Can anyone explain.........

[Pete J.]

Just to start; beauty is in the eye of the beholder. there are many examples of nice looking cars from France, just as Italy. However, their style is different. But where France and Italy try to make their cars look nice, try Germany! Seriously; think of it. There are barely any interesting cars made in Germany that look nice, other than the 356 Porsche.

Germany - BMW 507, M1, Z8, any 800 series - Mercedes 300SL gullwing, AMG SLS, 280SL pagoda roof, C111 - Porsche Carrera GT, 911 GT 1(yes there were a few road versions) Just to name a few.

[Modelmartin]

Nothing against those that like any foreign made car but as far as I'm concerned they can not compete with the style and performance of American Built Fords, Chevys and Chryslers, Especially those built from 1935 to 1965 or there abouts.

But that is just my opinion.

American cars were, by and large, the best built cars and most advanced up to about late 60s or so. The foreign manufacturers starting stepping up their game and the American car companies started their descent in the early 70s through horrible mismanagement. There were always exceptions to that, of course like Mercedes, pre WWII Renaults, etc. I don't think anything rusted faster than late 50s Chryslers and GM cars, though! There were a lot of headlight buckets falling off here in Minnesota.

[Art Anderson]

I was just viewing Harry's famous weekly car quiz and I had a Bill Engval random thought. Can any one explain why the French, who are world famous for their high sense of fashion, good taste, and exquisite art have, with the exception of Ettore Bugatti, failed to create a truly ironically beautiful automobile. The French garage is full of quirky, weird, and just plain hideous automobiles but none other than the classic Bugatti's, take the breath away. The Italians do it on what seems to be a weekly basis. The Japanese have their share. Every American company has at least one classic they can point to. Even the Germans can compete in this arena. What the heck is wrong with the French and their automobile designers?

Pete,

Have you considered that in Europe, certainly post-WWII, the various national economies were dead flat on their backs? With very little in the way of petroleum deposits in Western Europe, gasoline could be in short supply, and expensive when you found it, according to friends and family who spent any serious time on the continent.

While yeah, the luxury or high performance carmakers did make cars that were literally palettes for some of the finest, most daring of stylists; the vast majority of cars produced there for decades were not only tiny in comparison to what we Americans had at our disposal, they were much more focused on being affordable basic transportation. 10-12 feet of Volkswagen, Citroen 2CV, Renault's, Fiats, DKW's, and the like simply did not allow for the swoopy sculptured styling that the upper crust of European Society could afford, nor did they do much for any but the most eccentric of American buyers either. Tailfins on a British or European subcompact looked like, well mere nubbins. Long, low and wide styling as practiced in the US for about 30 years looks both short and stubby, the cars would come out narrow and tall, by comparison. The Renault Dauphine, if one looked beyond its quirks and it's serious mechanical failures, was at least a very neat looking little car in 1959. Fiat's 1964 1100D 4dr sedans were just neat as heck, while being one of the cars that drove US owners AWAY from Fiat for evermore (they were simply junk underneath).

It's with sports cars that European and British makes excelled quite well in the styling department. While their forms followed functions very closely, they were at least serious attempts at being "flagship" designs for their respective makers.

When the Detroit Big Three were forced to make compact cars, then subcompacts, they too looked short, stubby, tall and narrow in many cases. Some were just plain ugly upon later reflection as well. Most of them had their quirky periods as well. It just took time, stylists working hard (often with very tightly limited budgets) before they began to get some pizazz into such small packages.

Art

[Van Halen]

Theres only one french car i think is amazing.. and i think you've all forgot ?

Le Alpine Renault ! Its such a beautiful car ..

[Jon Cole]

The French have made some funky stuff!

Besides, beauty is in the eye of the beer holder.

[sjordan2]

If by performance, you mean torque & thus acceleration, then yes, an American V8 is going to be superior. If you factor in many other performance criteria, then the average American cars of the time span you mention fall far short overall. I know. My first car was a 1964 Triumph TR4. At the same time my mother drove a 1971 Cadillac Coupe DeVille, with the gigantic 472 CI engine. It had gobs & gobs of torque & would cruise all day long at 70+ MPH, & was a nice car to drive, as long as the road was straight. My little TR4 though, was a lot more fun to drive, & as far as cornering & handling goes, it ran rings around the muscle cars of the era. Most of my high school comtemporaries couldn't keep up with my Triumph when the roads got twisty.

Well, the most fun cars I ever owned were the beautifully designed '59 Alfa Giulietta spider, '66 Alfa GTV, '71 Alfa 1750 spider and Porsche 944. All were serviced by the book (and more), but they all disintegrated from poor materials and workmanship (ever have an Alfa door handle break off in your hand or have a turn signal snap off? Not to mention endless valve jobs, Weber carburetor problems, replacement water pumps; transmission overhauls, etc.). While I'm an experienced sports car driver, they almost bankrupted me by the time I was a few years out of college. Thankfully, I never had to cope with 50's–70's English cars. I think we're not just talking about styling here, but I still dispute that the Europeans didn't turn out interesting cars. To Art's point, however, the sports cars were cool but the run-of-the-mill passenger cars were less than inspired for a variety of reasons.

[Karmodeler2]

but the run-of-the-mill passenger cars were less than inspired for a variety of reasons.

Really??????

I could offer more if you need them. These are 4 passenger cars. In fact, my 3000 has 4 seats in it.

David

[sjordan2]

Really??????

I could offer more if you need them. These are 4 passenger cars. In fact, my 3000 has 4 seats in it.

