Doesn't this just.....

[Nick F40]

I got to thinkin lately after watching some of the racing highlights and the SPEED Report telling about different cheating or penalties man it makes me sad...at least to me........these movies I SWEAR by. I love the music and the footage and the all out racing, I wish I was born in the REAL driving and REAL cars era WHAT HAPPENED? We still ahve some real racing series, but none really are true, raw, and pure motorsports

I wanna cry...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcKO_uGJfqc...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dogeDQJ6r6I...feature=related

[samdiego]

I would guess it's mostly insurance, the unyielding need to eek the most profit from any venture and common sense that has changed motorsports (the entire free world). Like the Daytona footage with car after car careening towards the observer tower. You could never get away with fun stuff like that. You have to go find the racers now. They are still out there. Check the bottom five classes of the SCCA. Low bucks, high determination, racing action at it's best.

[jbwelda]

im not sure of your point but people were always cheating back in the good old days as well; anything to get an advantage on your competitor. many time after a race motors were impounded and torn down only to discover, wow imagine that, illegal parts or out of spec parts in them.

and the very term "sandbagging"...came from putting sandbags in the trunk so to slow your car down to get in a lower bracket in eliminations and then, out come the sandbags! one of the reasons they went to pure bracket racing and if you break out of your bracket, youre disqualified as defacto proof of sandbagging, whether literal or figurative.

but at least back then, when caught, cheaters would confess and mea culpa but now...

what bothers me more today is this general lack of what we used to call sportsmanship. the one i most look to for getting famous for being an a$$ was the "intimidator"...until he got intimidated to a dirt nap. but it seems in everything from little league to major league, there is no more sportsmanship, just a bunch of jerks trying to best each other and then acting like jerks when things dont go their way. i was brought up different i guess.

[jeffb]

sportsmanship is alive..chec k out this vid http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/video?id=3380875

[Nick F40]

  samdiego said:

I would guess it's mostly insurance, the unyielding need to eek the most profit from any venture and common sense that has changed motorsports (the entire free world). Like the Daytona footage with car after car careening towards the observer tower. You could never get away with fun stuff like that. You have to go find the racers now. They are still out there. Check the bottom five classes of the SCCA. Low bucks, high determination, racing action at it's best.

and that is why I love those classes and the SCCA!

  jbwelda said:

im not sure of your point but people were always cheating back in the good old days as well; anything to get an advantage on your competitor. many time after a race motors were impounded and torn down only to discover, wow imagine that, illegal parts or out of spec parts in them.

and the very term "sandbagging"...came from putting sandbags in the trunk so to slow your car down to get in a lower bracket in eliminations and then, out come the sandbags! one of the reasons they went to pure bracket racing and if you break out of your bracket, youre disqualified as defacto proof of sandbagging, whether literal or figurative.

but at least back then, when caught, cheaters would confess and mea culpa but now...

what bothers me more today is this general lack of what we used to call sportsmanship. the one i most look to for getting famous for being an a$$ was the "intimidator"...until he got intimidated to a dirt nap. but it seems in everything from little league to major league, there is no more sportsmanship, just a bunch of jerks trying to best each other and then acting like jerks when things dont go their way. i was brought up different i guess.

well, I didn't mean it like that, they emphasize it now though and your right on that last part, I agree.

[Guest zebm1]

Actually, IMHO, Dale Sr. got that "dirt nap" because he wasn't driving to win. That waz tha 1st time, and unfortunately, tha last time I saw Dale Sr. drivin' as a Blocker car...and it cost him dearly. If yall remember, he had everybody else stoppered and at 190 mph in a Daytona corner, his extensive skills weren't enough, not nearly enough.....

[gasman]

  zebm1 said:

Actually, IMHO, Dale Sr. got that "dirt nap" because he wasn't driving to win. That waz tha 1st time, and unfortunately, tha last time I saw Dale Sr. drivin' as a Blocker car...and it cost him dearly. If yall remember, he had everybody else stoppered and at 190 mph in a Daytona corner, his extensive skills weren't enough, not nearly enough.....

very true. Earnhardt was doing what ever it took to get Waltrip or Dale Jr. that win. I never blamed Marlin for wrecking Sr. and I never will, it was'nt his fault. it just kinda happened.

