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Vietnam Vet67

Italian chassis maker Dallara to build Gen 7 chassis for NASCAR

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25 minutes ago, Seann Anderson said:

This is Hailie's 2nd full year driving stock cars. Like you Mark, she's great for the sport and hopefully introduces more people into it too. She'll be around for some time as long as she keeps on performing as she is right now. Here is a link to her results: https://www.racing-reference.info/driver/Hailie_Deegan

The Xfinity series on down is nothing but a rental series. There are still several full-time teams, but a majority of the team owners have gone to a rental model. It's become incredibly hard for the teams to chase down marketing partners. 

Based on what Corey LaJoie said in his podcast on the Gen7, there is going to be a spending cap of $12-14mil. He said through third party auditors they can control the spending. The bodies will be made of Kevlar, the green houses will be made of carbon fiber. 18 inch aluminum wheels with a wider width to accommodate for the shorter sidewall on the tires. One lug nut wheels is the rumor. Rack and pinion steering. Transaxle rear end with independent rear suspension. Like the dirt track teams, it appears that they are trying to get more of the components from vendors as opposed to doing it in house. Which should save ALOT of money. My biggest concern in that quite a few folks will be losing their jobs through the automation of the components.

Thanks Seann. I would like to see things get cheaper and a spec engine if it would allow the drivers talent to show through. Right now, unless your employed by the 3 or 4 major teams, you have no chance to win or even run up front.

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12 minutes ago, MarkJ said:

Thanks Seann. I would like to see things get cheaper and a spec engine if it would allow the drivers talent to show through. Right now, unless your employed by the 3 or 4 major teams, you have no chance to win or even run up front.

I do too Mark. I know that some people get caught up in the manufacturers engines, etc. I understand that. Dad was Ford blue 24/7, however I just want to see outstanding racing on shorter tracks. If that includes an engine and other components in spec form, let's do it. I always thought that having different compound tires like F1 would be a fun twist. 

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It will be interesting to see how the spending cap works.  There are a number of drivers who make more than the cap. 

The manufacturers have been lobbying for a hybrid type of system for this generation of car.  Mike Helton said that if this is the way they go the chassis will require significant modifications. 

The smaller teams have been lobbying for a spending cap with the principal or Richard Petty Motorsports leading the discussions.

The sport is changing, but it has to change.  The simple fact of the matter is that the money is not there anymore and even the big teams are being pinched.  If they take the construction of many of the parts out of the race shops, it will make the sport cheaper.  A number of people will lose their jobs.  This is not good, but it can be argued that the teams should not been permitted to get as big as they did in the first place.

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54 minutes ago, Jim N said:

It will be interesting to see how the spending cap works.  There are a number of drivers who make more than the cap. 

The manufacturers have been lobbying for a hybrid type of system for this generation of car.  Mike Helton said that if this is the way they go the chassis will require significant modifications. 

The smaller teams have been lobbying for a spending cap with the principal or Richard Petty Motorsports leading the discussions.

The sport is changing, but it has to change.  The simple fact of the matter is that the money is not there anymore and even the big teams are being pinched.  If they take the construction of many of the parts out of the race shops, it will make the sport cheaper.  A number of people will lose their jobs.  This is not good, but it can be argued that the teams should not been permitted to get as big as they did in the first place.

No question Jim. All motorsports needs major reform.

I come from the dirt late model industry. I managed the Georgia Boot program w/Bowyer for three years and worked with Rocket Chassis for nearly 2 years. The cost is driving the weekend warriors out of the sport in droves. Dirt late model fields have dropped on avg by 50% since 2008. I remember car counts of nearly 200 at Eldora for the Dream and World 100. Now it’s usually 65-80. 

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so many things have to come together for any deal to be made. a common plate for the chassis is really a good idea, but differences from one manufacturer to the next (unlike indy car) and what the chassis will be used for probably mean that 3 or 4 different chassis will have to be designed, (short, intermediate, super speedway and road course chassis are all different in design).  common core engines won't fly. manufacturers will fight against that....

again, this is all supposition based on what has been "heard" floating around.  NASCAR has done a lot to improve racing, specially when it comes to safety....and really, I have to ask...what difference does it make about who builds or doesn't build the chassis....its the body itself that defines Ford, Chevy or Toyota....I do agree that it needs to go back to a more "stock" appearing body versus the slab side....but then going backwards will only increase the negative safety that today's race cars have....you can't use a unibody that current production models have on a super speedway at 200MPH....

 

Just my opinion!!

