Beginner mods to '10 Model T?

[clovis]

I am sorry to sound like an idiot...please forgive.

I am back in the hobby after a 25 year hiatus, and want to try to build some mods into my Lindburg 1910 Model T kit.

Sure, I know it is a super basic kit, but it was only $8 with shipping on ebay. While I'd like some top end kits, I'm on a budget, especially while I hone my skills again.

I'd like to modify this kit some to make it look like it was an early Model T racer, as if someone bought it second hand and entered it into the local race tracks.

Is it possible to make the back end of the car sit higher than the front end, using all of the same size of wheels and tires???

How can I best achieve that stance?

Again, I am sorry to ask such basic questions. I've always built 100% box stock. I hate to hack up any kit, even an $8 one, so I thought I would ask here first.

Thank you so much!!!!!

[Art Anderson]

I am sorry to sound like an idiot...please forgive.

I am back in the hobby after a 25 year hiatus, and want to try to build some mods into my Lindburg 1910 Model T kit.

Sure, I know it is a super basic kit, but it was only $8 with shipping on ebay. While I'd like some top end kits, I'm on a budget, especially while I hone my skills again.

I'd like to modify this kit some to make it look like it was an early Model T racer, as if someone bought it second hand and entered it into the local race tracks.

Is it possible to make the back end of the car sit higher than the front end, using all of the same size of wheels and tires???

How can I best achieve that stance?

Again, I am sorry to ask such basic questions. I've always built 100% box stock. I hate to hack up any kit, even an $8 one, so I thought I would ask here first.

Thank you so much!!!!!

Jeff,

For starters, this sounds like a cool project! If you are wanting to build a vintage racer out of that T, bear in mind that most of those were "back yard" built, and most of the technology we take for granted did not yet exist (for example, electric arc welding, even gas welding of steel wasn't around yet, and even when that did come into use, it wasn't until AFTER the Second World War that it was trusted enough to be accepted for racing (or for that matter, in production). Frames, such as the Model T were hot riveted together, no welds whatsoever. That made serious frame modifications very chancy at best back then!

Here is a pic I took of an exact replica of the Ford factory-built 1911 Model T race car, Ford's "999-II", the original of which still exists in the possession of the Henry Ford Museum (the replica was on display at the Gilmore Classic Car Museum at Hickory Corners MI, where I did a walk around photo shoot of it in the summer of 2004). That car was designed and built by Ford engineer Frank Kulick for entry in the inaugural Indianapolis 500 Mile Race, but was rejected by the AAA and the Speedway for being too light, and with an engine (144cid) that was deemed too small to allow the car to reach the specified minimum straightaway speed of 80mph. Kulick then drove 999-II on a transcontinental run from New York to San Francisco on the very primitive dirt and gravel roads that were all that were available back then, and it DID achieve 80mph straightaway speeds on that run several times, according to the story board. From this pic, you should notice that the front crossmember was changed out for one built to a shallower curve, which placed the nose of the T crankshaft BELOW the crossmember, and uses a much flatter front spring.

The rear of the chassis has a "suicide" spring perch in place of the standard rear crossmember (I was unable to get a pic of that, as the car was backed up too close to the wall of the building!) which effectively raised the top of the arched rear leaf spring higher in relation to the frame rails. This had the effect of lowering the rear of the car, to the point that the frame rails are practically dead level with the surface the car stood on--no "rake", if you will. The concept of giving a race car a lower front stance in comparison to the rear, or "rake" didn't really take hold until the late 1920's and the advent of the "balloon" tire (your T has straight sided, clincher-rim, high pressure tires--no such thing as "big and little" tire sizes on race cars in 1910, not even until the early 1930's).

All this said, a T, modified for racing anywhere from 1908 (when Model T was introduced to the World) and at least the very early 1920's, would have had the bodywork removed behind the firewall, and the seats (generally speaking, until 1922, when the American Automobile Association (AAA) Contest Board allowed the removal of riding mechanics in AAA-sanctioned races) were lowered down to just a couple of inches above the frame rails, which did lower the center of gravity quite a bit (consider that a Model T Ford, with open bodywork weighed less than 2000lbs, moving a 140-160lb driver and a passenger/riding mechanic down say, a foot or so on the chassis had a serious, but positive effect on the CG, not to mention reducing drag (or wind resistance).

Such modifications were about it, frankly. Even legendary cars such as the Stutz Bearcat (built pretty much exactly as the first Stutz ran at Indianapolis in 1911) and the Mercer Raceabout were little more than production passenger car chassis, with virtually no bodywork, and a pair of "bucket" seats very much like the 999-II in my pics here, had essentially the same general appearance, as to a great many modern-built, but vintage-looking, Model T Speedsters.

