For those of you who compete......

[Modelmartin]

we were lucky enough to enlist the services of the then reigning Miss Oregon. She was more than gratious to be the "trophy girl" and did a great job handing out the awards.

http://public.fotki.com/1320wayne/model_shows/2007-shows/2007-portland-class/

That is cool. She is beautiful and classy. I don't care for the Hooter Girl thing. Leering in public is very declasse' (tacky!) If you need to leer - go online, folks!!

[GrandpaMcGurk]

You asked so here I go........

my biggest beef with model shows or contests isn't who judges them...it's how they are judged.

On one end you have the mega buck pro-builders and on the other, the guys that have no access to hi-tech equiptment or the funds to compete on that level. Far too many times I've seen very imaginative labor intensive models overlooked in favor of lack luster builds with fancy paint jobs.

I really see no way to level the playing field to make it fair for everyone.

As far as the "ladies" go.......go to a local establishment that specializes in just that....you won't be distracted by model cars that way.

[Jon Cole]

Two things...

First, it would really be nice to see the winning model during the trophy presentation. I don't see any practical way of going about that however.

Second, ask participants (especially at NNL's) to please not cover up their info! I like to label the pics, I need to see the name, year, and builder.

[Pete J.]

Just a passing thought. Of those who have participated in this discussion, how many of you have actually judged a contest? I know Mark and I have, how about the rest?

[cruz]

I think that ballots for the people's choice awards should be handed to either people who build or given to the participants of the actual show. There are a lot of people attending these shows which are non-modelers and a lot of them have never even put a model together. People from outside usually don't take the time to see how much effort was put into the models on the tables, specially because, again, they don't build.

[weasel]

Just a passing thought. Of those who have participated in this discussion, how many of you have actually judged a contest? I know Mark and I have, how about the rest?

i have, many times, and, in a couple of states!! lol

well, i was at the contests anyway!! lol

[Len Woodruff]

Just a passing thought. Of those who have participated in this discussion, how many of you have actually judged a contest? I know Mark and I have, how about the rest?

I have judged dozen's and been head judge at many of those.

[Modelmartin]

I have judged many shows over many years. From little club contests to IPMS regionals. I plan to judge many more in the future.

[Railfreak78]

Two things...

First, it would really be nice to see the winning model during the trophy presentation. I don't see any practical way of going about that however.

Second, ask participants (especially at NNL's) to please not cover up their info! I like to label the pics, I need to see the name, year, and builder.

At DSC6 our guys did a slide show on a screen so it showed the car as the winners walked up and got the trophy. Pre historic but effective Also on another note now that I have been in a contest, this may have been covered and I may have missed it but I have 2 things with class rules. This may not affect all or most contests but at DSC 2 classes are at a dis advantage. Nascar in my opinion should not be against a SCCA car or Rolex Grand am series Porsche or a dirt modified or group C race cars. No order but putting these all in compitition circle track is not really fair. But there is no other class for the road course guys. Also the trucks are another catagory that needs attention. A half ton pick up does not need to compete against an 18 wheeler. This led to trucks being in "Truck and light commercial" and in "stock" , "street machine", and in Misc. So all over. Just my 2 cents for future ideas.

[Karmodeler2]

Just a passing thought. Of those who have participated in this discussion, how many of you have actually judged a contest? I know Mark and I have, how about the rest?

I have judged several shows, including IPMS Reginal and National, Local model shows and even some on the west coast.

My biggest complaint is judges not knowing the subject matter. If you don't know, ASK someone who does. Use your laptop to find info on the subject if you have internet access at the show or your I-phone. We all know that there is usually more than just the entrant that knows something about the subject. I don't know NASCAR and refuse to judge it. I don't know what I'm looking at.

If you expect the entrant to know his model and know what class it should go in, then do the entrant the courtesy of having knowledgeable judges.

If you have not built in 10+ years, then I don't think you should be a Head Judge or a leader. We have had so many advances in modeling in the past decade or two, that if you have not used the products, you have no idea the difficulty level or how they work. I think you should have some current building experience to judge. I would not want a single engine Cessna pilot flying my 767 with his experience. I know that's a drastic analogy but I fly 76's for a living. Sorry.

