Brand New 65 Mustangs

[jeffs396]

There are no Camaro VIN's from 1969 that list the engine. Even the data tage doesn't list the engine. Having a new shell vs an old shell means nothing.

You make a Hemi car from a slant six car, but that serial number will still show the engine code.

Tom, you are contradicting yourself here...there ARE numbers within the VIN that are also within the engine stampings, that's how you can verify if the engine is original to the car. Unless someone has gotten into the really dishonest "restamping" thing

With GM cars, the "protect-o-plate" is a vital part of original cars documentation. I have an all original 1968 Impala convertible (see my sig) with all of it's original paperwork including sales invoice, window sticker, protect-o-plate, etc. My Dad bought it new!

[Chuck Most]

Chuck, there are IH guys who have breakdowns by VIN of the build date. This can usually be narrowed down to the month of build. State laws varied by state so anything is possible depending where the truck was sold. Some states used the serial number and others the engine number. The thing is, if a '64 Loadster serial number shows the truck as a '64 built in January of '64, it's still a '64. Now if the state titled vehicles by when the truck sold (and I've seen this on other cars), it's still a '64 titled as a '66. This info is available on the internet for just about anything that's been made. I had to hunt down the serial number info for a '40 Hudson convertible I was looking at.

Absolutely right- my neigbor Bill is one of those guys. And I have seen the 'built one year/titled as year sold' quite a few times with IH trucks. But I have seen a few instances where an IH truck's serial numbers disagree with the year on the title- Bill's old '66 was always titled as a '66, sold new in the early summer of 1966, but the serial numbers said it was built in early '65- March/April. It even had the '65 'model year' eggcrate grille and not the '66 style vertical bar grille from the factory, though Bill later changed the grille to a '66 so his Binder buddies would quit harrassing him about the disagreement between the year and the grille. More an exception than the rule, but it did happen that way a few times.

Now don't get me started on his '63, which was built in and titled as a '63, but has had at least two different cabs put on it since he got it in 1977, and it is now titled as the '63 that donated the second cab (third altogether) and not the '63 he started with, even though the drivetrain, chassis, and bed are all from the 'original' '63...

[Junkman]

There is something else that puzzles me.

If I'd import one of those 196X Mustang replacement bodies, and they have a new VIN, i.e. I could not use the VIN and paperwork of a 196X donor car, I would have to register it as a new car. This is impossible, since it would then have to meet current emissions, passive restraint, lighting, etc. specifications. Possibly even an NCAP crash test, if I plan to sell the finished car.

How does this work in America?

Edited October 30, 2011 by Junkman

[Chuck Most]

When you buy spares for European cars, you always need to go by the VIN, not the registration date.

Same way with those International trucks I love so much. My neighbor told me "If you ever get an IH truck, especially a pre '72, go by the build date, not the registration date." He says he caught onto that pretty early on when he started restoring them in the late '70's.

[Chuck Most]

Christian - it varies state to state, even though there are a few Federal guidelines. Michigan does have something called an 'Assembled Vehicle' title process-

http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,1607,7-127-1585_1587_1588-25476--,00.html

[Art Anderson]

Dave, everything on a car is a service item. Frames, body shells and driveline parts can all be swapped out. I work in insurance claims. Why would I buy a rusted out used body on a roll over and rebuild that when I could get a new shell without the issues? I personally don't see the problem. There are more '32 Ford roadsters on the road now than Henry ever made.

Also, prior to January 1 1955, almost universally, cars were ID'd and titled by their engine number, NOT the frame or body number. Now, try to get THAT one past your local license branch today (especially if your collector car has had an engine transplant!

Someone has already mentioned Duesenbergs: Certainly starting with the 1929 Duesenberg Model J, they were identified by both engine number (starting with the letter J), AND the Frame number, which was not stamped into the frame, but rather lettered on by hand in white paint!

Model A Fords had engine numbers beginning with the letter A stamped into a flat rectangle on the left side of the engine block, and a frame number stamped into the top flange right under the front right body mount, where it could never be seen, and often rust pitted into oblivion.

Art

[Junkman]

Christian - it varies state to state, even though there are a few Federal guidelines. Michigan does have something called an 'Assembled Vehicle' title process-

http://www.michigan....25476--,00.html

Ununited States, huh?

But if this was built using a new shell with a new VIN, wouldn't it have to meet current federal specifications?

