until the Kennedy Round Of Tariff Negotiations in the 1960's that world trade rebounded, although we were a much larger exporter than importer following WW-II. While our modern trade balance is way off, into serious deficit country, some major US industries are major exporters, companies such as Boeing, Caterpillar, and the entire US steel industry. In addition, exports are the real driver of US agriculture, which is still the envy, and marvel of the rest ot the planet.

To see what world trade looks like, all one has to do is to stand and watch any transcontinental railroad, look at the container trains. Living where I do, in mid-north Indiana, along one of the principal rail arteries between San Diego, Los Angeles and Norfolk Virginia, we see thousands of seaborne containers daily go through here, the vast majority of which are offloaded on one coast to railroad cars, transported across the entire US, to be loaded on ships going either to Europe or Asia, depending on which direction the train is going. Sure, that traffic practically disappeared about this time last fall, but it is reviving, as are the trains we see here of 85' automobile cars going both ways, and trains of coil sheet steel cars going to Detroit, etc. to supply automakers.

Our US economy has often been characterized as being very much like a supertanker at sea--monolithic, slow to accelerate, slow to stop, and VERY slow to make VERY wide turns (many supertankers take up to ten miles to execute their tightest 180-degree turns, for example).

Buried in all the hype we see in the news these days, is a stream of commentary that we in the US are seeing a fundamental change (and that's change NOT emanating from 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue nor from Capitol Hill) in our economy. Did you know that, for example, the number of transactions at retail paid by debit cards now exceeds, by a fair margin, CREDIT card sales? That is a major shift, MAJOR! People paying cash up front at the store, rather than excercise debt. The firm of Obama, Pelosi & Reid complain that in spite of all the stimuli, banks aren't lending enough money--but news stories abound of bankers stating simply that prospective borrowers aren't exactly beating down their doors these days, a far cry from just a few years ago.

There was a time, perhaps 50yrs ago it began to end, when people used credit far more wisely, for purchasing those few durable goods, and a house to live in, with borrowed money, for all else paid cash. That was the effect, as much as anything, of memories of the Depression of the 30's, which had as one of its root causes, almost unbridled consumer credit extended during the heady days of the Roaring Twenties. While credit cards existed in the 50's, they weren't bank cards, but rather the likes of Diner's Club (pretty exclusive back then, BTW) and American Express (slightly less exclusive), and relatively few merchants accepted them. Consumer credit, outside the likes of GMAC or Ford Motor Credit, was primarily the venue of the small loan companies, Household Finance, General Finance (remember "Friendly Bob Adams"?), or locally owned small loan companies, who tended to know their clientele, understand their situations, and lended accordingly. When our parents went to buy a house, they talked to a local banker, who likely knew them, or could find their credit rating locally, said loan application presented to the bank's loan committee, with often the loan officer having to present the application, and having to defend it in front of sharp-eyed, sharp-nosed upper management. In those days, a Dunn & Bradstreet credit rating was just one factor, not the only one (the other credit reporting companies weren't even thought of yet) in granting or denying the loan. We may well be seeing somewhat a return to that once archaic system, who knows?

While I am 65 yrs old now, and not in the market anymore to buy a house, or even a new car, I still do not see a "dismantling" of our economy, or of our industrial base as you suggest; but rather a change, a transition.

Change, if nothing else, is constant, and ever more rapid than at any time in history. The critical necessity, it seems to me, is to be able to adapt quickly to a changing world--after all, harness makers and buggy makers had to do just that a little over a century ago. People who once found work shucking corn by hand, feeding ears of corn by hand into mechanica shellers had to accept the arrival of the mechanical combine, for example. As old industries slowly die, new ones seem to keep cropping up, as has been the case through most of the history of this country, and others as well.

Art

[Aaronw]

Sorry Harry (and Poland) #18 is Poland, I guess I must have started drifting towards the end of that post.

