my email dialogue with a foreign decal firm

[Plumcrazy Preston]

I've done some studying over the past few weeks and have concluded that ALPS thermal waterslide decals are the highest quality ones available for hobbyists but this German,  Carsten Glaubitz, of DecalPrint.de seems to disagree:

 

Me: 

Hello, Mr.  Carsten Glaubitz:

 

David from America here.

 

 

I was referred to you by camaro69 at a scale model car forum at the following web link: Who can print me truly factory-quality waterslide decals?

 

Who can print me truly factory-quality waterslide decals?

 

He says you might be able to help me with making me a custom order for waterslide decals for model cars and airplanes.

 

I have a few questions.

 

 

1. what kind of printer do you use for waterslide decals?: color laser, ALPS thermal, inkjet, other? 

2. does my vector file need to be supplied with a color background or does the background need to be transparent? 

3. how does a customer in the USA pay you?: PayPal, credit card, other method? 

 

My artwork file will be 8"x10". The decal sheet when printed should be the same size. The three spot colors to be printed are black, white and silver. I have attached a PDF of my artwork design for you to review. The background color in my artwork is purple and is not to be printed. I am considering having a 3rd party rework this file in vector to meet your specifications for printing. Is there sufficient margin in my artwork for the printer? The attached PDF is for your visual review and not for printing purposes. Please tell you what you think of my artwork and if you could possibly help me. 

 

Thank you. 

 

 

Sincerely,

David

Lawton, Oklahoma, USA

 

 

[Plumcrazy Preston]

Carsten:

Hi David:

1. Roland VS420 Solvent inkjet on 15micron transparent waterslide foil
2. all colours except black are undercoated with white automatically
2. PayPal accepted, 7,50EUR shipping costs as reg. letter

BUT

All what I see in your file are bitmaps. Here are our file rules:

Our standards for printable files---------------------------
Fileformat CDR Version 2019 or lower, PDF from AI, EPS from AI
- all objects on ONE layer, colour layer separation is only supported by us
- CMYK Colour Code for all objects needed
- Special Codes:
withe = C0 M0 Y0 K10
silver = C0 M0 Y0 K30
gold = C0 M20 Y60 K20
BEFORE you send us the file, take care that all used fonts converted to curves!
------------------------------------------------------------------------

We are closed for this year. Please let's continue this conversation next year.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Kind regards

Carsten Glaubitz

DecalPrint.de

 

[Plumcrazy Preston]

Me:

Carsten:

 

 

Thank you very much for your reply. I found another decal printing firm now open for business who uses ALPS thermal printer technology and Pantone spot colors. I use yet another party to convert my BMP artwork to vector form then deliver the finished file in PDF. Text objects are treated like any other art objects during the conversion process. I appreciate your reply just the same. Good luck. Hope its a nicer new year. 

 

 

Sincerely,

David

 

[Plumcrazy Preston]

Carsten:

 

Good Luck David,

ALPS  tec is dead since 2008. We have printed on APLS until 2012 and owned 16 printers.
In few weeks we have 2021.
Everyone who prints actually on ALPS is a private hobbyist who prints something from time to time.
We have over 6000 customers and print 10 quartermeters per week.
Most of the time, I always see all the customers again after they have waste their money  to somewhere else.

For our businness that was the best year ever. All people who siiting bored at home spent a lot of money for decals.
But yes, we hope we can go outsinde next year and can have a real vacation.


Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Kind regards

Carsten Glaubitz

DecalPrint.de
 

[Plumcrazy Preston]

ALPS is dead.

 

What do you think? I've been lead to believe that inkjet is an inferior form of decal printing and that color laser printing is the second best to ALPS. 

[Plumcrazy Preston]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MicroDry

 

I gather only ALPS thermal tec can print WHITE objects. Since ALPS printer production shut down in Japan a number of years ago one might think somebody else would have jumped on the bandwagon already and made similar products. Are any companies now making clones of these ALPS printers? Since hobbyists demand ALPS tec so badly, why did this company quit ALPS printers? 

[Chuck Most]

You realize the hobby market is a niche market, right? Dumping money into technology that only benefits a few thousand people worldwide doesn't seem like a wise idea, never mind if it's a superior way to do it.