I'd not worry about doing any engine modifications, as in 1910 there was virtually nothing at all available in the way of hop-up, or speed equipment for a Model T Ford (or for that matter, most any other production car either!). So, if a T was stripped down for racing back in that year, it was just that, stripped down, and still having the stock 22hp 4-cylinder engine and planetary transmission as produced. But, to answer your basic question, yes the front of the frame can be lowered, and for a vintage look, very much like shown in the first picture above.

Still though, I repeat: This could be a cool project!

Art

[clovis]

Art,

Thank you so much for your wonderful reply. I really appreciate your time and helpfulness...and anytime I can learn something new about the Indy 500, I am all ears.

This Lindberg kit is pretty basic, and with my skill set being so low, I'll probably leave the fenders on it since they are molded into the body. I know that anyone looking for speed would have removed them back in the day.

Can you give me any insight as to how to modify the springs so the front end sits a little lower? Or should I just start cutting, and modify as I build, and see if it all works?

If I remove the height of the front spring by 1/4", will I need to lengthen the front spindles by 1/4" taller to make it work, since all the wheels are the same size?

Again, thank you so much!!!!!!!!!!!! I really do appreciate your helpfulness!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited July 12, 2013 by clovis

[clovis]

Art, now you have me wanting to buy some Evergreen to build a new frame, and make this a racer like the 999-II, using the block and hood from the Lindberg kit.

[Harry P.]

Art, now you have me wanting to buy some Evergreen to build a new frame, and make this a racer like the 999-II, using the block and hood from the Lindberg kit.

That's the way to go. The Lindberg kit doesn't actually have a separate frame at all, the suspension components glue onto the fender/floorboard unit. You'd be better off building your own frame. It's very basic, just a pair of rails and a few crossmembers... it'll be a snap to scratchbuild it.

[Art Anderson]

Art, now you have me wanting to buy some Evergreen to build a new frame, and make this a racer like the 999-II, using the block and hood from the Lindberg kit.

Jeff,

Building a Model T Ford frame from scratch would be quite easy indeed--just two frame rails, two crossmembers (the flywheel housing on the engine, when bolted to the frame rails made the 3rd crossmember!).

You might take the time to Google for images of Model T Ford chassis--surely pics are abundant online. Other than that, bear in mind that the wheelbase of the Model T throughout its production run (15,250,000 from the summer of 1908 to the summer of 1927) was 100". As for the width of the frame, you ought to be able to determine that from the model kit fender/floorboard unit, or interpolate it from the frame in either of the AMT 1/25 scale Model T kits.

As for the front axle kingpins, flattening out the arch of the front spring won't affect those in any way, nor would it affect the spring perch points on the axle--just adjust the length of the spring to mate up to those.

Art

[Sixties Sam]

Jeff, for reference, here's a model of a "backyard built" 1925 T racer I built a while ago using the AMT '25 T kit. The chassis is totally stock - no raising or lowering. I cut off the fenders and used the stock floorboards. The stock T engine block was fitted with the Frontenac DOHC head and exhaust pipe from the '27 T kit. Dual carbs from the parts box. It may not be completely accurate, but I think it captures the feel of the early days of racing.

[clovis]

That's the way to go. The Lindberg kit doesn't actually have a separate frame at all, the suspension components glue onto the fender/floorboard unit. You'd be better off building your own frame. It's very basic, just a pair of rails and a few crossmembers... it'll be a snap to scratchbuild it.

You are exactly right about this kit. The body/fenders/floorboard and frame are one unit.

Have you built this kit in the past?

[clovis]

Jeff,

Building a Model T Ford frame from scratch would be quite easy indeed--just two frame rails, two crossmembers (the flywheel housing on the engine, when bolted to the frame rails made the 3rd crossmember!).

You might take the time to Google for images of Model T Ford chassis--surely pics are abundant online. Other than that, bear in mind that the wheelbase of the Model T throughout its production run (15,250,000 from the summer of 1908 to the summer of 1927) was 100". As for the width of the frame, you ought to be able to determine that from the model kit fender/floorboard unit, or interpolate it from the frame in either of the AMT 1/25 scale Model T kits.

As for the front axle kingpins, flattening out the arch of the front spring won't affect those in any way, nor would it affect the spring perch points on the axle--just adjust the length of the spring to mate up to those.

