may be a revolution in engine design

[mnwildpunk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c19kn3drdFU. This short video really intrigued me. Sort of reminds me of the wobble plates you find in A/C systems. Well not a revolution since it's been around for quite awhile but it would turn the automotive world on its ear. Not a whole lot of info out there on it Edited September 5, 2014 by mnwildpunk

[unclescott58]

Very interesting. Thanks for linking this. I'm no engineer, so I have no real comments. I'd be interested in hearing what experts in the field think about the Duke engine and their claims. To somebody like me, it looks good and makes sense.

Scott

[Greg Myers]

wobble plates you find in A/C systems.

My first thought as well. They don't use them any more do they >

[my80malibu]

They dont use pistons anymore, they still use the Swash plate to control the Freon flow GM calls it the VVTXV, and VVOT.

[blunc]

since it's not a new concept I'm guessing there's a reason it's not already in widespread use.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Very interesting. Its inherent resistance to detonation and toleration of high compression ratios make it a good candidate for gaseous fuels like CNG and hydrogen. Their lower energy-content-by-weight (and volume) than gasoline requires a higher specific-output but smaller engine design to enable reasonable range on a full tank of fuel.

But if I had a dollar for every "revolutionary" engine design, I could take a couple of days off.

In the mid-1990s a company I had some dealings with poured millions into R&D on a multi-cylinder / swashplate design.

They've given on that one and are now pursuing another "revolutionary" design, a warmed-over Wankel...

Here's a few more interesting ones.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy

[Greg Myers]

You'll need a good 200 mpg carburetor to fuel that thing, http://www.fireballroberts.com/Fish_Story.htm

http://www.apparentlyapparel.com/news/200mpg-carburetor-conversion-pdf

[drball]

Very similar to the axial piston pumps in industrial hydraulics. Very popular today.

[mnwildpunk]

Bill what are the limitations of a swashplate engine? My opinion is it a low reving engine but Idk I wish I could find more info on it

[unclescott58]

I've being thinking about this engine since watching the video the first time a few days ago. What could potenionaly be wrong with this idea? It dawned on me as I thought about it, that the cylinders themselves are having to move. Don't know why I didn't pick this up or think about it the first time I watch the video? This brings up the problem of sealing between the cylinder head and piston. How is this done? And how long will that seal last? Also the mass of the cylinders themselves moving. How are they held in place to allow them to rotate but not move in other ways? And how is this system lubricated? For those with more knowledge than I in mechanics and engineering these may not be problems at all? For me, the design is not as simple as it first appeared.

Scott

Edited September 6, 2014 by unclescott58

[ShredHippie]

An interesting design like many others...but what is the long term durability & reliability of it? Can it go 150K miles with the poor maintenance that the general public will subject it to? another thing....high compression ratios create high combustion temperatures that create NOx emissions...the main contributor to smog. Would the EPA nix it for emissions alone even if it got 100mpg? But regardless...if an engine got 100mpg I'm sure the oil corporations would buy the rights and bury it.

[Nitrozilla]

I just want to know one thing. How do you mount a blower on it?

[unclescott58]

An interesting design like many others...but what is the long term durability & reliability of it? Can it go 150K miles with the poor maintenance that the general public will subject it to? another thing....high compression ratios create high combustion temperatures that create NOx emissions...the main contributor to smog. Would the EPA nix it for emissions alone even if it got 100mpg? But regardless...if an engine got 100mpg I'm sure the oil corporations would buy the rights and bury it.

I don't think anybody is claiming it will 100 mpg? And why would the oil companies really want to "bury it", if it got 100 mpg? They not trying to bury cars like Tesla. And the Tesla uses no gas at all.

Better hide. The aliens in the CIA black helicopters are coming to stop you from exposing the conspiracy to burying all of 100 mpg carburetors and engines to the public at large.

Scott

Edited September 7, 2014 by unclescott58

[ShredHippie]

They didn't say anything about 100mpg. I ran with that because they are talking about "increased efficiency" and "lighter weight" which in a car translates to better MPG. Why would an oil company try to bury or impede it? ...because it would hurt thier profits! See Ovonic Batteries..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_automotive_NiMH_batteries and I'm sure there are many other examples.

Speaking of Tesla...what about the fighting they have had to do, to be able to sell directly to customers? http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-05-08/tesla-dealer-fight-continues-as-missouri-weighs-direct-sales-ban.html and why are they trying to impede Tesla? ...well a lot of lawmakers just happen to own car dealerships..not to mention all the "contributions" from lobbyists that MAY influence the laws they write. "It’s just dealers trying to protect their profits.”

