Brand New 65 Mustangs

[sjordan2]

Original or not? You guys should see the posts at the Antique Automobile Club of America (aaca.org) or bugattibuilder.com to see how passionate these guys get about what's valid and what's not. We're talking about millionaires getting nastier than we do.

[Junkman]

Interesting. The same discussion we had in Europe about 10-15 years go, when they started making replacement shells for the Citroen DS and 2CV.

In the Nineties, when there was the fist rush on Ford Escort MK1 RS 2000s, and MK1 Capri 2600 RS's, we used remaining original factory spare bodies. 'Re-shelling' was never considered illegal, or the car not being original afterwards.

Once factory replacement shells dried up, we used Escort shells from 'lesser' variants and fitted RS2000 front clips to them (actually the only real difference, body-wise). We then stamped them with the chassis number of the 'original' car we had the paperwork from. Albeit this was completely legal, and 'officially' the cars could have been sold as originals, we felt we did alter the originality by doing so much surgery and advertised and sold the cars accordingly. Interesting, this did surprisingly little for value loss in the eye of the buyers, since they didn't view them as clones.

From lots of full restorations I have carried out since then, I can tell you that 15k US is a bargain for a body in new car quality, no matter how you look at it and which car it is.

I think it is OK, as long as you tell people what you were doing.

Edited October 29, 2011 by Junkman

[Guest Johnny]

Just to muddy the waters further- there are places that will make you a reproduction VIN tag. Theoretically, if you had nothing more than a clean title with a good VIN, you could make a brand-new 19XX fill-in-the-blank appear out of thin air. (Giant stack of cash would help, though.) And people do swap VIN tags all the time, even though I'm about 90% sure that's illegal under most circumstances.

Definitely illegal to reproduce VIN tags! Also to move one. But as in my last post as long as it stays attached to original sheet metal and donor sheet metal added to it it is legal!

I do remember a body shop at a dealer replacing truck cabs and just moving vin tags to the new (from GM ) cab! But then they could replace it with the correct rivets!

[Chuck Most]

Anyone remember when Brookville began reproducing Model A bodies in steel? They entered a car restored with one of their bodies in a concours-type event, and the car won its class. A panel of judges could not distinguish between the orginal Henry steel and the minty-fresh Brookville components. After the car won, it was revealed to have the Brookville body, and boy did the purists ever raise a godawful stink, even though not even the experts spotted the fact it had an aftermarket replacement body during the entire show or scoring process. I guess I just don't get it.

Edited October 29, 2011 by Chuck Most

[Chuck Most]

Definitely illegal to reproduce VIN tags! Also to move one. But as in my last post as long as it stays attached to original sheet metal and donor sheet metal added to it it is legal!

I do remember a body shop at a dealer replacing truck cabs and just moving vin tags to the new (from GM ) cab! But then they could replace it with the correct rivets!

That's what I thought. That's why you'll never see an ad in a magazine for repop VIN tags! I remember reading somewhere when Shelby had a few leftover '69 cars, they re-tagged them as '70's, and the FBI was called in to supervise the process. I believe Dodge did the same thing in the mid '60's with leftover trucks (even though I seem to remember Dodge did not employ the traditional 'model year' system on trucks until the very late '60's).

[Skydime]

I think a sweet looking ride is just that...a sweet looking ride. And if there is a story about how someone's grandpa bought it new in 19xx and it's been in the family ever since , or whatever, just makes it that much sweeter.

As far as replacing a crushed cab on an otherwise perfect vehicle, I think most states have proper guidelines to see that this is done legally and legitimately. As I said, no matter what there is in life, there is always going to be some jerk screw it up for everyone. Then again, if they didn't, we wouldn't have had the original Gone in 60 Seconds for our viewing pleasure.

Edited October 29, 2011 by Skydime

[Craig Irwin]

This is my great grandfathers axe, pasted down through the family . He replaced the handle a couple of times, and we replaced the head and put it on a new handle when we restored it.