Edited by Mikey56

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I really don't want to start a fight over this, but this generation of cars is closest to their stock counterparts that in a long time.  Below is a schematic for the Camaro and you will see that the race version differs, but not that significantly from the street car.  The race car is the lighter shade of blue.  I have seen a similar schematic for the Toyotas but cannot find it.

image.png.7127bbdce4e71cd69449ddc7b321194b.png

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I worked at Dodge Motorsports for 42 years (1966 to 2007) and was involved in NASCAR/NHRA/Viper engine development during that time. When we got back into NASCAR in 2001 we had to have enough parts to supply each team with 10 cars. That included short track, intermediate track, super speedway and test cars. We had 10 Cup teams at the time so that was parts for 100 cars. If Dallara becomes the one and only supplier for NASCAR that is about 400 cars (figure 40 teams) right out of the chute. That is a major undertaking for anybody, I don't care how much experience you. And they all have to be identical because NASCAR will be watching very carefully to make sure they are all the same. And on top of that there will be major layoffs for all the teams................that will hurt a lot of people.

As far as a spec engine in Cup, NO manufacturer is going to run someone else's engine in their car !!!!! This came up around 2005 or so and everybody said absolutely not.

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2 hours ago, Jim N said:

I really don't want to start a fight over this, but this generation of cars is closest to their stock counterparts that in a long time.  Below is a schematic for the Camaro and you will see that the race version differs, but not that significantly from the street car.  The race car is the lighter shade of blue.  I have seen a similar schematic for the Toyotas but cannot find it.

image.png.7127bbdce4e71cd69449ddc7b321194b.png

I agree !

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5 hours ago, Mikey56 said:

so many things have to come together for any deal to be made. a common plate for the chassis is really a good idea, but differences from one manufacturer to the next (unlike indy car) and what the chassis will be used for probably mean that 3 or 4 different chassis will have to be designed, (short, intermediate, super speedway and road course chassis are all different in design).  common core engines won't fly. manufacturers will fight against that....

again, this is all supposition based on what has been "heard" floating around.  NASCAR has done a lot to improve racing, specially when it comes to safety....and really, I have to ask...what difference does it make about who builds or doesn't build the chassis....its the body itself that defines Ford, Chevy or Toyota....I do agree that it needs to go back to a more "stock" appearing body versus the slab side....but then going backwards will only increase the negative safety that today's race cars have....you can't use a unibody that current production models have on a super speedway at 200MPH....

 

Just my opinion!!

Yep!

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22 hours ago, Vietnam Vet67 said:

I worked at Dodge Motorsports for 42 years (1966 to 2007) and was involved in NASCAR/NHRA/Viper engine development during that time. When we got back into NASCAR in 2001 we had to have enough parts to supply each team with 10 cars. That included short track, intermediate track, super speedway and test cars. We had 10 Cup teams at the time so that was parts for 100 cars. If Dallara becomes the one and only supplier for NASCAR that is about 400 cars (figure 40 teams) right out of the chute. That is a major undertaking for anybody, I don't care how much experience you. And they all have to be identical because NASCAR will be watching very carefully to make sure they are all the same. And on top of that there will be major layoffs for all the teams................that will hurt a lot of people.

As far as a spec engine in Cup, NO manufacturer is going to run someone else's engine in their car !!!!! This came up around 2005 or so and everybody said absolutely not.

Ed, you are correct. This will be a very big project.  Another consideration is that the teams have perfected the construction of a racing chassis.  They will only use metal from the same production lots and they have exacting construction specs and techniques, so that one chassis build is nearly identical to another.  If the chassis supplier cannot meet these standards, there will be a revolt among the teams.

In the early 2010's the manufacturers had a "come to Jesus" meeting with Brian France and they laid down the law.  The manufacturers will only participate in NASCAR if they run the cars they want with their engines.  They will work with NASCAR to make sure the competition is fair. But the days of France, Sr. and France Jr, pitting the manufacturers against each other, so the France's could do what they pleased were over.  