David

[Scale-Master]

“I don't know NASCAR and refuse to judge it.â€

That’s why we have you judge the Lowrider class David… Easy boys, just funnin’

[Modelmartin]

At an IPMS regional they wanted me to judge armor models! Ha! Like I would do that to armor builders. I refused.

[Steve Keck]

Weighing in late as usual here's my 2 cents:

I understand trophies cost more than plaques however, for the kids I want them to go away with a trophy if their model places. Certificates of participation for the rest are OK with me. I would rather receive a smaller plaque so a kid can carry away a real trophy.

Be considerate of the participants and their entourage while the judging is being done. I just attended a contest where the judging started at 1pm and the awards were not over with until past 5pm. The wait was painfull. To this same contest's credit pictures were displayed on a screen for third, second and first in each category, master awards and BOS. Simply wait until each category is complete and take digitals in the order of the awards then scroll throught the file.

I've judged for over ten years both at local, regional and national contests - both IPMS and not. I've had to explain to disappointed participants the whys and why nots. Most are appreciative of the input when given in a constructive manner.

Judge's likes and dislikes have no place in the judging and if they can't separate their preferences from the contest the the contest should be separated from them. It's the best build not what we like.

[modelman71]

my biggest problem with shows being a vendor,competeter and judge is if a club sponsors a show their club members should not be able to compete in show..been to a lot like this and seems like club members are winning making the show seem like a waste for others, they should have a club table and be excluded from the best of catagorys and regular classes just my opinion

[Railfreak78]

That was the theme at DSC. The Cactus Modelers put on the show and had thier own couple of tables and competion. You were able to vote for different things there for the club only like paint,engine,etc. The club was apart from the overall judging of the show. Cool idea!

[Mike Kucaba]

Only one thing! NAME TAGS!! Too much anonymity for me. And none of this nickname stuff First and last given names.(unless you are in witness protection.)

[casassa]

Wouldn't it make sense to keep the categories (street rod, drag, whatever)... but use a point system to judge.

Have a list of categories that each model will be judged on: paint, detail, quality of build, realism, etc. Go with a 1-10 point rating in each category... highest total points wins.

That way you take a lot of the judge's subjective likes and dislikes out of the equation. Doesn't matter if the judge "doesn't like" street rods, for example... because he would have to judge the model in each of the predetermined categories instead of just an overall "impression" he has of the model. Seems like the fairest way to judge, with the least amount of favoritism or subjectivity.

If I was to set up a contest, that's the judging system I'd use. Otherwise, it's nothing more than a popularity contest... which is fine as far as it goes (NNL type show)... but it doesn't really work well as far as determining the "best" model in each class.

Harry, I agree that a point system is great, but it takes a lot more time or a lot more judging to do the judging with a point system. HMCA did that for several years and even with a great swap meet to occupy the time, modelers get impatient waiting for the judges to finish.

[LoneWolf15]

I believe that a point system goes a long way toward rectifying some of the problems we all face . If a modeler would score a 9 on workmanship and a 5 on paint work , this would be an indicator as to where the individual needs to work to improve their skill . It would also alleviate the personal prejudice angle that quite a few judges exhibit. Believe me . it does exist , I've witnessed it more times then I would like to count !

I also believe that this would also take alot of the resentment or questions out of the equation that many modelers exhibit or have at the end of the day . If a set of rules were to be laid out across the board for shows to follow , eventually , modelers would start to catch on and their skills would improve with each and every show.

If more clubs would adopt this system it would make it easier for modelers as it would act as a barometer , skillwise . If a modeler scores consistently in a 5 to 7 range in a certain category , they would not be able to lay blame on the judges after one or two shows. The blame would fall directly onto the modeler's shoulders where it belongs . Too often , modelers find it easier to lay the blame elsewhere , rather then face their own inadequacies when it comes to certain skills .You might be able to blame a set of judges at one show , but not 3 or 4 . There would be no place to run and no place to hide when it comes to the truth of the matter.

Donn Yost

Lone Wolf Custom Painting

[Ramcharger]

I believe that a point system goes a long way toward rectifying some of the problems we all face . If a modeler would score a 9 on workmanship and a 5 on paint work , this would be an indicator as to where the individual needs to work to improve their skill . It would also alleviate the personal prejudice angle that quite a few judges exhibit.

