Jerry Steinbacher Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Vacuum motors are not sealed. I retired last year from Shop-vac after thirty-four years,so I have some experience with vac motors. There is a warning on all units to the effect not to pick up flammable liquids or vapors. I spent a number of years in the lab at s-v and part of our job was to investigate motor failures sent to us by customers. You would be amazed at what some people use their shop vacuums for. But back to the question. it is not a good or safe idea to use a vac to evacuate paint over spray. It is just an explosion in the making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony T Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 So I suppose hooking up the old Filter Queen to a length of hose isn't a real good idea for solvent based paints... I used one on a make-shift spray booth (moving box, old vent at the top, filter queen hose taped to it), but strictly used water based paints for the reasons stated. For spray cans I go outside and use the hand held method - pretty good results at -20 recently!! Had to watch for snow blowing off the roof though! Safety first is the best way to go, and knowing the possible hazards involved with any product you use is a good way to limit the possibility of problems. Anything flammable, best to be real respectful of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaronw Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 A shop vac is a horrible idea, because they collect the fumes making them far more likely to reach a level of vapors to ignite. To make it worse, these vapors are now contained so instead of a flash fire you have a bomb. If money is really that tight, you can build a small booth similar to those commercially available for about $100. The blower is the most expensive part, Grainger has a 130 cfm shaded pole blower for $73 which is enough for a 16x16" cross draft booth, or a larger downdraft booth. A 4x8 sheet of 3/8" plywood is around $25 and provides ample material for a 16x16" box. A large booth (30x30" +/-) can be built for less than $250 There is really little legitimate reason to take unneccessary risks as a proper DIY booth is quite affordable. All of the commercially available hobby booths I've seen use a shaded pole (squirrel cage) blower, not explosion proof fans, and not bathroom or computer fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pharr7226 Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 (edited) This thread probably turned into something that Virgil did not intend and I'm glad that the moderators have not pulled it. I think "spirited" discussion of a very important topic is good for all of us. I built a diy spray booth with a used stove fan for under $50.00. When I learned about the safety risks involved and read more than one post from or about people who were actually burned while using a nonsealed fan motor, I stopped using it and got Paasche booth. I use an amazon wish list for birthday and holiday gifts and I encourage my friends and family to make purchases off my gift list. My booth was a birthday gift from my gift list and it is by far, the most used gift I've ever received. Some of you might consider creating a gift list and putting your hobby-desired purchases, including a spray booth, on it. Edited March 4, 2011 by pharr7226 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drewbal Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 awesome i was just looking to make a spray booth I'm new to building but love this hobby already so much you can do and learn i love it I'm going make a booth today ill post a video for you guys to check out when I'm done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W117monte Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 I am not an electrician. Thanks to the people pointing out the dangers of using unsealed motors and flammable paints. i would not have thought twice about it before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaughn Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 There is an active thread that is titled, "just because you can doesn't mean you should" which is very appropriate for this topic. We take for granted that hobby paints are flammable and the fumes can be explosive under ideal situations. Commercially available paint booths that were designed by experts with our safety in mine are not that out of reach for most of us and should be considered a "long-term investment" in our hobby. Paasche and Pace have paint booths available for less than $250. Save your money and do it right. These booths have a purpose designed fan with enough CFM's to pull paint overspray and fumes out of your painting area and do it safely. One of these booths should last 10, 20 years or more so, when you amortize the cost over that long period is like one or two kits per year. I bought a Pace Peacekeeper Deluxe four years ago and it has been the best investment I have made in the hobby. I can paint indoors anytime I want to with no paint fumes to disturb my family. When I used to paint in an enclosed garage without a booth, the fumes would find there way into the house, especially when painting with Duplicolor automotive paints. Not any more. No more worries about temperature, humidity, etc. I vent mine out the window. The filter catches most of the overspray so no worries about paint settling on the side of your house. TCP Global has Paasche 22" booths for about $220 and Pace has two models under $250 with free shipping. The top of the line Pace is $435. We all have plenty of models to build. Don't buy any for a couple or weeks/months and use that money to buy a proper paint booth. You will be glad you did. Hey Mark. I am with you. You led me in the right direction with my airbrush and compressor and also the Pace Peacekeeper paint booth. Its great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamez Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Now that al the legalities have been brought up and everyone can make up there own minds on what they wish to do..... I have to say i've got a question or two. As far as sealed/explosion proof fans, definitely, giver' and do it the right way, but..... What exactly is wrong with using the computer fans?