Art

Art,

Let's say I get really wild and decide to buy some Evergreen stock.

This kit is 1/16 scale.

How would I determine what size to buy to be accurate in scale for the frame?

[Harry P.]

You are exactly right about this kit. The body/fenders/floorboard and frame are one unit.

Have you built this kit in the past?

Yes, just a few weeks ago.

[clovis]

Jeff, for reference, here's a model of a "backyard built" 1925 T racer I built a while ago using the AMT '25 T kit. The chassis is totally stock - no raising or lowering. I cut off the fenders and used the stock floorboards. The stock T engine block was fitted with the Frontenac DOHC head and exhaust pipe from the '27 T kit. Dual carbs from the parts box. It may not be completely accurate, but I think it captures the feel of the early days of racing.

I love it!!!!!!

What got me thinking about modifying the kit was that I have some parts left over from an AMT 1/16 Mustang, and I thought they would be cool as parts Lindberg 1910 Model T if I build it as an early hot rod. Then I started thinking about the early barn stormers and early racing...and thought the car would be cool built and painted that way.

Now I wish I would have bought several of the same kit when someone was dumping them super cheap on ebay with a 99 cent start and $5 shipping.

I'd like to have:

One to build as an early hot rod, just like you did.

One to build as an early barn storm or back yard racer.

One to build with a scratch built frame, to look like the car in the pics that Art posted.

Thank you for the replies!!!!!!

.

[clovis]

Harry!!!!!!

That is beautiful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You had the same idea that I did about wood floorboards. They look great!!!!!

I have a million questions, but here are a few to start:

How did you get such a basic kit to look so nice? Your paint is absolutely stunning.

How did you get the gaudy plated brass parts to look so realistic? Did you strip the plating and paint them? What color did you use? Brand? Enamel or Acrylic?

As for the wood dash/firewall...how did you get that to look so great? Color? brand?

Seats? How can I get my seats to look that good?

Will you be my coach on this project???

[Harry P.]

How did I get a basic kit to look so nice? Reference photos and a lot of scratchbuilding. Opened the doors, used real wood on the floor and firewall, etc., etc.

I hate that "chrome plated brass" look. Maybe for a show car, but I doubt the average Model T owner polished his brass every weekend! I sprayed each "brass" part with Testors Transparent Black window tint (basically a thinned-down black lacquer). That acts as a wash to highlight the "nooks and crannies" and also tones down that garish "brass" of the plated parts. Then I spray then with Dullcote. That gives the look of natural, unpolished brass. You can see how close this comes to the look of real brass in the rear view. Those straps on the gas tank are real brass. They look very close to the other "brass" parts that I created with my technique.

The wood dash/firewall is basswood. I mixed up my own "stain" using yellow and red acrylic craft paint thinned with Future. The orangey color is based on reference pix I found online. Once I "stained" the wood, I followed up with several coats of pure Future to get a glossy varnished look.

I painted the seats with a dark gray acrylic craft paint which dries dead flat, then sprayed them with that same Testors window tint spray that I used on all the brass parts, That served several purposes: Darkened up the gray to look more like "leather," emphasized the creases and folds, and gave the seats a semi-gloss look that looks a lot like leather to me.

I also added inner door panels, door latches, a choke control, the surround on the floor pedals, "bolts" on the firewall and elsewhere made of sewing pins, new glass made of thin Lexan, and all sorts of little bits and pieces to make the car more realistic and get away from the kit's "toylike" look.

[Art Anderson]

How did I get a basic kit to look so nice? Reference photos and a lot of scratchbuildimg. Opened the doors, used real wood on the floor and firewall, etc., etc.

I hate that "chrome plated brass" look. Maybe for a show car, but I doubt the average Model T owner polished his brass every weekend! I sprayed each "brass" part with Testors Transparent Black window tint (basically a thinned-down black lacquer). That acts as a wash to highlight the "nooks and crannies" and also tones down that garish "brass" of the plated parts. Then I spray then with Dullcote. That gives the look of natural, unpolished brass. You can see how close this comes to the look of real brass in the rear view. Those straps on the gas tank are real brass. They look very close to the other "brass" parts that I created with my technique.

The wood dash/firewall is basswood. I mixed up my own "stain" using yellow and red acrylic craft paint thinned with Future. The orangey color is based on reference pix I found online. Once I "stained" the wood, I followed up with several coats of pure Future to get a glossy varnished look.