And even if the car can be registered in -say- Michigan, could you sell it on to -say- California, without the new owner there running into trouble?

[Swifster]

Tom, you are contradicting yourself here...there ARE numbers within the VIN that are also within the engine stampings, that's how you can verify if the engine is original to the car. Unless someone has gotten into the really dishonest "restamping" thing

With GM cars, the "protect-o-plate" is a vital part of original cars documentation. I have an all original 1968 Impala convertible (see my sig) with all of it's original paperwork including sales invoice, window sticker, protect-o-plate, etc. My Dad bought it new!

Jeff, I restored a '71 Plymouth Sport Fury GT. 1 of 371. When I got the car, it had a '68 383 in it. My car went down the line on May 30th, 1971. I found the correct 440 HP (370HP) block and had the original serial number (I think it was from a Charger) machined off and left the serial number pad blank. This was how Chrysler did their warranty blocks. If a car made it all the way down the assembly line and didn't start, in went the warranty engine. I could have had the block restamped with the VIN from that car, but didn't. But who's to say it wasn't original? Don't get me wrong, I never lied about the build. And a complete build book (including my pictures ) went with it.

In the late 60's, there is nothing in the VIN saying what engine came with the car. The Z-28 was an optional package (and actually the RPO code). It did tell you if the car had a 6 cylinder or a V8. No more. If the block had the VIN stamped on it, it could have been machined off and restamped, similar to what I did with the Plymouth. Or at least leaving the block blank.

There isn't much to a GM serial number in 1969... 124379Nxxxxxx

1 = Chevrolet

2437 = Camaro Sport Coupe with V8

9 = 1969

N = Norwood, OH Assembly Plant

100001 = Sequential Assembly Number

Nothing in that VIN lists the engine as a 302, 327, 350, 396 or 427. The third digit (4) is a V8 with an even number. There are some codes on the build plate (cowl tag) that are needed to make a case for a Z-28. If you find the broadcast sheet under the seats, it will list every option on the car. In many cars, these are long gone. A 302 DZ block only came in a Z-28. But if you need an engine, who says you can't find one? There is no real way to confirm a '69 Z-28 without the broadcast sheet. And if you are going to clone one, is it better to start with a rusty shell or a new one?

[Chuck Most]

As far as meeting current federal specs, no. Some companies do sell 'new' versions of old cars, and you won't find airbags, crash beams, or current emissions pieces on them, IF your 'assembled' car is titled as, say, a 1972 as opposed to 2012. Again, it varies from state to state, if you title your 'new' Mustang body shell as 1967, it is a 1967 model in the eyes of the law.

I don't even want to think of California's laws (seems like they view anyone who modifies a car as the spawn of Satan over there, even though many argue hot rodding was born there), but I've never heard of anyone having issues with selling an assembled car in another state, as long as the title was obtained in a legit manner.

[Chuck Most]

AMC's VIN system was pretty good though. They had a code for what transmission the car had (and whether it was column or floor shifted), what engine it had (displacement and carb type), and what model- a useful point of reference to tell if that second-gen AMX you are looking at was actually 'born' as a Javelin.

[Swifster]

There is something else that puzzles me.

If I'd import one of those 196X Mustang replacement bodies, and they have a new VIN, i.e. I could not use the VIN and paperwork of a 196X donor car, I would have to register it as a new car. This is impossible, since it would then have to meet current emissions, passive restraint, lighting, etc. specifications. Possibly even an NCAP crash test, if I plan to sell the finished car.

How does this work in America?

Christian, new body shells (especially with kit cars, i.e., see Cobras) come with a 'Statement of Origian'. It's like a serial number from the maker. I'm not positive, but I'd like to think Dynacorn sends a SoO with the body. That doesn't mean you have to use it. That's so they can issue their own serial number for a home built car. A person in their garage isn't considered a manufacturer and is usually exempt from emission and crash rules. The emissions may vary in Hippy states like California. The real issue isn't necessarily an emissions issue. it's a tax issue.

This is why guys buy a parts car ($500 plus 7% sales tax) and then mail order a body shell from California ($15K and no sales tax). This is where the states lose money and get pissy. Now you order all the parts you want via mail order and you've paid $35 in sales tax on a car that cost you $50K to finish. This is how Boyd Coddington got in trouble in CA.

As for emissions, that's easy. Use a newer engine. You can by brand new 302/5.0L fuel enjected crate engines directly from Ford. GM sells new LS3 as a complete plug in and drive crate engine. Chrysler does something similar with the 392 small block Hemi.