> or for that matter, any brushless fan, as any computer fan I have ever pulled apart has been. Brushless fans have no open ignition, hence being brushless, they are 100% magnetic drive. Now I know that someone is going to say that they are not designed for use with the fumes, and your right, and that the #1 reason I have ever heard not to use them is dust/paint buildup causing a fire from the heat of operation...... But you have to realize, any fan motor that is allowed to collect dust and is never cleaned is a danger, so I believe that it is more an issue of proper filtration and maintenance. I personally use a paint booth built with 4 3" computer case fans and 1 5 inch inline helper fan. All are brushless and have no spark possibilities from regular operation. Once a year I pull it apart and clean it, and with just a regular home furnace filter, I have yet to have much of any paint build up in the pas 3 years. This booth gets used with all paints and chemicals as I paint and clean car parts in it all the time, it was built before I bought my airbrush for use with rattle cans. This is my opinion, and nothing more. excellent how to, just make sure your fan is brushless and gets cleaned regular Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scalenut Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 I have to agree ..I've been using computer fans for 7 years .ofcourse I don't go spraying lacquer thinner into the motor.I use mainly acrylics But In my 30 years building I have never read an actual case of an airbrush booth of that type flashing/exploding. Can someone please post a case of of an airbrush booth catching fire ? I would be interested in reading what kind of "booth" they were using. I also think it's important to filter. ...some people mention venting directly to the atmosphere ... that's not too cool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmikeman Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 i think some people are missing the bigger picture here. although acrylic paints are waterbased, they are also a plastic base. which plastic burns. the fumes from acrylic won't likely flash but, if enough of the residue builds up, you could have a fire. the bigger picture i'm referring to is, how much other paint do we have around our booths? bottles, rattle cans, bondo, thinner, paper and plastic products. it only takes one spark, not only from a booth but, from a light or tool or what have you. i don't care what kind of booth you have, if it has a fan or light, you have the potential for a fire. if a fan is binding you will have heat. (even with explosive proof or sealed fans) my point is be careful guys and use common sense and it probably wouldn't hurt to keep a fire extinguisher around. Happy Building Guys!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spad007 Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 i think some people are missing the bigger picture here. although acrylic paints are waterbased, they are also a plastic base. which plastic burns. the fumes from acrylic won't likely flash but, if enough of the residue builds up, you could have a fire. the bigger picture i'm referring to is, how much other paint do we have around our booths? bottles, rattle cans, bondo, thinner, paper and plastic products. it only takes one spark, not only from a booth but, from a light or tool or what have you. i don't care what kind of booth you have, if it has a fan or light, you have the potential for a fire. if a fan is binding you will have heat. (even with explosive proof or sealed fans) my point is be careful guys and use common sense and it probably wouldn't hurt to keep a fire extinguisher around. Happy Building Guys!!! Any Computer fans i have are Brush-less. i might be wrong but no brushes no sparks. the fans i have don't get hot. they are double ball bearing and i use activated charcoal air filters they are replacement filters for room air cleaners.5 bucks for 2 i have some battery powered lights i will say not too hot and not really dangerous. one must use common sense. Blasting a flammable fog direct into or at any thing is not a good idea. Baffle the air flow suck/blow it away from the fan, filter it. Try and be safe. But still model as best as one can . I wish you all to have fun not blow up you house. How about a water fall booth?..Ha Ha Snicker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LOBBS Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 (edited) If you're going to build one at home, do it right. I'll post these instructions again on this thread to build a properly ventilated booth. It's not my write-up, it was posted years ago by Klaus Raddatz. I've built several booths using these instructions and have never had any issues of any kind. The only reason I've built several was to improve materials and/or change the design to fit my personal preferences. See