I also believe that this would also take alot of the resentment or questions out of the equation that many modelers exhibit or have.

If a modeler scores consistently in a 5 to 7 range in a certain category , they would not be able to lay blame on the judges after one or two shows. The blame would fall directly onto the modeler's shoulders where it belongs . Too often , modelers find it easier to lay the blame elsewhere , rather then face their own inadequacies when it comes to certain skills .You might be able to blame a set of judges at one show , but not 3 or 4 .

Excellent points, Donn. The problem seems to be that it's very difficult to look at your own stuff with a critical eye. I have a car, a green chopped and sectioned Deuce, that never has won a thing. I pull it out of the box and a crowd gathers to oooh and ahh. I place it on the table and nothing. So I ask some of my buddies what they think, nothing, they love the car. I have other cars that aren't built as well (in my opinion) that get hardware. It would be nice to know what the judges see that I (we) don't.

The only thing I see that could be wrong with this system is judges being too lazy to use it, or skewing the results to let their favorite car win. For me it would help me to improve if I knew what the judges could see that I cannot. For most people it is easier to blame the judges or the system or a multitude of other things rather than their abilities. What really bothers me about these threads is that most people don't seem to realize that it is a model car CONTEST. There will be losers and winners and someone will probably build something better than what you did. If you cannot see that going into the contest you should stay home. If you get beat, you need to build better! If you want best of show you have to be willing to put the time, effort and money it takes to win that award. It is not easy to win at any show.

I do have some questions about the idea of a points system. What would be the judging categories? Paint is obvious. Build Quality? That could be subjective. Detail? What about box stock? Would these change for each class? Would the ratings be 10 to 1 or 1 to 5? Would the total points be the same in each class? How could a standard set of judging criteria be set up for all shows? I love the idea, but I wonder how to make it work.

Thanks, Donn for bringing this up.

[LoneWolf15]

Ron,

I think that the point system would remove quite a bit of the nonsense that goes on at certain shows . If a well done model scores 25 out of a possible 50 , folks are going to catch on real quick . That is when the host club will be forced to step in and correct the problem . More often than not , the big picture is missed in these situations .

While it is a fact that the club is hurting their own future attendance numbers by allowing this to go on , more importantly , they are doing serious damage to the hobby itself . Shows allow modelers to purchase kits , aftermarket parts , decals , etc at very good prices . They either introduce or reintroduce people to our hobby , another important factor ! More people spending money on the hobby leads to new kits being issued ,new parts , decals , etc , becoming available for all to enjoy. Hence , our hobby thrives , everybody wins ! The fact that shows are a great way to interact with other modelers , pick up new tips and ideas , hang out with your buddies , etc , goes without saying !

As to the classes , they should remain the same Judging system can be based on a 1 to 5 or 1 to 10 basis . Points are added up , the 3 highest scores win awards . Those that don't will have a better idea of where their modeling skills need improvement , especially after attending several shows with the same model. The numbers and or results will tell the tale .

Judging criteria.... Paint/ Finish , Workmanship , Detail , Authentic appearance ,and Craftmanship. should be mainstays . If you really sit down and think about it , this criteria can be applied to the Box Stock Category without a problem .

As for the critical eye , no one beats me up more so than myself. On a regular basis , I am kicking my own behind half way through a build because I feel that I should have approached this or that diffrently . This is the reason I generally build three or four of the same kit . Some day I might be satisfied , but I won't hold my breath until it happens ! If I get beat at a show . it's back to the table for me , try , try again . It's that warrior / competitive mentality that the Marine that raised me instilled oh so many years ago ! Always do your best , be gracious whether you win or lose , and never , ever quit !

The warm , fuzzy , everybody wins , whether they desrve it or not attitude , has no place in the contest arena . You either win or you lose , what you take from it , or do with it after the fact , now that is up to the individual . Bottom line , it should always be handled with class . Sadly enough , more often than not , it simply is'nt ! It gives the entire hobby a black eye and we are all the lesser fot it .