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I follow several racing series and I don't think going further away from what the cars are supposed to be is the solution to the problem with the diminishing interest for the sport, they have to take a step or two back to the origins, the public has to recognize the cars and they should be more like the ones you can buy from the showroom floor.
Of course you can't go back on safety, that's crucial, but leave the exotic materials out of it as much as possible to keep the costs down...and for gods sake, don't even think of going the hybrid way if you want to cut the costs for the teams, it's expensive enough as it is without that.
You only have to look at F1, the hybrid power units they use now are so expensive to develop and manitain that there are only 4 manufacturers who supplies the power units for all 20 cars from the 10 teams in F1 (Mercedes 6 cars, Ferrari 6, Honda 4 and Renault 4), and even tho' there has been interests from other manufacturers it's too expensive to develop a competitive power unit and get something back out of it, so there will most likely be no more than the 4 that's in right now as long as the regulations are as they are.
The engines they have now in NASCAR is not on the option list for any street going car, they are specially developed for NASCAR racing and shares nothing with the production engines except that they are V8's, that's maybe where you could cut costs, go back to base the racing engines in NASCAR on regular production engines instead of the special engines they use today, I don't know why they allowed these special engines in the first place, the old rule was that the engines used in NASCAR racing had to be production engines available to the public in regular cars.
The bodies they have in NASCAR today looks quite like the street going counterparts...but...they are both wider and longer that the street car, just take a look on the Pace Car if it's a Camry, Camaro or Mustang and you see what I mean...at least the Camry looks very tiny compared with the NASCAR racing version.
And please...don't go to 18 inch wheels with center nuts, if they do that they could allow air jacks as well and allow 4 guys over the wall with an air gun each and a pressurized fueling rig so a pit stop takes 3 seconds...boring...the pit stops is interesting as it is with 5 lugnuts per wheel and I like the look of the 15 inch wheels...and they have worked so far so why shouldn't they do that in the future.
NASCAR isn't the only sanctioning body with diminishing interest, NHRA have the same problem with the Pro Stock class, both from competitors and public, boring cokie cutter cars that doesn't look like the street car they are supposed to be and mostly all with the same engines (not production engines)...on the other hand the Factory Stock and Factory Super Stock classes are growing rapidly and has gained lots of interest...I wonder why. :rolleyes:

Edited by Force

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I haven't heard anything about the center nut style rims for nascar....I don't think they will go that way.  my opinion is based on what the series has done historically....the rules as they are is that you have to have 5 lugs and they must be tight. going to a center lug (ala indy car and F-1) would speed up the pit stops.  going to a center lug would increase the risk as I think it would create a very unsafe pit road. 

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On 9/4/2019 at 2:30 PM, Vietnam Vet67 said:

 

As far as a spec engine in Cup, NO manufacturer is going to run someone else's engine in their car !!!!! This came up around 2005 or so and everybody said absolutely not.

Thanks for confirming my earlier post.

I too worked in NASCAR from the 1980's until late 1990's. I don't care if they go to a spec motor....it worked so well for ASA right??? Remember ASA?? Started getting TV coverage, model kits created....folks knew the drivers and tracks......now I don't know if they are still around....and don't care as all the cars run the same Chevy engine. NASCAR can go spec chassis and engine and be lucky to draw 500 folks to a race. IMHO ONLY.

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1 hour ago, Mikey56 said:

I haven't heard anything about the center nut style rims for nascar....I don't think they will go that way.  my opinion is based on what the series has done historically....the rules as they are is that you have to have 5 lugs and they must be tight. going to a center lug (ala indy car and F-1) would speed up the pit stops.  going to a center lug would increase the risk as I think it would create a very unsafe pit road. 

Okay, you had me till you said it would create an unsafe pit road. Getting the crews on and off pit road faster gives them less time out there to get hit. Also  it evens the playing field more because its a lot easier to do one nut then 5. I think they need to stick with a Jackman though. Adding hydraulics for jacking would not make the cars cheaper.

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1 hour ago, Dave Van said:

Thanks for confirming my earlier post.

I too worked in NASCAR from the 1980's until late 1990's. I don't care if they go to a spec motor....it worked so well for ASA right??? Remember ASA?? Started getting TV coverage, model kits created....folks knew the drivers and tracks......now I don't know if they are still around....and don't care as all the cars run the same Chevy engine. NASCAR can go spec chassis and engine and be lucky to draw 500 folks to a race. IMHO ONLY.

Nascar is so messed up now already, I don't think adding spec motors would be the final nail in their coffin.  On a recent truck broadcast, one of the coverage guys said that the trucks were using spec motors.  Is this true? Maybe that would explain why Ross Chastain runs up front in every truck  race. That guy can wheel a race car  errrr …. truck.

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Truck series has a spec engine available....not required...yet. Like I said.....go to a spec engine in Cup.....if that's the way to save the series......but Ford and Toyota will bail day one.....a ll Camaro seies...COOL......oh wait.... the Camaro is bailing too??????