Edited October 30, 2011 by Swifster

[jeffs396]

In the late 60's, there is nothing in the VIN saying what engine came with the car. The Z-28 was an optional package (and actually the RPO code). It did tell you if the car had a 6 cylinder or a V8. No more. If the block had the VIN stamped on it, it could have been machined off and restamped, similar to what I did with the Plymouth. Or at least leaving the block blank.

There isn't much to a GM serial number in 1969... 124379Nxxxxxx

1 = Chevrolet

2437 = Camaro Sport Coupe with V8

9 = 1969

N = Norwood, OH Assembly Plant

100001 = Sequential Assembly Number

Nothing in that VIN lists the engine as a 302, 327, 350, 396 or 427. The third digit (4) is a V8 with an even number. There are some codes on the build plate (cowl tag) that are needed to make a case for a Z-28. If you find the broadcast sheet under the seats, it will list every option on the car. In many cars, these are long gone. A 302 DZ block only came in a Z-28. But if you need an engine, who says you can't find one? There is no real way to confirm a '69 Z-28 without the broadcast sheet. And if you are going to clone one, is it better to start with a rusty shell or a new one?

Tom, I'm not sure how the other OEMs did their numbering, but I do know how GM did it in the late sixties, see here:

http://www.yearone.com/yodnn/tech/VehicleInfoDecoding/ChevroletDecoding/ChevroletEngineCodes/tabid/322/Default.aspx

Here's an excerpt:

If the engine in your car has a sequence number that doesn't match the last six digits of the V.I.N., it is almost certainly not original. These cars were mass produced, however, and mistakes did happen on rare occasions.

This at least tells you if the engine is original to the car...then the decoding continues...

[Swifster]

Model A Fords had engine numbers beginning with the letter A stamped into a flat rectangle on the left side of the engine block, and a frame number stamped into the top flange right under the front right body mount, where it could never be seen, and often rust pitted into oblivion.

Art

Art, Ford actually stamped the serial number on the engine begining with the Model T. Ford staarted stamping the engine number on the frame rails starting in 1925 or 1926. Begining with the A, the number was stamped in three places along the left frame rail along with the engine. Ford did this well into the 1940's. I love an 'assembled' '32 Ford roadster built from the ground up with nothing from Ford with an aftermarket frame, a Chevy small block and a fiberglass body. 'Sir, where do you have the serial number at?' And the guy looks like a deer in the headlights. 'Well, it's on my registration'... Where is it on the car? A lot of fun with those.

[Swifster]

But if this was built using a new shell with a new VIN, wouldn't it have to meet current federal specifications?

And even if the car can be registered in -say- Michigan, could you sell it on to -say- California, without the new owner there running into trouble?

Hippyland kind of has to honor another states title. But because certain states are operating as a title laundering business (errr, Alabama), there are a couple that have to go thru the full inspection. I'm sure California is a great place to live, but their rules governing hot rods and vintage cars sucks. Again, it's more about taxes.

[Swifster]

AMC's VIN system was pretty good though. They had a code for what transmission the car had (and whether it was column or floor shifted), what engine it had (displacement and carb type), and what model- a useful point of reference to tell if that second-gen AMX you are looking at was actually 'born' as a Javelin.

This is true, but no one is making body shells for a Javelin or an AMX. Most cars can be documented. Like a Marty report for Fords, data plates on a Mopar, etc. Let's be realistic though. How many are really trying to spend big bucks to make a clone. There are only so many DZ blocks out there. If it's me, I'd rather build it the way I want it. I new LS3 crate motor with 430HP, a 6-speed and dressed up as an SS. A real Z-28 isn't that hard to find for 'reasonable' money.

[Swifster]

Tom, I'm not sure how the other OEMs did their numbering, but I do know how GM did it in the late sixties, see here:

http://www.yearone.c...22/Default.aspx

Here's an excerpt:

If the engine in your car has a sequence number that doesn't match the last six digits of the V.I.N., it is almost certainly not original. These cars were mass produced, however, and mistakes did happen on rare occasions.

This at least tells you if the engine is original to the car...then the decoding continues...