[CabDriver]

ALPs printers are maybe 16" wide (at least, the one I had) and use dry ink applied from a cartridge - almost like those correction tape dispensers you can get at Staples.  They also run off a serial port and can be difficult to get to run on modern operating systems.  Not impossible, but you need to know how to get them to work.  As such, a smart decal printer will be using something more modern where you can get supplies off the shelf and run on any recent-ish laptop or desktop machine.

That Roland printer is a commercial grade machine that sits about 5' wide and 4' high and costs anywhere up to $15k when new.  It uses solvent ink, which is actually closer to paint in terms of how it works than regular ink...it definitely can print white, and do a nice job of it.  Ditto silver, ditto gold.  Ditto, actually, any color you can get a Pantone code for or a color match for - the machine will figure out the colors for you if they're in the document you supply the printer, but you can also have custom ink mixed to match about any color imaginable and have it use that instead. 

I have used both, and the Roland machine will definitely be able to provide what you need, assuming you can arrange for the art to be in the correct format.  A bitmap, Microsoft Paint file or anything other than a vector will NOT work for this machine, because of the way the Roland software prints. 

[Plumcrazy Preston]

Ok, Roland is the state of the art decal printer for 2020 and beyond today. How do Roland-printed decals compare in crispness and durability with ALPS printed ones?  Will Roland print any Pantone without dithering? 

Josh Muma at Bedlam Creations quoted me $57 to print a single 8" x 13" decal sheet on his "highly-praised" ALPS machine and that his laser decals were of a lower quality and durability. He says he doesn't use any inkjet technology because people can do that at home it can't print white. Well, my HP Officejet has no white ink: it's CMYK. I could print my decals at home if I were to use them on a model painted yellow since I would use dark colors (black, gold, navy blue) for that purpose. I would still need a 3rd party for the vector rework. 

Here is a wiki on ALPS:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MicroDry

Edited December 14, 2020 by Plumcrazy Preston

[peteski]

4 hours ago, Plumcrazy Preston said:

ALPS is dead.

 

What do you think? I've been lead to believe that inkjet is an inferior form of decal printing and that color laser printing is the second best to ALPS. 

Dead?  Well, tell that to about 4000 Alps users on the Alps group in groups.io (of which I'm one of the owner/moderators).  It is dead as far as no more printers are being produced, but still quite alive as far as the user-base and supplies go.  It is a consumer-grade printer, but it was (and still is) used by small commercial decal manufacturers (Kadee is one of them).  They simply refused to do your decal, but they still custom print decals.

Alps MicroDry printers really are best suited for hobbyists though. I love mine, and the fact that I can custom-print even the smallest one-off decal right in my workshop.

As far as the printer mentioned by the person in Germany, that is a fairly new and current technology.  That type of printing technology is used by many model manufacturers to print decoration directly on the model. But  decals an also be made.  But one problem can be that the inks used go on in rather thick and stiff layers, so they cannot be made to conform to uneven model surface, even using decal setting solutions.  Also, since they are CYMK printers (not spot color), there will be a dot pattern visible, although much finer than the "fishnet" you saw on those Alps-printed decals.

Tichy Train Group uses that type of printer for their decals and model signs. They used to offer custom decal service - not sure if they still do.  But those decals were thick and difficult to use.

And if you haven't noticed a trend yet: decal manufacturers want vector-based artwork.

Edited December 14, 2020 by peteski

[CabDriver]

21 minutes ago, peteski said:

Also, since they are CYMK printers (not spot color), there will be a dot pattern visible, although much finer than the "fishnet" you saw on those Alps-printed decals.

The model that one particular vendor mentioned can run custom mixed ink, so you actually wouldn't get any dot pattern of mixing of colors assuming you get the right color ink from the get-go and tell the machine to run that color.  Just the same as buying the right color paint to paint something!  The Roland Color Library system would almost certainly match any color that one had a Pantone code for though

I haven't really noticed the print on these solvent ink Rolands to be any thicker than any other method of printing - although your mileage may vary depending on the inks used, ink build settings etc. 

[peteski]

If they are willing to custom blend inks for one-off job, that would be a game changer.  I suspect then that have to flush the ink from the ink path and the  nozzle between print jobs.  I was thinking more of the ink jets that UV-Curable CYMK inks with white clear ink as an option.  Those types of printers are used by companies such as Micro-Trains to print directly on the models.  Those excel at factory-applied weathering and graffiti, but they are often used to print other decorations on the car sides.