I painted the seats with a dark gray acrylic craft paint which dries dead flat, then sprayed them with that same Testors window tint spray that I used on all the brass parts, That served several purposes: Darkened up the gray to look more like "leather," emphasized the creases and folds, and gave the seats a semi-gloss look that looks a lot like leather to me.

I also added inner door panels, door latches, a choke control, the surround on the floor pedals, "bolts" on the firewall and elsewhere made of sewing pins, new glass made of thin Lexan, and all sorts of little bits and pieces to make the car more realistic and get away from the kit's "toylike" look.

To add just another dimension to this, in 1979, when Lesney-AMT decided to reissue the 1907 New York to Paris Thomas Flyer, they contracted me to do a box art model (Lesney carried forward the AMT practice of photographic box art back then), giving me a fair amount of latitude to make the model as realistic as possible without modifying the kit in any way.

I decided to give the model a weathered finish, of course, the paintwork, but also the gold-toned "brass" vacuum plated parts, as the AMT model kit represents the Thomas as it was driven down the Champs d'Elysee in Paris to finish the race and win the prize money. That meant doing a car that had withstood the elements of nature for aboutr 5 months and over 12,000 miles of driving over unpaved roads, even going cross country down railroad tracks (Trans Siberian Railway), and some 1000 miles across roadless steppes in Russia. Needless to say, the once polished brass radiator, headlights, taillight, hubcaps, Prestolite Acetylene gas generator and gear shift/hand brake levers were very tarnished.

Now, brass, due to its copper content, tarnishes out brown, but the tarnish itself, remains a bit translucent, meaning you can still sense there is polished brass there someplace underneath. How to replicate that? I discovered that Testors Flat Rubber, a brown black flat paint, when thinned to a wash with lacquer thinner, airbrushes beautifully over gold tone finished model kit plating, and results in a very realistic tarnished brass look to such surfaces.

Art

[clovis]

Harry,

Is there any chance you could post a picture of the bottom side of your car?

What color did you paint the bottom side of the fenders and faux frame?

If it is a different color or shade of black, did you tape off the top from the bottom?

Where exactly did you put your tape line on the body?

[clovis]

Art,

Thank you so much for your post!!!!!

I do have Testors Rubber color, but no working airbrush at this point. Any ideas on how I can use the thinned Testors rubber without an AB?

Again, thank you so much for your posts!!!! You are a wonderful writer, and it is always a joy to read your VERY informational posts!!!!

[Harry P.]

Harry,

Is there any chance you could post a picture of the bottom side of your car?

What color did you paint the bottom side of the fenders and faux frame?

If it is a different color or shade of black, did you tape off the top from the bottom?

Where exactly did you put your tape line on the body?

I put all my detailing efforts in on the visible parts of the model–the underside is straight out of the box, no added details, and all painted the same black as the rest of the car. On the real car there would be brackets that the fenders mount to, there would be rods from the brake lever back to the rear parking brake, etc. But I didn't bother with any of that. There's nothing under there worth posting here (and I don't even have an underside photo anyway).

[clovis]

Harry,

I still have a billion and a half questions:

Since you recently built this kit, do you have any thoughts on how to rake the front end a bit? I'm not sure how to do this since the back springs sit in the square opening on the faux body/frame,

FWIW, I've never modified or cut a model...ever in my life.

I put all my detailing efforts in on the visible parts of the model–the underside is straight out of the box, no added details, and all painted the same black as the rest of the car. On the real car there would be brackets that the fenders mount to, there would be rods from the brake lever back to the rear parking brake, etc. But I didn't bother with any of that. There's nothing under there worth posting here (and I don't even have an underside photo anyway).

Okay. Thanks so much for all of your help!!!!! I do appreciate it!!!!

[Harry P.]

Well, in real life a very common way to lower the front end on a car of this era is to fabricate a "suicide" style front spring mount. The spring mount is raised up higher than the original mounting position, so in effect the front end of the car sits lower. The front axle and spring doesn't have to be modified at all... the raised spring mount is what gives you the lowered front end...so you'd actually not be cutting the chassis, but adding onto it (the new spring mount).

This model of mine has the front end spring done that way:

As you can see, the top of the arch of the front spring is now located several scale inches above the front crossmember, vs. being mounted under the front crossmember in the stock position. That results in the front of the chassis sitting a few scale inches lower than it would have if the front spring were mounted in the stock position under the front crossmember. The raised spring mount is simply an upside-down "L" shape, the vertical part of the "L" would be welded (glued, in our case) to the front crossmember, and the horizontal leg of the "L" is what the spring gets bolted to via U-bolts that surround the front spring.

[Harry P.]