Jeff, you're looking at casting numbers. These weren't stamped sequentially. If you know the codes for a '66 L-79 (327/350HP) that came out of a Nova SS, you look for the right casting numbers. There was only one block code for a Z-28 (DZ). These codes changed by the car (Nova, Chevelle, Camaro, Corvette, etc.). My book lists these codes. A friend of mine has two ZG blocks for the above engine. I could build one from scratch and then play with the stamping if I wanted to match THAT car.

All other cars have casting number is various forms, even my Studebaker. You start with the block and build an engine from there. Most of this 'matching numbers' stuff comes from the Corvette guys, and to a lesser extent, the Mopar guys with Hemis. I asked about this with the Studebaker guys and was made fun of for a month. Engines were stamped by the day it was made. That's it. No serial number stamping or anything else. And this was in 1964. The only thing you want is a JT or JTS block (Jet Thrust R1, R2 or R3 engines).

So if you'll spend $15K on a new '69 Camaro shell, you have the money to make the block match the car if you really want to. I could have done that with the Plymouth and didn't. The engines were made somewhere other than Norwood. They were built it most cases, a month or two before the car was. The engine was stamped at the plant once received and assigned to a car.

Edited October 30, 2011 by Swifster

[Chuck Most]

This is true, but no one is making body shells for a Javelin or an AMX. Most cars can be documented. Like a Marty report for Fords, data plates on a Mopar, etc. Let's be realistic though. How many are really trying to spend big bucks to make a clone. There are only so many DZ blocks out there. If it's me, I'd rather build it the way I want it. I new LS3 crate motor with 430HP, a 6-speed and dressed up as an SS. A real Z-28 isn't that hard to find for 'reasonable' money.

But a few guys have tried passing off modified Javelins as AMX. Not something that happens every day- there really isn't much of an AMC muscle car market.

Regarding your other statement- these days, not too many. Musclecars trade hands for big bucks still, but I think the days of six-or-seven figure Hemi cars is pretty much a product of the past. The amount you'd have sunk into a clone with a new body probably wouldn't be worth the effort in today's market.

[sjordan2]

Reminds me of Woody Allen's "Sleeper," where scientists try to clone a dead dictator using only his nose.

[Swifster]

Did I mention I'm an insurance appraiser for insurance claims for Hagerty and Grundy (vintage cars). I go and look at the damage when the cars are damaged. The last three cars I had to look at were a 1940 Hudson Deluxe Six convertible, a 1956 Ford F-100 and a 1976 Mercedes Benz 450SL. I get a lot of Camaros, Chevelles and Corvettes. I also see a lot of Mustangs.

[Swifster]

But a few guys have tried passing off modified Javelins as AMX. Not something that happens every day- there really isn't much of an AMC muscle car market.

Regarding your other statement- these days, not too many. Musclecars trade hands for big bucks still, but I think the days of six-or-seven figure Hemi cars is pretty much a product of the past. The amount you'd have sunk into a clone with a new body probably wouldn't be worth the effort in today's market.

Really? Is there some kind of Black Market for '71-'74 AMX's that I'm not aware of? Hell, I'd love a '68-'69 Javelin to play with. The bad part is even the nicest of early AMX's doesn't bring big money. AMC's are like Studebakers. You by the car because you like being different, not to get rich. The only Studebaker I saw make big money at Barrett-Jackson was a '58 Golden Hawk 400 with the leather interior that went around $80K. Other than that car, I can't remember one that went more than $50K.

[Chuck Most]

Really? Is there some kind of Black Market for '71-'74 AMX's that I'm not aware of? Hell, I'd love a '68-'69 Javelin to play with. The bad part is even the nicest of early AMX's doesn't bring big money. AMC's are like Studebakers. You by the car because you like being different, not to get rich. The only Studebaker I saw make big money at Barrett-Jackson was a '58 Golden Hawk 400 with the leather interior that went around $80K. Other than that car, I can't remember one that went more than $50K.

Evidently, some guy somewhere thought 'cloning' an AMX was worth it. I'd even pay 'good money' for a nice one, just because it isn't a Camaro or Mustang. Even good money for an AMX would be peanuts compared to a Camaro or Mustang Sportsroof. Actually, I see that as an advantage.