Donn Yost

[LoneWolf15]

Blues ,

I like what you've proposed , but I think it raises other problems and questions . First off , who decides what category a model is going into , the modeler , the judges , or the host club itself ? That could easily lead to a knock down drag out right then and there !

Outside of the Box Stock category , the fact that not all kits are created equal becomes a problem in itself . A pro stock Camaro kit is going to have much more detail coming out of the box as compared to a '62 Belair . This will have a significant impact on the number 2 or number 3 categories.

As for lumping all types builds in a numbered category , this puts more pressure on the judges , not all judges are schooled in all types of builds . In my opinion , you are now competeing against the judges and yourself , rather than your fellow contestants. Consider me old fashioned , but I'd rathet compete within the designated category that I built the car for . I enjoy walking into a show and seeing the divided classes. I also believe that the viewing public feels the same way . Drag nuts , street rod nuts , and so on and so forth , hang out at those particular tables all day long .

Local IPMS clubs have come up with something similiar to your suggestion with the gold , silver , bronze , style of judging . This has fallen out of favor with the IPMS ruling body , it is an ongoing mess ! I considered this to be a middle of the road approach to appeasing both sides of the hard core competitors / everybody should win / factions.I do believe that the playing field needs to be leveled between competitors , the judges , and the shows themselves . It will be best for all once it's said and done !

Donn

[Ramcharger]

Mark,

Without intending any disrespect, I'm not a fan of the degree of difficulty system you propose. My biggest problem with it has to do with it being a handicapping system. I'm not so sure I want to build the best built middle of the road model. In my opinion, it promotes mediocrity. One of the reasons I try to build better is because I want to beat the best model on the table. Part of the game in any competition is the fact that you will usually start at the bottom and as you improve you move up the "food chain". Box Stock is a great place to hone and improve the basic skills needed to compete and win.

I agree with Donn, grouping the cars by degree of difficulty instead of type would make the show less of a show. I'm also thinking it would be way harder to judge. This could also be a judge's nightmare! Imagine switching from drag to street rod in a single category! We have a hard enough time finding judges as it is.

I've been to many contests and I rarely see poor judging. Most of the time the winner is clear from the start. Have I ever felt slighted at a show? Sure. Have I been baffled by a judges decision? Sure. But all in all I can see their point, even when I lose. Even in the case of the green Deuce I mentioned earlier, I may not know why its losing, but they must see something I can't see. The solution is as Donn said, build better. Why water down the competition? I know you can be outspent by another modeler, but that is the price of admission.

Donn,

I agree wholeheartedly! The most damage done by poor decisions at a show hurt the host club. The guy that walks away mad at the results tells his friends and so on until your show has a poor reputation and no one shows up. I've seen it happen. As far as everyone getting an award, bah! Awards are given to those who are special, if everyone gets one, you ain't so special, are you? Great discussion!

[Karmodeler2]

What really bothers me about these threads is that most people don't seem to realize that it is a model car CONTEST. There will be losers and winners and someone will probably build something better than what you did. If you cannot see that going into the contest you should stay home. If you get beat, you need to build better! If you want best of show you have to be willing to put the time, effort and money it takes to win that award. It is not easy to win at any show.

The warm , fuzzy , everybody wins , whether they desrve it or not attitude , has no place in the contest arena . You either win or you lose , what you take from it , or do with it after the fact , now that is up to the individual . Bottom line , it should always be handled with class . Sadly enough , more often than not , it simply is'nt ! It gives the entire hobby a black eye and we are all the lesser fot it .

Donn Yost

Ron & Donn,

Thank you soooooooo much for saying the things above.

I have uttered those words countless times and it seems only a few get it. The builder I am today came out of getting my butt handed to me on numerous occasions. I did not try and change the rules, judging, classes or the entire show. I changed my building habits and improved my skills. And guess what? It worked!

Thanks for saying what you did. You are singing my song!!!

I believe that I take the chance of being a winner or a loser every time I step into the contest area to compete. I know that going in and can accept either one. I don't think most people see it that way.

And just because you have a trophy, does not mean you are a great model builder. The absence of one does not mean you are a bad one. It would be a sound practice if most of us understood this.

Thanks for bringing this stuff up.

David