[CabDriver]

Yeah, I get it - much like the Tampo printing you see on a Hot Wheels.  And yes, exactly that, you need to do some thorough cleaning on ANY machine or be prepared to switch parts if you're switching out colors and getting away from the standard CMYK setup.  Totally doable though. 

The Pantone matching in Roland's Versaworks works great for almost all but the pickiest client with the hardest to match color - there's some shades that are just hard to match 100% without mixing something from scratch.  Some greens and oranges, for example, or certain purple tones - but 99.99% of the time you'll be able to get really close on these new machines.

A lot of the design work I do for bigger clients requires the minimum thickness of ink to be applied to whatever the surface is, and usually to very specific color requirements - can be challenging! 

[peteski]

3 minutes ago, CabDriver said:

A lot of the design work I do for bigger clients requires the minimum thickness of ink to be applied to whatever the surface is, and usually to very specific color requirements - can be challenging! 

Ah Jim, so that means you actually know what you are talking about - very refreshing and educational. 

[CabDriver]

18 minutes ago, peteski said:

Ah Jim, so that means you actually know what you are talking about - very refreshing and educational. 

I never get to talk about this stuff on here because it's usually not relevant to the discussion   My ears (eyes) perked up when I saw mention of that Roland VS tho!  

Most of what I do (without giving too much away or boring anyone) involves nationwide rebranding for large companies - and they typically want the, say, green color on their signs to look the same as the green on their vehicles to look the same as the green on their business cards. 

Can be a challenge making, say, a lit up sign displayed 40 feet up in the air look the exact right shade of green all day long regardless of light levels, illuminate correctly (which is where printing ultra-thin layers of ink often comes in) and be designed in such a way that it's actually feasible to make it.  Ditto, doing an entire rebrand for a company with 5000 vehicles where they want the color of the driver's shirts to match the glossy paint on the truck to match the area manager's business cards. 

I'm much more involved in the design side of this stuff, but I have to know a bit of everything to make sure I can actually make a color palette work across a bunch of mediums - plastic bags, shirts, a truck, a billboard sign, painted fixtures at a building....or even a sheet of decals

Edited December 14, 2020 by CabDriver

[Plumcrazy Preston]

Since I am getting only spot colors in Pantones done this time from Bedlam, I expect no noticeable textured patterns, just pure solid colors as if the art objects were painted on. 

 

The way you get neat art on models and vehicles in fussy colors in reality is by actually using paint mixed in special colors .  I don't know of any company that stamps custom stencils for painting letters, numbers and markings on scale models. 

 

It would be neat if color decals could be printed photographically the way a Nikon camera prints a picture on 35mm film.  How about if artwork could be photographed directly onto a model body? The model would have to be covered with special color photographic chemicals in a dark room and be exposed to light projected onto it and developed just like prints. Think of all the colors a Kodak Instamatic camera used to render. Have any photographic computer printers been developed? 

[peteski]

Sounds like you have an interesting job Jim.  I agree that knowing the entire process (not just the design part) is vital for getting the best results.  Same goes  for modeling. I don't just use paints and glues - I educate myself about their chemistry.  Not to the most minute details - just the overall understanding what they contain and how they work. Makes me a better modeler.

[peteski]

9 minutes ago, Plumcrazy Preston said:

The way you get neat art on models and vehicles in fussy colors in reality is by actually using paint mixed in special colors .  I don't know of any company that stamps custom stencils for painting letters, numbers and markings on scale models.

Look up Tampo printing. It is an old technology which is still used quite a bit today. Even on Hot Wheels cars.  It is slowly being supplemented and sometimes replaced by ink-jet printing directly to substrate.

If you have spare 6 minutes, watch the video below. It shows how a model boxcar is made - from design to final model. Tampo printing is shown as a paint of its decorating process. That process is shown at the 2:50 mark, if you are in a rush,

 

Edited December 15, 2020 by peteski

[Plumcrazy Preston]

2 hours ago, peteski said:

Look up Tampo printing. It is an old technology which is still used quite a bit today. Even on Hot Wheels cars.  It is slowly being supplemented and sometimes replaced by ink-jet printing directly to substrate.

