Harry P. Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 I really think we've oversold college myself; we need to return to apprenticeships, business colleges, and similar training opportunities. Community and technical colleges provide those things. Ditto and amen! A college degree isn't for everyone. And for many it's not even a necessity. I know, I know... there are certain fields (medicine, law, finance, etc.) where you have to have a degree, but there are plenty of other options. Not everyone is destined to be a lawyer or doctor or corporate-type person. A good trade school that also has an apprenticeship and/or placement program makes a lot more sense for many people that a college degree. A kid who likes to work with his hands is probably better off getting an apprentice job as a carpenter, electrician, plumber, etc. when they graduate HS, and by the time their friends are graduating college and beginning their lives in the hole with many thousands of $$$ in college loan debt, they will have been working for four years making money. Again, I'm not saying that works for everyone, but I agree with Charlie that we have fooled ourselves into thinking that everyone must go to college in order to make it in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rel14 Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 College,.. look what it did to are Government... lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
route66modeler Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 my daughter is going to be a grade school teacher. no other way to be a teacher.Getting a 4 year degree is the only way you can become public school teacher. But, you are correct, there are kids who have no business going to a 4 year college. HIghschools have done away with shop classes that gave kids a taste of "other" job options that don't require a 4 year degree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Cranky Posted August 13, 2012 Author Share Posted August 13, 2012 Harry, I agree with you, but we have to remember that COLLEGE (in part thanks to sports) has been packaged and sold now as the next logical commercial step for young people to take and continue to keep spending money. It's a MUST-DO for FOUR YEARS. I was at the University of Texas at Austin several years ago and I was amazed at how the University had turned their student life center into a shopping center. College is NOT for EVERYONE, but it has become big business for some schools. The Ivy League Colleges will always be there for the upper crust, but for some State and private schools, EDUCATION has become a big business. If you get the kids in for four years you have more than a captive market. You have power over them. You can sell them stuff. Then all these FOR-PROFIT schools have sprung up everywhere selling themselves as nothing more than job placement agencies. As politicians sell more industries off to other parts of the world, the professional job pool has dried up. I see very bad times ahead for the new generations with our without college degrees. But while they--the youngsters--are not looking because they are having a great time in College, most of their future jobs are vanishing. Thus their label: THE BOOMERANG GENERATION. They go away and come back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Thus their label: THE BOOMERANG GENERATION. They go away and come back. Mine can't come back. I changed the locks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemodeler Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 having worked in the automotive industry for 30 years, I can tell you that some of the smartest people I have met came from a tech school and not a college. I have been overlooked for promotions due to a lack of a college degree but yet those who got promoted could not do half the work I can because they lacked common sense and street smarts, something no college can teach. I am the only one among my siblings that does not have a college degree but am the one most of them turn to for advice on many subjects due to my varied background and desire to always learn more. I agree that technology has changed the landscape for all businesses but as we all know certain jobs still rely on hard work and skill building. Most master carpenters I know spent 4-5 years as an apprentice learning all aspects of the trade before they were allowed to be called a journeyman. Same goes for plumbers and electricians! In the automotive repair trade, mechanics have become more highly skilled than ever before. The investment in tools is incredible as the vehicles have become more sophisticated. Some people think the $500 tool set on sale at Sears is enough to fix most cars and while that may be true for some types of repairs, the truth of the matter is that a good technician probably has at least $25,000 in tools and if they have to buy their own diagnostic equipment, it can easily be $40,000 or more! People seem to think paying a doctor $150 for 10 minutes of office time to diagnose an ailment is okay but a mechanic should not charge for that 2 hours of time spent finding that loose wire or cracked vacuum line. My son is going off to college at a military school and will be pursuing a degree in criminal justice and psychology with the plan to join the Marine Corps as an officer upon graduation. His goal is to be a career military Marine and the college degree will be his ticket to opening doors in the Marines for jobs he may not be considered for as an enlisted man. While we would have preferred he attend a state college that would be considerably cheaper for us all, the college he chose will give him the foundation for a successful career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemodeler Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Mine can't come back. I changed the locks! Thats' funny Harry! I have teased my kids that I would move without leaving a forwarding address! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabsscale1 Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Well My oldest went off to college 6 years ago and after 2 years of it she decided it wasn't for her. She then met a guy that she moved in with 3 years ago. Hardiy ever see her as she does live 8 hours away from us. My youngest Graduates from college this december and then has 3 more years to get another degreee in Physical Thereapy field. Hardy ever see her as well as she works 2 to 3 jobs plus goes to school. . I guess it really never bothered me when they left as they were never home during their High school years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxer Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 My kids are 33 and 36 so it's been awhile since they've lived home. My daughter, the oldest, is a free thinker and eventually went to an Agricultural school and never followed it for a vocation. She worked at all the gourmet restaurants around here for peanuts. She's lived away but has always been "away" since high school. We still miss here at those times, but now she has a thriving dog car business and lives 10 minutes away. My son went to college 4 hours away, met the girl of his dreams and settled there. Now two grandkids and 4 hours we don't see them that often but it could be worse. I have liked having the house to ourselves and the kids responsible for themselves after all those years. I feel we did our job and now time to "retire"! I OWN my basement model shop! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Cranky Posted August 13, 2012 Author Share Posted August 13, 2012 All of this discussion is already making me long for THANKSGIVING, which is my favorite holiday because it brings everyone together again. :wub: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie8575 Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 In the automotive repair trade, mechanics have become more highly skilled than ever before. The investment in tools is incredible as the vehicles have become more sophisticated. Some people think the $500 tool set on sale at Sears is enough to fix most cars and while that may be true for some types of repairs, the truth of the matter is that a good technician probably has at least $25,000 in tools and if they have to buy their own diagnostic equipment, it can easily be $40,000 or more! People seem to think paying a doctor $150 for 10 minutes of office time to diagnose an ailment is okay but a mechanic should not charge for that 2 hours of time spent finding that loose wire or cracked vacuum line. Mike, I'm now going to reveal my ignorance.... I'm well aware that there's a big difference in price between even the better quality Craftsman and Snap-On and S-K tools, and also in many cases, a major difference in total quality, but I'm curious as to how a fully-equipped shop can run $25,000? I'm running through the list of stuff in my head, and I still can't top about ten large. I'm guessing based on earlier conversation your son is off to Norwich? Great school; I have several friends that went there. He might want to consider attending law school after with that degree combination. Particularly if he's looking at the service as a career path, the Navy/USMC can usually be talked into picking up the tab, plus he'll have something to do after he retires from active or reserve duty. If he signs into the reserves now, the GI Bill might also help pay for his undergrad work. Charlie Larkin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf15 Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 The oldest is an elementary school teacher and a mother of two . The younger is an RN in North Carolina who delivered my third granddaughter this morning which makes two for her ! Callie Rae starts nursing school next Monday morning . Thankfully , she will be living at home for the next 4 years . I dropped her off at the airport last Wednesday for her flight to visit her sister in NC and fought off the tears till I was halfway home . If this one ever moves away , I'm in biiiiig trouble ! She has been my sidekick for the past 17 years and I'd be lost without her . They all grow up , enjoy them as much as you can , let them go without visible regret , and revel in their accomplishments ! The grandkids are the icing on the cake ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milkman Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Virgil, Very interesting topic when I look at all the responses. I just retired from 20 years teaching history in junior high and have seen the change from teaching skills needed for a job to emphasis on the mentality that everyone needs to go to college. We also owned and operated a dairy farm for 25 years and sold the cows and equipment about 7 years ago. The teaching job required a degree and the dairy did not. I have a son and daughter and growing up on a dairy and both parents teaching school gave them an interesting perspective. They both said they would never depend on the government or weather for a living. I can empathize with you guys about how empty the house becomes when they leave. Wait till the grandkids come for a visit and then once again the house seems so quite and empty when they leave. I agree totally that many people are just not suited for college and do great without it using the God given talents they have. I have friends my age that have been very successful with a degree and many just as successful without one. Just because I have degrees does not mean I think everyone has to go that route. For many years we had great vocational and technical classes in our school and so many of my former students have great lives because of those classes and the skills they learned. I also have many former students with college degrees that are back at home and looking for a job. For some reason, the state decided several years ago to cut all funding for the vocational type classes and they have been dropped from the curriculum. I think that is one reason we see more technical schools now since the students don't get it during high school. I personally would rather see the kids taught skills and employed as contributing members of society than back at home with a degree and a liability to their parents or society. (Sorry, had to vent just a little.