If it ain't factory paint it ain't original.

[Nick Notarangelo]

You know,I'm ok with this.

I know I can buy the Mustang or Bel Air I want and build it the way I want without someones handy down problems and I can do it right the first time.

Yes It's not old metal but if GM and Ford are ok with this and they admit the metal is better than what they used way back when with safer welds,then to me it's really a non issue.

Hmmmmmmmm a Black Belair with Crager rims and a nice new crate 350 with red and white seats.

[Dragline]

I had a chance to look at the 68 Stang from Dynacorn up close. Well done in every respect.

Dave, your fears seem puzzling. I have yet to hear of anyone duping someone into buying the 68,69, or the camaro yet. There are ways to tell them apart and they come with new VIN's.

Not saying it cannot be done, by why bother?

Bob

[Harry P.]

Anyone remember when Brookville began reproducing Model A bodies in steel? They entered a car restored with one of their bodies in a concours-type event, and the car won its class. A panel of judges could not distinguish between the orginal Henry steel and the minty-fresh Brookville components. After the car won, it was revealed to have the Brookville body, and boy did the purists ever raise a godawful stink, even though not even the experts spotted the fact it had an aftermarket replacement body during the entire show or scoring process. I guess I just don't get it.

It's all about trying to pass off new as original.

To a car collector, originality is everything. To pass off something new (a newly manufactured reproduction Model A body) as being "original," that is... the same body shell that Ford put on it back on the day the car was first manufactured, is unethical. So is swapping or recreating VIN tags. It's all about intent to deceive.

[Junkman]

To a car collector, originality is everything.

This is the wishful thinking of self-declared 'car collectors' wearing pink sunglasses.

Show me a thing that's original on a car shown and winning a trophy at Pebble Beach.

Theseus' Paradox is thousands of years old, yet it will never cease to amaze people.

Interestingly, exactly restored automobiles are a prime example for discussing this paradox in modern philosophy.

Edited October 29, 2011 by Junkman

[Junkman]

because some people see it as a way to profit and now at an easier and more cost efficient expense.

say a guy knows where there is a '69 Z/28 body, rotten to the roof but with a saveable VIN still on the firewall. he's also got a lead on an original DZ block and cross ram intake. he swipes the VIN from the junker and builds a "new" Camaro using a Dynacorn body and a parts donor car, essentially builds a brand new car around a VIN. when it's done it's offered for sale as a legit Z/28 restoration but the car never was, it's just a random pile of parts that are being represented as something they never were or were but never as a part of "that" car. that restored and legit Z/28 never left the factory as such, it was built this year. easily 85% of your Z/28 never was one originally

how would you feel as the purchaser and new owner of that Z/28 when information comes forward about that rusty shell and that the Z/28 that you just bought was totalled back in the 70's and written off by some insurance company then?

how would you feel after dropping six figures for the Mickey Thompson Thunderbolt only to find out that what you just bought had been a garden variety Fairlane most of it's life until someone rebodied it as the famous Thunderbolt racecar using pieces of the original?

how would you feel if you sent your grandfathers Lemans that had been handed down to you to a restoration shop and they rebodied it and didn't tell you. so now the restored car sitting out in your garage aint the same one that grandpa had bought new and kept in the family?

You just described the overwhelming majority of all restored cars. The only thing you didn't mention yet is that usually the parts of several donor cars go into one restoration, not just one.

[Chuck Most]

Dave- Regarding that Lemans- by 'rebodied' do you mean the body shell was replaced (but many other pieces of Grandpa's old Poncho were reused on the replacement body), or the vin off Grandpa's Lemans was switched with a car with a better body, meaning it is a completely different car? If the former were the case it wouldn't irk me too much, especially if the car was pretty far gone to begin with.

[Chuck Most]

Theseus' Paradox is thousands of years old, yet it will never cease to amaze people.

Speaking of- chew on this- none of the cells in your body are the same ones you had ten years ago- they've all died off and been regenerated since then. Are you the same person you were ten years ago, considering every cell in your body has regenerated since then?