[Phil Patterson]

I just wish they could go back to a more stock based racing, this funny car in a circle thing they've got goin on now means nothing to me.

I agree with everyone's assessment on the Earnhardt incident as well, if he'd been racing instead of laying back in the way, it would have never happened. I was never the biggest fan of Dale Sr, but hated seeing him go out that way.

[The Modeling Hermit]

Phil

I used to drive dirt track stock car back when I lived in Iowa. My racing ended after a really nasty wreck that left me in and out of hospitals for over two years. When I think of Dale's wreck; I can only think that it's the way he would have wanted to go. His last moments were spent having a very good time doing something that he enjoyed most in life. My wife got me to go to a few races with her, after my wreck, but I just can't handle the fence between me and the action. I can't hardly watch racing on television either. What really got me was one time when my children were watching a dirt track race, and there was one of the people that I used to race against. I wanted so bad to be out there again, and sharing dirt with him. Retirement for some of us is almost worse than dying. I know that what happened to Dale was bad, and there are many of us who do miss him, but I can't help but to feel some envy for him. I just can't express what it's like to have racing taken away from you, and yet have it there in front of you; taunting you. My intention is not to flame you, but to help those who've not raced to understand the death while racing aspect a little better. Even after what I've gone through after my wreck, and the injuries that will continue to manifest themselves to me the rest of my life, If I was given a chance I'd climb back in a roll cage in a heartbeat.

[Dragon7665]

Racing is Just too boring nowadays, and I change the channel as fast as I can, when I can(Unless it is F1 or Aussie V8 Supercars).... A few months before Dale Sr's last race, was about the time I gave up on "___Car"(Funny other letters seem more appropriate in there ), I just lost too much interest in them, when they became Cookie Cutters...

Used to be a Fan of Baja/WRC/ Paris-Dakar, but even they have gotten away from what they were....

Edited May 30, 2008 by Dragon7665

[Bernard Kron]

As someone who appreciates both the racing aspect of motorsports and the technical aspect, the thing that bothers me most is the drive towards standardized formulae in all areas of the sport. The successful and laudable drive towards enhanced safety cannot be accepted as an excuse for this unfortunate trend. The demise of real stock cars comes from a combination of the evolution of stock street automobiles into a form inappropriate for traditional speedway racing combined with a misbegotten attempt to enforce economy and equality on the track via the rulebook. With apologies to American football fans out there (all sports can provide interest and passion if you look for it) this has turned NASCAR racing into something akin to the arcane and contrived sports that are contemporary US stick and ball sports today. Sadly, Formula One has not escaped the same fate, IMHO. Technologically, at least, mediocrity and sameness are rapidly becoming the order of the day.

However, drivers are drivers and builders are builders, wherever you find them, and on any given day, in any given class, great, passionate driving skill and mechanical innovation are on display, and sometimes it actually makes its way past the rules book to create great competition on the track and in the paddock.

[Bainford]

Great motorsport and sportsmanship both exist today, but you have to go to the grass roots levels to find it. Once megabuck sponsership enters the picture, the joy quickly leaves. The great motorsports succumb to the percieved 'fairness' or even playing field demanded by those paying the big money, and the big money payers play to win, sportsmanship be damned. It's sad but true.

Equally sad is that grass roots motorsport no longer makes it to network TV (reserved for the big money payers), so unless these events take place in our local area, we never get to see it. Having said that, though, it may be fortunate that these events do not get major exposure, for fear of them becoming popular, and big money stepping in. Then it all goes away. It's a vicious circle, really. Many of the motorsports that a lot of true enthusiasts have turned their back on in recent years (NASCAR is a perfect example), are victims of their own success.