David

I don't need more examples. In my post on this particular subject, I said run-of-the-mill, like the higher-volume cars from Renault, Citroen, VW, etc., and not their specialty cars like a Citroen SM. And certainly not like your examples of a Facel Vega or luxury Jaguars, for sure, which we've already covered regarding excellent design. US high-volume cars of the time, while specialized and offered in a variety of more or less desirable forms, included generally commonplace models with inexpensive, basic packages such as Camaros, Chargers, Challengers, Firebirds, Mustangs and many more – all 4-seaters, and no one at the time knew how some of their models would be valued today. As Art mentioned, European companies had to deal with an entirely different set of challenges regarding their output than US carmakers did, with a telling effect on design quality. Some speak fondly of a Renault Dauphine or LeCar, but these are not great achievements and do not sell for megabucks at auction regardless of provenance.

Edited September 12, 2010 by sjordan2

[DRG]

My remarks were and still are a reflection of my personal likes and dislikes when it comes to cars. As far as I am concerned there is NO competition for a 1957 Chevrolet. Even the 55 and 56 were in a league of thier own. We won't even mention the 53 Corvette or the 55 Thunderbird.

It has never been about handling performance or actually for that matter horsepower.

It is about styling in my opinion.

Naturally there are some exceptions.

[Karmodeler2]

, I said run-of-the-mill, like the higher-volume cars from Renault, Citroen, VW, etc., and not their specialty cars like a Citroen SM.

Gotcha

[sjordan2]

My remarks were and still are a reflection of my personal likes and dislikes when it comes to cars. As far as I am concerned there is NO competition for a 1957 Chevrolet. Even the 55 and 56 were in a league of thier own. We won't even mention the 53 Corvette or the 55 Thunderbird.

It has never been about handling performance or actually for that matter horsepower.

It is about styling in my opinion.

Naturally there are some exceptions.

I absolutely agree with you. I love those cars (and I like the '58 Impala coupe better than the '57 BelAir, and a ton of people will disagree with that). My only problem has been with statements that the French, Germans, et al., haven't produced superb examples of automotive design, but I support the fact that they may have been weak in the high-volume, daily driver segment.

Edited September 12, 2010 by sjordan2

[Modelmartin]

(and I like the '58 Impala coupe better than the '57 BelAir, and a ton of people will disagree with that).

I agree with you! The 58 and 61 Impalas are the best looking Chevies in my book. I love 59s too. The best looking of the 55-57 are the 55s. It's a more pure design. The 56 and 57 are not bad, of course.

[Modelmartin]

Besides, beauty is in the eye of the beer holder.

Love the photoshop specials, The Citroen hauler is great!!! It is configured like the Mercedes high speed transporters. I would build a model of that!!! If I had time.

[charlie8575]

And you know how many gears are on a French Tank?

5 reverse, and 1 forward.........in case they attack from the rear.

David

Just like their classic tactic...? Y'know, surrender!

Charlie Larkin

[Brett Barrow]

[tongue-in-cheek] Y'all do realize that this car - The Facel Vega HK500

was the fastest production car in the world in it's time.

I'd say the French can do style and performance!!! The secret???

It had a HEMI

And we thought good ol' Carroll Shelby®©™℗ was the first guy to stick American Power in a European chassis!

[/tongue-in-cheek]

Edited September 13, 2010 by Brett Barrow

[B_rad88]

now there has been several french cars that made automotive history, and style...... i really like the following french cars:

renault avantime

renault r5, r5 gt turbo, r5 turbo (1&2)

renault espace (released when chrysler released the caravan here in the usa, truely ahead of its time, so far in fact, that no one got it when it first came out, in first month sales they only sold 9, just 9 epsaces!)

renault-alpine a110

renault-alpine a310

renault-alpine a610

renault-alpine gta

renault sport spider(one of my favs!)

renault clio v6

peugeot 205 gti1.6, 205 gti1.9, 205 t16

peugeot 106 ralley and gti

citroen ds (1966 and 1974 desings)

venturi coupe 260lm

venturi coupe 260 atlantique

venturi transcup 210

venturi transcup 260

venturi atlantique 300

venturi atlantique 300 bi-turbo

venturi atlantique 300 gtr

mvs venturi

venturi atlantique

venturi 400gt

venturi 500lm

venturi 600lm

venturi 600slm

venturi fetish (is the world's first eletric 2seater sports car, and only 25 where made!)

venturi gt3

thats all i can think of for now, LOL.

Edited September 13, 2010 by B_rad88

[Brett Barrow]

now there has been several french cars that made automotive history, and style...... i really like the following french cars:

renault-alpine a110

I forgot about that one, and it's one of the few cars mentioned in this thread we can build a plastic model of.

[elan]

People who think all American cars are attractive never looked closely at a Corvair, an Edsel, a Vega, or a Falcon.

[Harry P.]

People who think all American cars are attractive never looked closely at a Corvair, an Edsel, a Vega, or a Falcon.

I don't know... these two look pretty good to me!

[Modelmartin]

[tongue-in-cheek]

And we thought good ol' Carroll Shelby®©™℗ was the first guy to stick American Power in a European chassis!

[/tongue-in-cheek]

Actually Sydney Allard was sticking Caddy motors in some of his sports cars in the early 50s! So was Briggs Cunningham.

The Vega was a good looking car, it was just a sh!tbox mechanically. The Edsel looked better then it's contempoary Lincolns, I think.

[sjordan2]

One can dis the Vega for all kinds of reasons, but I thought the styling was very nice and sophisticated. Even the poor, unlamented Pinto had much better styling than the VW and other European minicars that it was meant to challenge, regardless of explosive gas tanks. And I totally agree with Harry that the last generation Corvair Monza was excellent. We have a very large club in the Knoxville area that loves this car. I totally disagree, however, about the boxy Falcon.