[Kaleb]

Just my two cents, if I had the option to spending a few grand more in a straight clean body I would buy one of these. Other than finding(if you can) body panels for an entire car depending on the condition of the car itself. How much body work would you have to do? How much time would it eat up getting it shimmed just right? Yes it takes a lot of fun out of building a car, assuming you already have a car to work with. Now majority and probable 100 percent of us will not buy this car. So why keep arguing on if a car is original or not.

O and if you want originality in this car...They swap the Vin numbers...the car is not original to the Vin number. That blows the whole thing out of proportion.

[Guest Johnny]

That's what I thought. That's why you'll never see an ad in a magazine for repop VIN tags! I remember reading somewhere when Shelby had a few leftover '69 cars, they re-tagged them as '70's, and the FBI was called in to supervise the process. I believe Dodge did the same thing in the mid '60's with leftover trucks (even though I seem to remember Dodge did not employ the traditional 'model year' system on trucks until the very late '60's).

Ford on their trucks through the 60's and early 70's would make only minor changes in trim between model years! They would not issue a title until the truck sold. My uncle worked at a Ford dealer and when they had trucks left over they just took them into the body shop and updated the trucks to the new model year! This also included changing vin tags to get the proper date codes!

I was told only the big high volume dealers did this which would explain them collecting the last year model trucks from the surrounding small dealerships!(helped pick up some of these trucks when I first got my drivers license)

[Guest Johnny]

This is my great grandfathers axe, pasted down through the family . He replaced the handle a couple of times, and we replaced the head and put it on a new handle when we restored it.

If it ain't factory paint it ain't original.

That is why some guys are into "survivor" cars rather than restored cars!

[Chuck Most]

International didn't even bother with using the model year system until 1972, and they made changes continually throughout the calendar year up to then.Before that, the trucks were titled in whatever year they were sold, whether that was the calendar year or model year. The laws varied from state to state, but if you bought a Loadstar in '66, but that Loadstar had been sitting on the dealer's lot since late '64, it was titled as a '66.

[Junkman]

Speaking of- chew on this- none of the cells in your body are the same ones you had ten years ago- they've all died off and been regenerated since then. Are you the same person you were ten years ago, considering every cell in your body has regenerated since then?

Oh Chuck, I'm hardly ever the same person at any given time. May I introcude myselves?

[Swifster]

because some people see it as a way to profit and now at an easier and more cost efficient expense.

say a guy knows where there is a '69 Z/28 body, rotten to the roof but with a saveable VIN still on the firewall. he's also got a lead on an original DZ block and cross ram intake. he swipes the VIN from the junker and builds a "new" Camaro using a Dynacorn body and a parts donor car, essentially builds a brand new car around a VIN. when it's done it's offered for sale as a legit Z/28 restoration but the car never was, it's just a random pile of parts that are being represented as something they never were or were but never as a part of "that" car. that restored and legit Z/28 never left the factory as such, it was built this year. easily 85% of your Z/28 never was one originally

how would you feel as the purchaser and new owner of that Z/28 when information comes forward about that rusty shell and that the Z/28 that you just bought was totalled back in the 70's and written off by some insurance company then?

how would you feel after dropping six figures for the Mickey Thompson Thunderbolt only to find out that what you just bought had been a garden variety Fairlane most of it's life until someone rebodied it as the famous Thunderbolt racecar using pieces of the original?

how would you feel if you sent your grandfathers Lemans that had been handed down to you to a restoration shop and they rebodied it and didn't tell you. so now the restored car sitting out in your garage aint the same one that grandpa had bought new and kept in the family?

You're looking at this as... OMG!!! But how many Duesenburg's were put together from a pile of parts? How many cars have been restored from a pile of parts? In your example, it was made easier by having a completely new body shell. I see no difference. I could make a clone Z-28 from a standard Camaro sport coupe. There are no Camaro VIN's from 1969 that list the engine. Even the data tage doesn't list the engine. Having a new shell vs an old shell means nothing.