[bandit1]

actually if i may say here guys that these "ALL NEW" camaro's/ bel air's/ 'rustangs (im a chev guy can't you tell? ) chev trucks, etc.... ? if there illegal then why are you able to build a complete car/ truck out of a catalog? and why are they building them on tv shows?

examples.... Chop Cut Rebuild

1953 chevy pickup

and MuscleCar tv's very own ... CRATE CAMARO!

http://www.powerblocktv.com/site3/index.php/musclecar-episodes?ep_num=mc2008-02&ep_sea=0801

[jeffs396]

The engine ID number is stamped on this machined pad at the front (passenger side) of the engine. This code was stamped by the engine assembly plant. This particular stamping decodes as follows: V = Flint Engine Plant; 05 = May; 25 = 25th day of the month; C = Car; NR = 350 cid/300 hp (w/TH-350 tranny) for use in a '70 full-size passenger car. Note the lack of an engine V.I.N. number on this block – which means this particular engine was not installed in a chassis on the assembly line.

WHAT DO THEY MEAN? Simply put, the proper numbers can mean the difference between a solid investment and losing your shirt! Actually, in the present-day restoration marketplace a premium is placed on muscle cars equipped with their original drivetrains. This doesn't mean a 396 Nova missing the original engine is worthless – far from it – but all else being equal the car with the original engine will be worth more. If you plan on entering your car in concours classes at shows, the correct components are necessary if you hope to place well.

Notice there's a difference in the meaning of original and correct. Original means the car has the engine or drivetrain parts installed by the factory when the car was built. Correct means the various components (i.e. engine code, head castings, etc.) are the proper type for that particular model. It's not usually possible to determine if the heads or intake installed on a particular engine are the originals simply because they weren't serialized by Chevrolet. However, the date codes of these parts should precede the build date of the car by 1-3 months. This isn't an exact science, however, and some exceptions do exist.

Since the cylinder block is serialized it's possible to determine whether the engine (or the block, anyway) was installed on the assembly line. The engine code should match the codes used in a particular application, and the sequence number should match the last six digits of the car's V.I.N. Should is the key word in the above statement however, since there are rare cases where an engine can be considered original and not have a matching sequence number.

There have been instances where engines were replaced under warranty, and although the technicians were instructed to stamp the sequence number into the replacement block, this did not always happen.

Engines with complete assembly plant and ID codes, but no sequence numbers, are the result. If the engine in your car has a sequence number that doesn't match the last six digits of the V.I.N., it is almost certainly not original. These cars were mass produced, however, and mistakes did happen on rare occasions.

This big block does have the engine V.I.N. code stamped to the right of the engine ID number. This code was added at the final vehicle assembly plant.

Since the engine codes were stamped on a pad that is an extension of the deck surface, it is possible to remove the codes and identification numbers. This may happen during a normal rebuilding procedure (if a block is decked), or it can be purposely done by unscrupulous persons trying to pass off an unoriginal or incorrect block/engine to an unsuspecting buyer. That's why it's extremely important that all the pieces of the identification puzzle match. The engine codes and sequence numbers should match, the various casting numbers should be correct and the component date codes must precede the build date of the car (but not by more than a few months). If all these match, it's a pretty safe bet the engine is original. If any one of these is incorrect, the authenticity of the car can be seriously challenged.

NOT casting numbers Tom, STAMPED numbers, I know the difference

Edited October 30, 2011 by jeffs396

[Swifster]

NOT casting numbers Tom, STAMPED numbers, I know the difference

Jeff, let's say I want to deck the block. The machinist cut's some material from the deck. If it's deep enough, these numbers are no longer there. Or maybe I fill those numbers in with weld and remachine it flat. The numbers are gone. Then my machinist stamps the same plant codes and the correct serial number. Like I've said, I've been down that route with those types of numbers. Top it off that once the heads are on, you're covering the numbers with paint.

The casting numbers on the back of the block are also important. If that was going into your Impala, you also want to make sure THOSE numbers are correct. Far easier to screw with stamped numbers than with casting numbers.

Now also understand, I don't advocate this. But I also know it gets done. It's a lot of work and a lot of money. This is why I went 'warranty block'. I wasn't trying to hide that it wasn't the original engine.

[Junkman]

actually if i may say here guys that these "ALL NEW" camaro's/ bel air's/ 'rustangs (im a chev guy can't you tell? ) chev trucks, etc.... ? if there illegal then why are you able to build a complete car/ truck out of a catalog? and why are they building them on tv shows?

examples.... Chop Cut Rebuild

1953 chevy pickup

and MuscleCar tv's very own ... CRATE CAMARO!

http://www.powerbloc...-02&ep_sea=0801

TV?

Don't you have any reliable sources?

Edited October 30, 2011 by Junkman