[The Modeling Hermit]

It seems like grass roots and television don't mix well. I remember when This Old House was a new show. It was aimed at guiding the common home owner through general 'do it yourself' home remodeling. Over the years the big companies noticed it's popularity, and soon it started to take on bigger projects, finally becoming full scale home rebuilds. It's now gone beyond what the average homeowner can do. It also generally includes factory tours that take up as much as half the show. In other words it's a big company showcase. The same is true for several car related shows. The point is that whenever we get a good 'grass roots' show for any market, the big companies have to hyjack it, and turn it into one big advertizement.

[Nick F40]

  Dragon7665 said:

Racing is Just too boring nowadays, and I change the channel as fast as I can, when I can(Unless it is F1 or Aussie V8 Supercars).... A few months before Dale Sr's last race, was about the time I gave up on "___Car"(Funny other letters seem more appropriate in there ), I just lost too much interest in them, when they became Cookie Cutters...

Used to be a Fan of Baja/WRC/ Paris-Dakar, but even they have gotten away from what they were....

Agree with ya and good choice in racing series but about the rally and stuff, yes, they changed, but they still go 120 MPH 6 inches away from trees and close to falling off cliffs and the drivers know how to DRIVE and got balls, if not...oh I don't know, they screw up and might die!

  Bainford said:

Great motorsport and sportsmanship both exist today, but you have to go to the grass roots levels to find it.

why do big sponserships have to steal the fun!

[gregbbear]

Hmm.....

Senna taking out Prost anyone? Or a couple of Schumacher vs Hill and vice versa? Anyone? The no launch control launch in France '94? and now, the Mclaren spying last year. Acid bathed body parts by all in the old/real Trans Am series. Smokey Yunick, etc etc...

S*it happens. I agree with the SCCA stuff, but NASA has some truly kick a** stuff too. American Iron baby!!!!! Personally (well on TV anyways), in the recent past I have seen some awesome racing. The ALMS Audi/ lmp vs Porsche/ lmp2 stuff, the ugly a** DP's put on a good show too. I really enjoyed Monaco last week. Ferrari is my team, but I don't always like their drivers. Poor Sutil getting taken out by Kimi. The rain really put the focus on strategy, and without traction control, car control. I do miss the Panoz cars in the ALMS though. Some of the stuff that Magnuson did was crazy! That ballsy pass on the corkscrew at Laguna Seca against the mighty Audi R8R! Good stuff is still out there, it just doesn't start with a NAS and end in a CAR.

Just my two cents.

Later,

Greg

Ps- it only takes one Mustang to beat a toyota, mine.

[samdiego]

This particular thread seems to be biased toward cars that turn. Grass roots parks right next to NASA at drag strips every weekend. From 18 second rental cars to 4 second money burners. When I was a kid, you could stand almost close enough to touch these cars as they went by. There are very few things that can rival the attack on the senses that standing in the starter's island between two launching fuelers belts you with. Or hanging at the big end as they blast by at 330+. It's even better than parking off the end of a runway waiting for jetliners to take off. (you can't do that anymore either)

[Bernard Kron]

  samdiego said:

This particular thread seems to be biased toward cars that turn. Grass roots parks right next to NASA at drag strips every weekend. From 18 second rental cars to 4 second money burners.

Good point Sam. I think, though, that at the high end in the pro ranks even drag racing has become more formulaic and less innovative and open than it used to be. But certainly straight line racing, perhaps like dirt track racing, has a long way to go before it becomes as ossified as F1, IndyCar and NASCAR all seem to have become. I agree that the drag strips offer more at the man/machine interface, even in the higher ranks.

B.

[samdiego]

I think the similarities stem from the quest for thousandths. There are probably a limited number of ways to be the fastest and as the qualities that enable this become more common knowledge they become the norm. And fast is where the money is.

[Bernard Kron]

  samdiego said:

I think the similarities stem from the quest for thousandths. There are probably a limited number of ways to be the fastest and as the qualities that enable this become more common knowledge they become the norm. And fast is where the money is.

Absolutely. Golden Ages never last very long. The managers of money and money itself breed risk aversion and reward normative behavior. Sanctioning organizations recognize this fairly early on and focus on legislating safety and economy. In this they are supported by the money managers who wish to protect there investment. Eventually, even if inadvertently, they conspire to stifle risk in all its forms, whether it's on the track or in the garage. In the end we have a world of one car formulas at the highest ranks and the real excitement and romance is often found at the grassroots, if only because there appears to be "less at stake". In this sense drag racing has a real advantage, in that any single entrant has very little track time, permitting a rich mix of lower ranks and touring professionals alike, something which is largely lacking, now, from big time speedway and road course racing.