Saudi Arabia and most of those middle eastern oil producers are one trick ponies, they do sell billions in oil, but that is all the sell. The US is the #3 oil producing nation, Saudi Arabia beats the US by about 10% for #2, the US produces more than twice what #4 Iran does. #1 is not even in the middle east, it is Russia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chart_of_expo...f_oil_by_nation

It is actually rather interesting to see who produces oil, only 4 middle east nations even make the top 10.

[Harry P.]

Si, Senor!

They don't make or do anything in Saudi Arabia. They just collect money from foreigners who pump oil out of the land. When the oil is gone they will be penniless and worthless.

Here is the link to GNP lists on Wikipedia -Wikipedia GNP lists It's an eye-opener!

I see our Arab pals are #23 or 24 (depending on which list you look at). Still, I thought they would have ranked higher. They have, however, by far the biggest GDP of the middle eastern countries. But I also wonder what they'll do when the oil runs out?

[Steven Zimmerman]

You want to know what happens when their oil runs out?....Do some digging and see where the've invested their money..........................

[Aaronw]

You want to know what happens when their oil runs out?....Do some digging and see where the've invested their money..........................

Model kits?

[Rob Hall]

Good riddance...GM is better off without that lame brand of poseur bling trucks. Pontiac is the only GM brand I'm sad to see go this year.

[Rob Hall]

Change, if nothing else, is constant, and ever more rapid than at any time in history. The critical necessity, it seems to me, is to be able to adapt quickly to a changing world--after all, harness makers and buggy makers had to do just that a little over a century ago. People who once found work shucking corn by hand, feeding ears of corn by hand into mechanica shellers had to accept the arrival of the mechanical combine, for example. As old industries slowly die, new ones seem to keep cropping up, as has been the case through most of the history of this country, and others as well.

Art

Yes, manufacturing in the US has been dying off for over 30 years, along w/ other 19th century industries like steelmaking and coal mining. The 21st century in the US is about technology and knowledge work...that's been where a lot of growth has been the last 15 years or so. I'm glad I went into software development after college rather than one of the 'old economy' career paths that have no future.

[Harry P.]

Yes, manufacturing in the US has been dying off for over 30 years, along w/ other 19th century industries like steelmaking and coal mining. The 21st century in the US is about technology and knowledge work...that's been where a lot of growth has been the last 15 years or so. I'm glad I went into software development after college rather than one of the 'old economy' career paths that have no future.

In the first seven months of this year the US has imported more solar panels (in terms of $) than it has exported, a net LOSS. Guess who we import solar panels from, because they are so much cheaper than American made panels??? (Hint: the Chinese.)

So much for the idea of the US becoming the "green jobs" leader!

Looks like the competition has already figured out how to beat us at 21st century technology, too.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Unless we take drastic steps to right our ship, in a few years the only thing that we'll still be making here in America are movies and hamburgers.

[charlie8575]

In the first seven months of this year the US has imported more solar panels (in terms of $) than it has exported, a net LOSS. Guess who we import solar panels from, because they are so much cheaper than American made panels??? (Hint: the Chinese.)

So much for the idea of the US becoming the "green jobs" leader!

Looks like the competition has already figured out how to beat us at 21st century technology, too.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Unless we take drastic steps to right our ship, in a few years the only thing that we'll still be making here in America are movies and hamburgers.

This is a very bad thing. Any country which becomes all or very heavily dependent on having its manufactured goods imported cannot survive, especially if that same country is expected to be a super power!

Remember, our wonderful technology/service economy can't exist without a manufacturing base. When we have none left in this country, we have nothing left to service, and little reason to develop new technology. We become China C. 1900, and I personally can't help but think if the rest of the world would just love to see such a thing. And because many of these jobs simply don't pay as much, and probably never will pay as much, our net earnings, ability to spend and upward mobility of the society will be hampered except for a few. All this with a dollar losing value faster than a speeding bullet. Anyone cheering the end of manufacturing in this country is missing a big, big picture.