Thanks for trying to label me as a wacko.. Corporations do a lot of nefarious things you need to open your eyes to. Who said anything about black helicopters...are you seeing them? Aliens are cool though.

Peace my friend

[Ace-Garageguy]

It dawned on me as I thought about it, that the cylinders themselves are having to move. A very good point, and probably one of the reasons the engine seems to be somewhat rev-limited at this phase of development. Though the internal parts are made as light as possible, centrifugal and centripetal forces will be acting on the parts in ways not encountered in other engine designs and will most likely take multiple iterations of the basic design, running on the dyno, to fully understand and accommodate.

This brings up the problem of sealing between the cylinder head and piston. How is this done? And how long will that seal last? Another very good point, and you're thinking just as a development engineer needs to think. The sliding sealing arrangement necessary is not entirely unlike what has been successfully developed for the Wankel (think Mazda rotor-motor) engines over the years, so there's a data base of materials and designs to start from. This sealing problem was one of the biggest hurdles Wankel engine developers had to overcome.

Also the mass of the cylinders themselves moving. How are they held in place to allow them to rotate but not move in other ways? Part of the first question, and doubtless part of the patented-applied-for technology. IF the patents have been granted, the information is available for public perusal.

And how is this system lubricated? I didn't see much cooling system either. But we'd have to assume that, as some of the engineers are ex-Cosworth, these have been dealt with. But it brings up, again, that a design done in a computer does NOT automatically work in reality. Running prototypes have to be built and tested, and the data recovered from testing used to modify the CAD design to build the NEXT prototype. Repeat as necessary, or until the money runs out.

Scott

...but what is the long term durability & reliability of it? Can it go 150K miles with the poor maintenance that the general public will subject it to? At this point in development, probably 4th or 5th generation running prototype based on some other video material I've seen, it's too early to get a good feel (unless you have access to the internal test results) for the long term durability of this design.

..another thing....high compression ratios create high combustion temperatures that create NOx emissions...the main contributor to smog. Would the EPA nix it for emissions alone even if it got 100mpg? There are a variety of ways to deal with nitrous oxide formation, a result of high combustion chamber temperatures. Exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) is one, but the best way to control exhaust emissions is through chamber design and engine control technology. That's fuel delivery, ignition timing and valve-event timing. This engine is not NECESSARILY a high-compression engine, it simply will TOLERATE high compression-ratios without detonation. That makes it particularly attractive for operation on low-emissions gaseous fuels like hydrogen or CNG, which need higher compression ratios to deliver comparable power and range to gasoline. Another intriguing thing about it liking high compression ratios but being a little low-revving is that it might be better suited as a Diesel, or as a fixed-speed engine in a hybrid application.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

Bill what are the limitations of a swashplate engine?

Excellent question, and I'm just not knowledgeable enough about it to give a good answer. Yet. I'm glad you posted this though, as it's got me doing smme research into some of the more promising "revolutionary" designs from the past 2 decades, to try to get a feel of where we really are.

A low-revving engine isn't necessarily a bad thing if it makes a lot of power for it's fuel consumption. A low-revving engine can function very well as a fixed-rpm power unit for a constantly-recharging hybrid, for example. But in general, I'm opposed to excessive complication. It's hard to beat a Wankel for simplicity and low number of moving parts.

And clean-sheet-of-paper engine designs take time. Ol' Felix got his Wankel engine patent in 1929, but there wasn't a running prototype until '57. Then it took Mazda's involvement in R&D, dumping tons of $$ into the thing, to solve the worst of the problems (apex and side seals) by the late '60s. GM gave up on the technology.

From Wikipee:

Mazda is still continuing development of the next generation of Wankel engines, the 16X. The company is researching engine laser ignition, eliminating spark plugs, and direct fuel injection to which the Wankel engine is suited. This leads towards a greater rotor eccentricity, equaling a longer stroke in a reciprocating engine, for better elasticity and low rpm torque. These innovations promise to improve fuel consumption and emissions.^[47][48][49] To improve fuel efficiency further Mazda is looking at using the Wankel as a range extender in series-hybrid cars and announced a prototype, the Mazda2 EV, for press evaluation in November 2013. This configuration improves fuel efficiency and emissions. As a further advantage, running a Wankel engine at a constant speed also gives greater engine life. Keeping to a near constant, or narrow band, of revolutions eliminates, or vastly reduces, many of the disadvantages of the Wankel engine.^[15]

Edited September 7, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy

[mnwildpunk]

Thank you bill I have more research to do

Edited September 8, 2014 by mnwildpunk