[gregbbear]

Oops! Sorry about forgetting about all the awesome strait line stuff out there too! As a mustang guy I am partial to the Fun Ford Weekend, and NMRA stuff, but I know that is just a tip of the iceberg. I have heard a lot of criticism about pinks, but the all-out version shows a lot of weekend warrior types with a ton of diversity. Pretty cool in my book. All in all, cars going fast is a good thing. And building replicas of them (and all things automotive/truck etc) is a great thing. Whether I agree or not with anybody or even everybody on this forum, it is very, very cool in my book to be in a community of car fanatics, 1/1 or 1/24 etc. Thanks for keeping the faith.

Later,

Greg

[Nick F40]

  gregbbear said:

Hmm.....

Senna taking out Prost anyone? Or a couple of Schumacher vs Hill and vice versa? Anyone? The no launch control launch in France '94? and now, the Mclaren spying last year. Acid bathed body parts by all in the old/real Trans Am series. Smokey Yunick, etc etc...

S*it happens. I agree with the SCCA stuff, but NASA has some truly kick a** stuff too. American Iron baby!!!!! Personally (well on TV anyways), in the recent past I have seen some awesome racing. The ALMS Audi/ lmp vs Porsche/ lmp2 stuff, the ugly a** DP's put on a good show too. I really enjoyed Monaco last week. Ferrari is my team, but I don't always like their drivers. Poor Sutil getting taken out by Kimi. The rain really put the focus on strategy, and without traction control, car control. I do miss the Panoz cars in the ALMS though. Some of the stuff that Magnuson did was crazy! That ballsy pass on the corkscrew at Laguna Seca against the mighty Audi R8R! Good stuff is still out there, it just doesn't start with a NAS and end in a CAR.

Just my two cents.

Later,

Greg

Ps- it only takes one Mustang to beat a toyota, mine.

nice Mustang and I agree with you on the other racing series, LOVE THEM, and on NASA I love their racing and the Iron calss is good stuff, proving even more muscle cars can turn! Oh and Panoz is still in the game in ALMS in the GT2 class.

Yes, there was some alterations teams did, but it wasn't as point your finger and so anal about things as we are today. Rules are so controlling, you can't do anything. It isn't driver anymore. As I heard from a British car show, they went to drive a NANSCAR car and he even said it and so do I, the NANSCAR cars are all the same, the body's are the same considering they use the same body molding, just maybe a slight altercation of the nose for the Charger but no more with the Avenger, they use the same moldings and the only difference is the engine, it is Toyota, Chevy, Ford, Dodge, which even then the parts are made the same so there is no cheating. We need more manufacturs and with the cars being pretty much the same, name one stock part on the car? Now as you mentioned above about you seeing some of the best racing on TV, from my favorite racing series, you notice you don't hear that much from NANSCAR or really any American mtor racing. I love Baja as that is back to what racing was, and back to the roots and drivers DRIVE. But ALMS and the LeMans series are real, they have manufacturs competing against each other, like it should be and like it was. They have drivers that drive and compete against each other, rally drivers are the impitomy of it all, they drive cars 120 mph by trees no more than a foot away and they make a wrong move, they are dead, even today's rally cars and rally competition, talk about roots racing, real, raw, and pride. Always was and always will. People say, ohh, you should try to race a car for 4 hours close to a wall and other drivers and survive uhhhh yeeaah, ever hear about the 24 Hours of LeMans you have to race and survive for 24 hours running upwards of 200MPH and having to stay awake. Rally, you have to navigate through a road that is just wide enough for your car and have to listen to your navigator and focus on driving and not killing each other and the reasons I stated above. Back in the 80's rally cars had no traction control, launch control, stability control, weighed less 1200 kg, and had 350 to some cars had over 600hp, yeah your right, that isn't racing......talent much?