In your LeMans example, who would spend $16,000 to rebody a LeMans. It would be more than the value of the car. But make it a GTO Judge and the reason to do so changes. There are only so many serial numbers and data plates that will make that LeMans a GTO. Do you know how many Hemi 'Cuda clones there are. And even the clones are worth over $100,000. But there are only 10 VINs that show a Hemi 'Cuda convertible. You make a Hemi car from a slant six car, but that serial number will still show the engine code.

[Swifster]

Ford on their trucks through the 60's and early 70's would make only minor changes in trim between model years! They would not issue a title until the truck sold. My uncle worked at a Ford dealer and when they had trucks left over they just took them into the body shop and updated the trucks to the new model year! This also included changing vin tags to get the proper date codes!

I was told only the big high volume dealers did this which would explain them collecting the last year model trucks from the surrounding small dealerships!(helped pick up some of these trucks when I first got my drivers license)

THIS is illegal. It is an attempt to defraud.

Now some states titled a vehicle pending the sale date. In otherwords, you could have a '63 Galaxie on the lot that for whatever reason didn't sell until February of '64 and it's titled as a '64. Or more common, a '65 Mustang sold in May of '64 titled as a '64 (and there were no '64-1/2 Mustangs) even though it was listed on the VIN as a '65.

[Craig Irwin]

Weren't the VIN tags on a 65 Mustang on the left DOOR?

[Swifster]

International didn't even bother with using the model year system until 1972, and they made changes continually throughout the calendar year up to then.Before that, the trucks were titled in whatever year they were sold, whether that was the calendar year or model year. The laws varied from state to state, but if you bought a Loadstar in '66, but that Loadstar had been sitting on the dealer's lot since late '64, it was titled as a '66.

Chuck, there are IH guys who have breakdowns by VIN of the build date. This can usually be narrowed down to the month of build. State laws varied by state so anything is possible depending where the truck was sold. Some states used the serial number and others the engine number. The thing is, if a '64 Loadster serial number shows the truck as a '64 built in January of '64, it's still a '64. Now if the state titled vehicles by when the truck sold (and I've seen this on other cars), it's still a '64 titled as a '66. This info is available on the internet for just about anything that's been made. I had to hunt down the serial number info for a '40 Hudson convertible I was looking at.

[Swifster]

Weren't the VIN tags on a 65 Mustang on the left DOOR?

Nope. That is the build or data plate. While the serial number is stamped on it, that's not the 'money' shot. The serial number was literally stamped to the left side apron. Many times during collision repairs, these were cut off and never restamped. I doubt they body shop was worried about collectability in the mid to late 60's.

And by the way, if the car was a Shelby, that Shelby serial number plate was riveted over the top of the factory Ford number on the apron.

Edited October 29, 2011 by Swifster

[Junkman]

THIS is illegal. It is an attempt to defraud.

Now some states titled a vehicle pending the sale date. In otherwords, you could have a '63 Galaxie on the lot that for whatever reason didn't sell until February of '64 and it's titled as a '64. Or more common, a '65 Mustang sold in May of '64 titled as a '64 (and there were no '64-1/2 Mustangs) even though it was listed on the VIN as a '65.

Interestingly this was always common practice with cars in Europe. The date of the first registration counts, no matter whether it was a leftover from last year or not. This sometimes led to lawsuits when buyers found out that their new car was already almost a year old by the time it got registered and thus they passed a law that says a car can be registered and sold as a new car up to one year after it left the factory.

I guess it doesn't matter that much anyway when you don't have annual model changes. But it happened with cars that were replaced with new models, too. I once had a 1986 registered Ford (of Germany) Granada. The model was built 1979-1985, my particular example in 1985. More than once I got pulled over because the fuzz thought it's a stolen number plate.

When you buy spares for European cars, you always need to go by the VIN, not the registration date.

Edited October 30, 2011 by Junkman