Although tariffs and restrictions may have a long-term negative effect, especially when looked at by economic models, they can serve a purpose. And that purpose is to level the playing field, but the retaliation may put us back to where we started or worse.

Business in this country is too over-taxed and over-regulated. Businesses have allowed (sometimes with government coercion, forced,) unions, moonbats and other movements to walk all over them with golf cleats, and then turn around and adopt the obsecene "profit-at-all-costs" business models that drove even more of our jobs overseas.

Jay Leno has made a point repeatedly, and I wish people would listen: if we loose our ability to make stuff here, it's gone forever and we find ourselves at the mercy for the rest of the world. What happens if we have another emergency? A war with China? Where do we get basic necessities?

A question few ask and nobody seems to care about...

Until it's too late...

Charlie Larkin

[Art Anderson]

This is a very bad thing. Any country which becomes all or very heavily dependent on having its manufactured goods imported cannot survive, especially if that same country is expected to be a super power!

Remember, our wonderful technology/service economy can't exist without a manufacturing base. When we have none left in this country, we have nothing left to service, and little reason to develop new technology. We become China C. 1900, and I personally can't help but think if the rest of the world would just love to see such a thing. And because many of these jobs simply don't pay as much, and probably never will pay as much, our net earnings, ability to spend and upward mobility of the society will be hampered except for a few. All this with a dollar losing value faster than a speeding bullet. Anyone cheering the end of manufacturing in this country is missing a big, big picture.

Although tariffs and restrictions may have a long-term negative effect, especially when looked at by economic models, they can serve a purpose. And that purpose is to level the playing field, but the retaliation may put us back to where we started or worse.

Business in this country is too over-taxed and over-regulated. Businesses have allowed (sometimes with government coercion, forced,) unions, moonbats and other movements to walk all over them with golf cleats, and then turn around and adopt the obsecene "profit-at-all-costs" business models that drove even more of our jobs overseas.

Jay Leno has made a point repeatedly, and I wish people would listen: if we loose our ability to make stuff here, it's gone forever and we find ourselves at the mercy for the rest of the world. What happens if we have another emergency? A war with China? Where do we get basic necessities?

A question few ask and nobody seems to care about...

Until it's too late...

Charlie Larkin

Charlie, you do make some valid points, of course, but it seems to me that in all the talk going on all over this country, all the handwringing, the biggest piece of the puzzle, the biggest group of people responsible to a great extent for all the importation of products-once-made-in-the-US are who? I submit that it's me, you, and the other guy down the street, in short just about all of us. The late cartoonist, Walt Kelly, suggested this through the eyes and ears of his little muskrat Pogo. One day, back in the late 1960's, Pogo, who polled his john boat all around Okeefenokee Swamp, making his observations on the world, scrawled on the side of it "We have met the enemy, and they is us!"

Our country's tradition has been, since the dawn of the Industrial Revolution on these shores almost 200 years ago, to demand the greatest value for the least money. It doesn't take an advanced academic degree to see the evidence, it's everywhere, and has been so all these years of our history as a nation, as a society. Even early newspaper advertisements from the mid-19th century touted, constantly, "cheaper prices", "we will not be undersold", and all the way to "We sell for less, Always". Couple that concept, VERY strongly and deeply rooted in our conscienceness, with our equally fervent demand for low inflation (and our's traditionally has been the lowest of any developed, industrial county on the planet, with the possible exception of Switzerland) makes our currency not only stable in relation to other nations, but also makes imported goods automatically less expensive to bring in than to make here, and that's absent any tarriffs or transportation charges. Our traditionally strong currency also makes American made products considerably more expensive to sell in other countries, even without adding in their tariffs and taxes, or transportation costs as well. Further exacerbating this is the practice of numerous countries, China being the prime example, who do not allow their currency to be valued up or down by the marketplace, rather choosing for national or regional issues to artificially peg their currency against ours and those of other importing countries (the Yuan is still pegged at around 8 to the dollar, for example). China, for instance, also has an extremely high unemployed/underemployed work force, whose numbers if known, surely are a closely kept secret by the government for political reasons.