  samdiego said:

This particular thread seems to be biased toward cars that turn. Grass roots parks right next to NASA at drag strips every weekend. From 18 second rental cars to 4 second money burners. When I was a kid, you could stand almost close enough to touch these cars as they went by. There are very few things that can rival the attack on the senses that standing in the starter's island between two launching fuelers belts you with. Or hanging at the big end as they blast by at 330+. It's even better than parking off the end of a runway waiting for jetliners to take off. (you can't do that anymore either)

don't get me wrong, I LOVE drag racing, as I love Pro Mods, Super Stock, Gassers, AWBs, and even Pro Stock, but even that is getting restricted too. You can't do the stuff you said anymore! And the cars, these engines are amazing, but I see NO resemblence of a Mustang or Charger or whatever "cars" they use, at least the ones from the 60's and 70's LOOKED like the actual car a bit. To me, the Funny cars and Top Fuel are boring to me, to see them in real life and the sound and power is phenominal but three seconds and your done is nothing to me, the 6 second passes are better and seems it takes more skill: shifting, throttle, off the line, chute, etc. Once again, nothing like what it used to be.

Instead of worrying about investment worry about what the sport is called, MOTOR RACING, not sponser racing..not company racing...no..AUTO RACING, the cars and drivers. I guess what I'm getting back is why can't we have competition between manufacturs, Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Toyota, Buick, Pontiac, Nissan, build a car to compete against in NANSCAR that is ACTUALLY based on a Ford, prove yourself, Nissan and GMC in Crafstman truck, heck even they look like the actual truck a bit. Why can't we make a Funny car that is like they did in the 60's and 70's? Heck even Pro Stock. If safety is a big problem today nowadays how come they survived back then with out all the restricting gear and other in car stuff. Get a helmet, suit and gloves and thats it! I do agree with the safety precautions as the main deaths in auto racing was back in the real and raw days of racing as we can keep more drivers safe and race more but why does that have to be so tied in with rules?

Edited June 1, 2008 by Nick F40

[Guest zebm1]

Actually Nick, a lot more drivers died back in tha so-called "good old days", you just didn't hear about it. Especially on tha local Tracks....I know of Local Tracks that got Shut Down as soon as a Driver got killed. We used to have Hydro-plane boat races in Tampa....perfect place for it....upper Old Tampa bay.....then tha Miss Budwiser crashed and tha driver got killed....no more hydro racing. This was in tha Allison engine days...... tha beginning of tha end of Golden Gate Speedway was after a modified's throttle got stuck, guy went through tha 1st turn fence, tha track wall and ended up in tha Parking Lot.....Dead....after almost 30 plus years of racing. I've seen a lot of drivers die in racing.....more survive now than they did "Back in tha Day."

[Nick F40]

  zebm1 said:

Actually Nick, a lot more drivers died back in tha so-called "good old days", you just didn't hear about it. Especially on tha local Tracks....I know of Local Tracks that got Shut Down as soon as a Driver got killed.

just like Group B.

[Nick F40]

Acutally, not only NASCAR drivers, but drivers from the racing series......pit them in one of these, see how good and if they can really drive.

and does it not look like a Peugeot 405?

how many people know left foot braking, heel toe, and flat shifting?

[Draggon]

I went to a lot of races in the 60's and 70's and I agree, its JUST NOT the same. I only watch NASCAR because its better than some of the alternatives on TV. Sometimes the cautions are silly..."debris"?? Oh, yea, a chunk of rubber is in the groove, so we gotta go clean it up! Way back when, "debris" was what the drivers had to avoid in order to win. Recently I saw a clip of Awesomebill from Dawsonville on the TV, prob in the late 80's, powersliding around the Outside of a turn and into the lead. I guess today NASCAR would penalize Bill for "aggresive driving" Could anyone imagine the likes of todays current drivers doing that, except for Tony Stewart, Kasey Kahne, and a select few? Oh yea, and Robby Gordon. He'd probably feel more comfortable sideways. And Schrader, he's been there done that.

Is it just me, or does it seem that NASCAR is "rigged"?