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milkman Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 I agree with grandkids as icing on the cake. What a blast when they come to visit. My son and daughter both say that we don't care if they come or not just so the granddaughters get to come. We are not that bad, just close to it I guess. They do fill up the empty house again with laughter and good memories being formed. "Life is like a roll of toilet paper, the closer to the end you get the faster it seems to go." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvandmoviecars Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 My baby is 8... I keep telling her to stop growing, but she tells me she can't!<LOL> So I enjoy every day, but know that iI'll miss her, when she grows up.... gotta cherish every moment.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 "Life is like a roll of toilet paper, the closer to the end you get the faster it seems to go." Never heard that line before, but I like it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Cranky Posted August 14, 2012 Author Share Posted August 14, 2012 Yes, I think it can be turned into a song. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemodeler Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Mike, I'm now going to reveal my ignorance.... I'm well aware that there's a big difference in price between even the better quality Craftsman and Snap-On and S-K tools, and also in many cases, a major difference in total quality, but I'm curious as to how a fully-equipped shop can run $25,000? I'm running through the list of stuff in my head, and I still can't top about ten large. I'm guessing based on earlier conversation your son is off to Norwich? Great school; I have several friends that went there. He might want to consider attending law school after with that degree combination. Particularly if he's looking at the service as a career path, the Navy/USMC can usually be talked into picking up the tab, plus he'll have something to do after he retires from active or reserve duty. If he signs into the reserves now, the GI Bill might also help pay for his undergrad work. Charlie Larkin Charlie- It is not ignorance, just a lack of knowledge and an idea of what a decent shop needs to have to fix cars. If a shop was to only specialize on one type of car or repair, then the costs are much different. Kind of like comparing a traditional lumberyard to a Home Depot, both have 2x4's, but Home Depot has appliances, paint, lawn & garden and a whole bunch more! It is the specialized equipment that is needed for repairs and diagnostics, some of it because of government regulations. All new cars have a system called TPMS- Tire Pressure Management System. This was mandated because of the Ford Explorer's rolling over when the Firestone tires were low on pressure and starting blowouts. Big Brother decided we needed another safety system because some people don't understand the importance of checking their tires, mainly due to self serve gas stations replacing the old time full service ones! Multiply these types of specialized systems and the tools to fix them and it is easy to get to $25,000. A good impact wrench to remove lug nuts will be $200 & up, the special impact sockets to go on the impact wrench will be close to another $200, if you want them to last. Keep in mind that most of the better tools come with a lifetime warranty so in order to offer that, the manufacturers have to factor in the replacements and that adds to the costs. Yes, my son will be at Norwich and he is excited and nervous all at the same time. He should do fine, it is where he wants to go and the program is designed to his goals. He is looking at applying for scholarships from the Marines to help with the cost of school and he may consider law school upon graduation as he is a natural born arguer! Ultimately he wants a career in the military and knows the path through college and OCS will result in better pay and rank. He is a very intelligent kid and would be a great asset to our national defense. We went shooting yesterday and while he was bragging on the way to the range about his 2 years on the shooting team in JROTC and his sharpshooter medals, he was impressed with his old man's ability to outshoot him! While we keep saying we are looking forward to the quiet when he leaves, truth be told we will miss him terribly. His little sister and mother are in denial about his leaving so I expect Saturday morning will be a tearful goodbye at the airport. If it is anything like when he went off to kindergarten, his mom will need 2 boxes of tissues! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemodeler Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Returned last night from New England and the first thing I notice is the humidity when I get off the plane in Charlotte! Had a great time dropping off my son in Vermont, a chance for he and I to spend some quality time together before he moved into his dorm room and I headed back home. It was great to see the transition in him and I know he will do well in school, having him so far from home will be the hardest. A week ago I wished he would quiet down as I work from home and his voice carries throughout the house, now I wish I could ask him for help with a project! So it goes, life moves on and they can't be kids forever but we are definitely looking forward to Thanksgiving when he will come home and we can be a family of four again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Cranky Posted August 20, 2012 Author Share Posted August 20, 2012 Mike, thanks for sharing this, it goes to show that all of us have to go through these experiences and learn from them. It's not easy, but you do survive and move on . . . Of course, as a kid I suffered tremendously from separation anxiety, and I don't think it's something I've dealt with well as an adult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf15 Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Well. Today was Callie's first day of classes for nursing school . She called last night to get a pep talk to calm the nerves a bit . I did The Dad speech and calmed her down . She then proceeded to tell me I owed her brunch after class being that it was her first day and all ! Lol ! Some things never seem to change and I hope they never will ! It's a joy to see them grow up and a pain at the same time ! Like my Daddy always said , " Son , when they're little , they pull on the apron strings " . " When they get big , they pull on the heart strings ". Amazing how the older I've gotten , the smarter he's become ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemodeler Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Amazing how the older I've gotten , the smarter he's become ! Donn, so very true! Despite being 90 and losing his mind to dementia, I still learn things from speaking with my father and hope the same holds true with every child. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf15 Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Like it was yesterday... Eighteen years old telling him he was wrong ! Watched the eyes narrow , the steel cords in those forearms bunch , he poked me in the forehead with that finger , punctuating each single word ! " The older you get , the smarter that I'll get ! " Flash forward , years later , sitting on a wall with him , in between games of a tournament . Him sitting there smirking , watching the blood slowly ooze out of the wounds I'd earned that day ! " What are you smirking at , ya old goat , I asked ? " " Just wondering how smart I am these days , Boy ? " came the reply . " You've got Einstein beat , Hands down ! " " Now, put a lock on your lip and quit your gloating. " He threw his arm around my neck and put his forehead against mine and we laughed until the tears rolled down our faces ! Two weeks ago , I chewed Kathie's son , Patrick a new one ! Pointed at him and told him the older he gets , the smarter I get . Kathie walked around the corner to find me banging my head off the door . " What are you doing ? , she asked . " I sound , smack , just like , smack , my father ! " smack , smack ! I said . I stepped away from the door , grinned , and said , " I'm my Father's son " . Her answer , " And Patrick will be the better for it " . If I grow up to be half the man my father is , I will have accomplished much in my lifetime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie8575 Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 (edited) Two weeks ago , I chewed Kathie's son , Patrick a new one ! Pointed at him and told him the older he gets , the smarter I get . Kathie walked around the corner to find me banging my head off the door . " What are you doing ? , she asked . " I sound , smack , just like , smack , my father ! " smack , smack ! I said . Boy, I wish more kids would get that at home! After all the years I spent in the classroom, with smart-mouthed, entitled little twerps who would walk all over their parents, then the parents would blame me for the problems they caused! As I'll be returning to the classroom on a part-time basis this fall out of necessity, I can only hope some of these tough times the last couple of years has started to change the tide a little. I'll know in a few weeks, but even beyond that is the laws that force parents to let their children run the house. Something is very wrong here. Charlie Larkin Edited August 20, 2012 by charlie8575 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie8575 Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Returned last night from New England and the first thing I notice is the humidity when I get off the plane in Charlotte! Had a great time dropping off my son in Vermont, a chance for he and I to spend some quality time together before he moved into his dorm room and I headed back home. It was great to see the transition in him and I know he will do well in school, having him so far from home will be the hardest. A week ago I wished he would quiet down as I work from home and his voice carries throughout the house, now I wish I could ask him for help with a project! So it goes, life moves on and they can't be kids forever but we are definitely looking forward to Thanksgiving when he will come home and we can be a family of four again. Now you understand why I really don't want to move down there, Mike! It's actually been quite humid here this summer, and I've been trapped inside because I don't deal well with humidity. Glad to see the drop-off went well. If he needs anything locally, tell him he's welcome to contact me and I'll be happy to help out if I can. Charlie Larkin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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