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NASCAR is basically running a spec engine this year.  The horsepower in all three engine makes is capped at 500 - 550 horsepower.  The days of Robert Yates and other engine gurus getting top power out of their engines is over for the foreseeable future.

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Ilmor Engineering does the spec NT1 engine for the truck series.
As far as I know Roush-Yates is the only producer of Ford FR-9 engines for both Cup and Xfinity series, there are two engine programs with Hendricks and Childress for the Chevy R07 engines and TRD does the Toyota engines for both series, so they are still different manufacturers but they are very close to be spec engines by todays rules.

As I said in my earlier post, I don't believe going even further away from stock is the solution to get the interest back for the sport, if they go back more to the roots they may regain interest again...and if one or two manufacturers jump ship the series will for sure diminish even more and maybe die completely.
Except for the chassis development for the Gen 7 I have even heard of thoughts about going to turbo charged V6 engines in Cup and there has even been talk about hybrid...yes it's "broken" but I'm not sure that's the fix and these things will definately not be any cheaper as costs is a big factor, it's very few Cup races with full 40 car fields nowadays.
Most racing series has their golden days but will sooner or later get out of hand as the rules change and lightens up, and if it gets too far the public loose interest and the series diminish.

Edited by Force

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19 hours ago, Vietnam Vet67 said:

ARCA  is running a spec engine too.............

And having trouble getting full fields and full time teams. They are now the discount try out series. 

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18 hours ago, Jim N said:

NASCAR is basically running a spec engine this year.  The horsepower in all three engine makes is capped at 500 - 550 horsepower.  The days of Robert Yates and other engine gurus getting top power out of their engines is over for the foreseeable future.

Engine builders and manufactures can still make a difference. A sealed spec engine is still not the answer IMHO ONLY.....

A modern engine builder can still tune with balance, weight, reliability. 

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I have a lot of questions about the continued viability and relevance of NASCAR in our rapidly-evolving-to-be-testosterone-free world.

When you see the American automobile industry all but giving up on building cars, and GM's apparent intention to get away from consumer vehicles completely (in favor of Uber-esque on-call "transportation-modules" if CEO Mary Barra's predictions carry any weight)...what's left to race?

In the short term, maybe Challengers, Mustangs, and Camaros. And if they were stock-platform derived (which they easily can be...monocoque chassis are hardly required for roundy-round), there might be a little more interest. But I really don't know. NASCAR seems to appeal to fans of drivers, not cars, and I frankly can't name one driver in the whole of that arm of the sport...so I'm hardly an "expert" on what would get butts in the stands.

In the long term, I really don't see a bunch of Prius drivers, Uber-users, and passive self-driving-vehicle passengers following ANY kind of racing. After all...it goes against the "everyone's a winner" and competition-is-bad doctrines we're having hammered down our throats every day.

 

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6 hours ago, Force said:

Ilmor Engineering does the spec NT1 engine for the truck series.
As far as I know Roush-Yates is the only producer of Ford FR-9 engines for both Cup and Xfinity series, there are two engine programs with Hendricks and Childress for the Chevy R07 engines and TRD does the Toyota engines for both series, so they are still different manufacturers but they are very close to be spec engines by todays rules.

As I said in my earlier post, I don't believe going even further away from stock is the solution to get the interest back for the sport, if they go back more to the roots they may regain interest again...and if one or two manufacturers jump ship the series will for sure diminish even more and maybe die completely.
Except for the chassis development for the Gen 7 I have even heard of thoughts about going to turbo charged V6 engines in Cup and there has even been talk about hybrid...yes it's "broken" but I'm not sure that's the fix and these things will definately not be any cheaper as costs is a big factor, it's very few Cup races with full 40 car fields nowadays.
Most racing series has their golden days but will sooner or later get out of hand as the rules change and lightens up, and if it gets too far the public loose interest and the series diminish.

Man I hope they don't go to v6 engines. They sound horrible. I remember when they were in the busch series. You wanted to cover your ears. not from the noise but the horrible sound they were emitting. When a new mustang or camaro goes by  my house in my  neighborhood, that the guy has put loud exhausts on, its like why dude? That sounds like kaka.

Edited by MarkJ

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47 minutes ago, MarkJ said:

...When a new (V6) mustang or camaro goes by  my house in my  neighborhood, that the guy has put loud exhausts on, its like why dude? That sounds like kaka.

Agreed 99%. Every now and then, I hear one with exhaust tuning that actually sounds good...but the vast majority of them sound like enraged garden tractors.

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