attached filePaint Booth Design.rtf Edited March 6, 2011 by LOBBS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaronw Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 I have to agree ..I've been using computer fans for 7 years .ofcourse I don't go spraying lacquer thinner into the motor.I use mainly acrylics But In my 30 years building I have never read an actual case of an airbrush booth of that type flashing/exploding. Can someone please post a case of of an airbrush booth catching fire ? I would be interested in reading what kind of "booth" they were using. I also think it's important to filter. ...some people mention venting directly to the atmosphere ... that's not too cool There have been 2 or 3 posted in the last year or two, one was related to using a shopvac as the fan and it resulted in serious injuries because the cannister went boom, another was a home built booth that caught fire, less severe injuries but as I recall some eye damage, there may have been a 3rd (or 4th) but I could also be bluring them together or they may have been reposts of the same event. I don't have links to either as I didn't save them, but a search might turn up the posts. I couldn't tell you what the specific issue is with computer fans, I just know all of the commercially available booths I looked at use a regular (not explosion proof) squirrel cage blower. I also ran it past the fire marshall I work with and he said the squirrel cage was acceptable for my needs (in other words if I blow up my garage he won't say I told you so ). Out of curiosity what kind of CFM and cost are you looking at with those computer fans? I have a hard time imagining that they can push anything close to the recommended volume of air without buying a stack of them. If that is true they would have to be super cheap to be cost effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spad007 Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 There have been 2 or 3 posted in the last year or two, one was related to using a shopvac as the fan and it resulted in serious injuries because the cannister went boom, another was a home built booth that caught fire, less severe injuries but as I recall some eye damage, there may have been a 3rd (or 4th) but I could also be bluring them together or they may have been reposts of the same event. I don't have links to either as I didn't save them, but a search might turn up the posts. I couldn't tell you what the specific issue is with computer fans, I just know all of the commercially available booths I looked at use a regular (not explosion proof) squirrel cage blower. I also ran it past the fire marshall I work with and he said the squirrel cage was acceptable for my needs (in other words if I blow up my garage he won't say I told you so ). Out of curiosity what kind of CFM and cost are you looking at with those computer fans? I have a hard time imagining that they can push anything close to the recommended volume of air without buying a stack of them. If that is true they would have to be super cheap to be cost effective. Fans Fans i use two 120x38mm fans side by side at over 100cfm each ( = 200 cfm plus)they are used take outs from old computers basically free. to me you might buy new similar for 15 bucks each off the net. i have a short run for the air and don't use the thing for more than a few minuets at a time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 acrylic paints are not "water based" they are "acrylic based",, they are water soluble , and easily cleaned up by water prior to curing.That's the ONLY thing they have to do with ...WATER I guess it depends on who you ask. From About.com: Acrylics are water-based paints, which means they can be mixed with water to thin them down and you clean your brushes with water. They’re made from pigment mixed with acrylic resin and emulsion. From Wikipedia: water serves as the vehicle for an emulsion (suspension) of acrylic polymer that is the binder in acrylic paint. ...acrylic paint is "water-based" (or sometimes "water-borne"). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmikeman Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 for what it's worth. i contacted Paasche about my spraybooth yesterday and asked if it had an explosion proof fan motor. i have the Hssb-22 from Tps Global. here is their response: If it is our HSSB-22-16 then no the fan is not Explosion proof so should only be used for water based paints. Our BBF and EBF series booths all come standard with Exp Motors and tube axial fans. They are also set up for businesses as far as meeting OSHA and NFPA standards which the HSSB models are not. Thanks, Brian Pettersen Paasche Airbrush Co 4311 N Normandy Ave Chicago, IL 60634-1395 (800) 621-1907 et 121 __________________________ i guess life IS like a box of chocolates, after all. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaronw Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Fans Fans i use two 120x38mm fans side by side at over 100cfm each ( = 200 cfm plus)they are used take outs from old computers basically free. to me you might buy new similar for 15 bucks each off the net. i have a short run for the air and don't use the thing for more than a few minuets at a time. That is a lot more CFM than I expected I can see why some use them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Wheeler Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 If you are concerned about fan type for spray booths, you should look at this page. http://www.cincinnatifan.com/explosion-proof-fan.htm Notice that there is no such thing as an explosion proof fan. Notice that spark/explosion resistant fans are made that way by using non-ferrous materials, not by special motor type. If you move enough air to keep vapors below the lower explosion limit, (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flammability_limit ) sparks will not cause an explosion. If you don't stay below this limit, then a static electric spark from unrolling a piece of Scotch tape or a spark from throwing a light switch could set off an explosion. Always have the fan running before you begin to spray. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTMust Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I've had so much fun (and learned a lot) reading and following this thread, that I'll be sad to see it end! In some ways I have a much clearer picture of what I should do to be perfectly safe... or do I? Reading between everyone's lines, I doubt there is such a thing as perfectly safe... but maybe that's life anyway. One thing's for sure, I won't be using a vacuum cleaner and I do take the cautions about electrical sparks and spray fumes seriously, as everyone should! But one thing still eludes me. I have no basement in my house and my windows all have fixed screens on the outside..... that will be a great concern to my wife if they get even slightly discolored by trying to escape the paint fumes(?) through them and I'm not about to start cutting 4" diameter holes though my walls for an extra dryer vent. Oh well.... I guess I'm going to brave these Canadian winters still, and take my spray cans and models ouside and blow the fumes into my neighbour's yard. God help the environment! (I know this is a serious subject, so please don't think I'm being flippant. Thanks for getting it started, Virgil!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pharr7226 Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 But one thing still eludes me. I have no basement in my house and my windows all have fixed screens on the outside..... that will be a great concern to my wife if they get even slightly discolored by trying to escape the paint fumes(?) through them and I'm not about to start cutting 4" diameter holes though my walls for an extra dryer vent. Just hit the screen with some flat black paint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctowe86 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I loved this made me laugh Sometimes you gotta use what you have Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbluesd Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 I didn't read every post on this thread, so somebody may have beat me to it, but here is a contribution: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000O8D0IC/ref=wms_ohs_product?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Ignition protected, 235 CFM and only $30 each. My custom built booth runs two of them powered by a PC power supply that is housed underneath the booth. Not exactly quiet but I have no concerns about melting my skin off if I get too heavy with the fumes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbiggied Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) I am going to take the middle road here. You CAN do it on a budget, BUT PLEASE DO IT RIGHT. Even if you think you are safe from explosion, you MUST maintain a minimum air flow to properly exhaust the fumes or you will end up with lacquer in your lungs. Multiply the width and height of your booth's front opening, and then multiply that by 100. That is the minimum cfm your fan should have. for example, if your booth opening is 2ft by 2ft, then 2x2x100 = 400. If your fan is rated for anything less than 400cfm, you are NOT moving enough air. Another thing I don't think I saw mentioned here...you must have a source of fresh air. The air that your fan blows out the window has to come from somewhere. If you have gas/oil/wood fired heat, that air can get pulled from your heating system...hello carbon monoxide! Even if you have electric heat, if your house is properly sealed up, there's no where for the replacement air to come from, and your cfm will drop. BUT...you can have your cake and eat it too...you just have to put in some effort... For my booth, I have an insulated board mounted permanently in my window with two air doors actuated by push rods...one for exhaust air and one for intake air. My blower is mounted directly to the board blowing straight out of the exhaust door. My modeling desk has a hole cut in the top surface lined up over the blower and sealed to it with some rings of wood and some weatherstripping. All I have to do to paint is remove the piece that covers the hole in my desk, drop in an air filter, stand up a temporary three sided shield + top on my desk, pop open both air doors and turn on the blower. I got lucky and got a 400 cfm squirrel cage blower at a thrift store for $8...check craig's list, yard sales, classifieds, ebay...I can almost guarantee you'll find a used one for $25 or less if you look hard enough. The push rods for the air doors are music wire run through nylon tubes...hobby shop...$7 total Everything else (mounting board, air doors, insulation, hardware) all came from scrap wood, materials, and various bits of hardware I scrounged up from my and my dad's house My point is that you CAN build a booth that will be safe and healthy WITHOUT spending a ton of money. You just have to have the will to make it work. Edited March 28, 2014 by dbiggied Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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