Here's a real one...

On the Lindberg kit you'd have to cut away the mounting bracket that's molded onto the front spring, but that's an easy enough thing to do. Then scratchbuild your "suicide" spring mount using sheet styrene and you'll have that lowered front end you're looking for. Of course, the stock "wishbone" (that V-shaped bar that connects from the transmission to the front axle and serves to hold the axle at a solid 90 degree angle to the chassis) probably won't work with the suicide axle, as the frame rails would get in the way. You would have to substitute radius rods (like those in the photo above) to hold the axle perpendicular to the frame and keep it from twisting.

[southpier]

this is a fun reference book:

the downside is that the printing is so darn small. interestingly, wooden spars were carved and wired to the tie rods to cut down on cavitation. lots of good info for early ford speedsters.

[Art Anderson]

this is a fun reference book:

the downside is that the printing is so darn small. interestingly, wooden spars were carved and wired to the tie rods to cut down on cavitation. lots of good info for early ford speedsters.

Yes, that is a detail that many racers who used factory stock automobiles having I-beam forged steel front axle did back in the day!

The neatest story, and one I suspect might be in that book, is that of the Barber-Warnock team at Indianapolis in 1924: Barber-Warnock was a large Ford dealer in Indianapolis back in Model T days, and had built up a team of modified Model T Fords for that year's 500. For power, under the hood was a Model T 4cyl, with the then new (and exotic to Americans living in the Midwest for sure) 16-valve DOHC with chain-driven camshafts Frontenac head, which jumped the power of the T engine from 22 bhp to something like 140 hp. Frontenac was the brainchild of one Louis Chevrolet ( who designed and built the prototype Chevrolet automobile in 1911) and was a legendary race car builder and driver, with two brothers who were also race drivers (his younger brother Gaston won the 1920 Indianapolis 500 in a car built by Frontenac, but sponsored by Monroe).

That Barber-Warnock finished 5th in 1924, after a lengthy pit stop to replace a broken front spring (legend has it that a mechanic raced into the infield, found a Model T parked there, with the owner nowhere to be found. He jacked it up, took out the front spring, ran it back to the pits where it was installed in the racecar, and then, AFTER the race, raced back to the same Model T and replaced it--apparently the T's owner never knowing a thing about what had happened!). The 1924 Indianapolis 500 was the first major race in the World to be won by a car equipped with a supercharger--the 1924 Duesenberg, the Barber Warnock being the only car to finish in the money, surrounded by exotic, $10,000 Duesenbergs and Millers.

Total Performance had that day in Indy, as did another adage popular some 50 years afterward in street rodding circles: "It takes a Chevrolet to make a Ford go fast!"..

Art

[Skip]

Suggest picking up a copy of the Rod & Custom "Little Pages" 2011 No. 1 the '27 Ford has the most common lowered front end method that I've seen on Model T Speedsters. It uses a 3/8 to 5/16" strap iron attachment to stretch the front perch ahead of the front crossmember, not certain why they did it this way other than stretching the wheelbase by an inch or two. Also do a web search on the "Multi Aldrich Model T" I believe he used this setup on his Dry Lakes T.

I have seen a couple of Speedsters that use the traditional Hot Rod spring perch, they look a little odd almost not period correct. The only "technical" part of fabricating this type of frame extension would be the 90 degree turn in the strap iron then a 90 deg bend, the wishbones (radius rods) will need to be lengthened accordingly.

Think of it this way, a Hot Rod spring perch requires welding, many Speedster builders wouldn't have had access to welding equipment back in the day, so the bolt on crossmember would be the most common way of lowering the front end. There were a few dropped front axels produced, they would have been out of the average builder's budget though.

[clovis]

Wow...

Thank you for the replies. They are very much appreciated!!!!

I am starting to lean towards building this kit as a barnstorm car. Sure, it will be a bit of a fantasy piece.

Budget is a bit of an issue, and a trip to the LHS is 20 miles, one way. Their prices are stout on most items, including their Evergreen, so I should probably pass right now.

I have already started shopping for another cheap kit of this model on ebay, and this will give me time to look for and study the books that you all have suggested.

I think it would be fun to build a pic of the 999-II that Art posted, and I am already dreaming about building some early Indy 500 cars,

Thanks so much!!!!!!!!

Edited July 16, 2013 by clovis

[clovis]

BTW, I am thinking about painting the body of my 1910 Model T in white. (Yikes!!!!)

Would the underside of the fenders have been white, like the body, or should they be black? If they are to be black, flat or gloss?