In large part, a lot of what I mention above stems as much from our's being a disposable society--just look at the manmade mountains called landfills! Until the recent emphasis on recycling, the vast bulk of trash being landfilled was solid materials, not food waste. A teacher once told my class in Jr High School that if the then-current trend for tossing it all away continued unabated, the city dumps would become the biggest stock of steel, copper, brass and aluminum, not to mention glass and paper (he likely hadn't even begun thinking about the mounds of plastic items that now get thrown away.

Making this situation even worse is the almost total lack of reparable consumer goods, things like tabletop appliances (can you find a shop to repair your Mr Coffee? Most likely not, and if you could, the cost of having it fixed might be close to what a new one costs). Even the computer being used to write this is, in its basics, unreparable--if the hard drive dies, I will get a new hard drive--don't have any repair shops here that will rebuild it, replace it's motor or bearings; burn out the mother board? Get a new one, the old one won't find a repair shop either, to locate the ruined component, cut it out, solder in a new one. Even in auto repairs, much of what used to be fixable is now a replaceable modular unit, perhaps returnable for refund of the core charge, but more and more unlikely.

To take this directly back to our hobby, if we were still producing model car kits in this country, the cost per kit would likely be high enough to add more dollars onto the current price structure that everyone on boards like this one carp about constantly. But, in the effort to keep selling model car kits to a retail industry which had pretty rigid price point expectations, something had to give, somewhere along the way. So, offshore went production, which incidently for us modelers has had a side benefit--it's possible to produce fairly small runs of reissued kits and still keep the final cost at least in reason vis-a-vis a newer, higher production kit.

But, if nothing else, were we to morph into a society that truly understands that what each of us do, what each of us buys in our daily lives, has at least some effect on our neighbors, and became willing to pay a price for what we buy that sustains its production in this country, by our neighbors, I think this debate would be something that would go away, purely for lack of a market.

Art

[Harry P.]

Our country's tradition has been, since the dawn of the Industrial Revolution on these shores almost 200 years ago, to demand the greatest value for the least money. It doesn't take an advanced academic degree to see the evidence, it's everywhere, and has been so all these years of our history as a nation, as a society. Even early newspaper advertisements from the mid-19th century touted, constantly, "cheaper prices", "we will not be undersold", and all the way to "We sell for less, Always"...

Art

That desire for a bargain is universal to all mankind, not just us. And our economy chugged forward like a huge freight train back then because there was no competition! We Americans made what we needed right here! And we bought what we needed from our own domestic suppliers. We were a very successful self-contained economy, and we didn't have to worry about outside competition because there was none!

A hundred fifty or so years ago China was nothing but a few emperors and a couple hundred milllion peasants farming the land. China didn't actually "make" much of anything, much less compete with our own manufacturers for US consumer dollars. Same with Japan. America had basically no competition. Sure, we imported some items from Europe... fine furniture, silver, porcelain, lace... basically luxury items for the upper class. But the meat and potatos of what we needed–tools, farm equipment, cars, trains, iron and steel, etc.–was all made here in America!

Now the picture is vastly different. Other countries have not only caught up to us in manufacturing... they're outdoing us! When was the last time anyone here bought a TV set made in America? The clothes we wear, the toys our kids play with, the "consumer goods" like toasters, microwaves, cameras... all made elsewhere. And the trend is growing, not slowing.

We still want a good bargain, but increasingly we can't compete with other countries, who can produce the goods we want as a much lower cost than we can produce those goods ourselves! We are currently feeding the economies of other countries instead of our own.

[Custom Hearse]

I feel that if you're going to lock Dave Susan's thread, you should lock this one as well... This is no place for an political talk.

[Harry P.]

I feel that if you're going to lock Dave Susan's thread, you should lock this one as well... This is no place for an political talk.

You're right.