If you have spare 6 minutes, watch the video below. It shows how a model boxcar is made - from design to final model. Tampo printing is shown as a paint of its decorating process. That process is shown at the 2:50 mark, if you are in a rush,

 

Very impressive. The model train factory looks like it has millions of dollars in equipment.  How they tool up to mold each and every scale part is mind boggling. I see some work with a camera was done. 

[CabDriver]

2 hours ago, peteski said:

Sounds like you have an interesting job Jim.  I agree that knowing the entire process (not just the design part) is vital for getting the best results.  Same goes  for modeling. I don't just use paints and glues - I educate myself about their chemistry.  Not to the most minute details - just the overall understanding what they contain and how they work. Makes me a better modeler.

Absolutely!  And actually, the weird mix of skills that helps me with my job actually came mostly FROM modelling!  
 

Working with architectural and engineering plans I use scaling every day, knowing how to paint is useful, knowing how to cut vinyl and some knowledge of glues and soldering, LEDs, all kinds of stuff - and on the best days I get to design something in scale and see it blown up to real life size!  The ultimate modeller’s job! ?

[peteski]

43 minutes ago, CabDriver said:

Working with architectural and engineering plans I use scaling every day, knowing how to paint is useful, knowing how to cut vinyl and some knowledge of glues and soldering, LEDs, all kinds of stuff - and on the best days I get to design something in scale and see it blown up to real life size!  The ultimate modeller’s job! ?

That sounds like a job I would really enjoy!  Nice!

[Plumcrazy Preston]

I had Josh Muma, from Bedlam Creations online, print me a decal sheet on a second new order and it came out sloppy too! 

 

It took him about a month to get this order shipped to me and once again I'm disappointed with the cosmetic appearance of the decals.

This was indeed printed from a vectorized PDF and has three Pantone colors: silver, black and white. 

Bedlam claims to use ALPS thermal printing technology. 

 

I carefully examined the decal sheet under bright light with a magnifier. 

The white objects are mostly text letters and they look rough around the edges like white paint that was chipped. The smaller text objects are somewhat distorted. 

The silver about the wolf's heads appears too dark in tone. The airplane windows appear to have serrated lines running through them. There appears to be artifacts as dust particles on some parts

of the sheet that were shellacked over. 

 

So all that said, which commercial online decal printing firm actually produces decal sheets with a very high degree of overall neatness?  

 

Here is a photo scan of the decal sheet I received but you won't be able to really see the defects here. 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2021 by Plumcrazy Preston

[CabDriver]

⬆️ You asked about this before, and asked about having these decals ALPs printed versus solvent ink printed.

My answer in that previous thread about solvent printing being better based on your needs still stands.  You even had already found a supplier who could do exactly what you needed, and I described exactly the process that they would need to do to get exactly what you were looking for.

I tackle projects like this day-in, day-out for a living; provided that German supplier you found is provided with proper vector artwork and Pantone codes, and uses his machine properly, you’ll be all set.

My identical Roland machine at work would handle this job in 2 minutes or less once I loaded the art up and dropped the ink cartridge in - nothing to it!

[Plumcrazy Preston]

Ok, I will have to contact this German fellow again this coming March. The only reason I passed him up because he is shut down until spring. I had no idea that ALPS made products looked that cheesy when held up under a magnifier. The stock decal sheets boxed inside model kits look so much more refined than what this Muma dude provided me. 

I also wasn't sure of the QUALITY of the German guy. There is cheesy mopeds made in China and there is Mercedes-Benz as an analogy. Is the German printer at least "Mercedes-Benz" grade if not Rolls-Royce grade? Remember that I have white objects. Can the German print white decals with razor-sharp edges? The white objects on the decal sheet Muma sent me are sloppier than the black objects. Some of the small silver text objects have small holes in them, they are slightly broken up. 

The trouble is I can't examine the workmanship samples of all these various printing firms in person. A picture posted on the Internet doesn't provide the same level of detail that a magnifier can provide to the naked human eye. 

Edited January 24, 2021 by Plumcrazy Preston

[Russell C]

On 1/23/2021 at 2:28 PM, Plumcrazy Preston said:

....This was indeed printed from a vectorized PDF ...

 

16 hours ago, Plumcrazy Preston said:

... ALPS made products looked that cheesy ... 

Not understanding your first bit, and maybe I'm out-of-date on my graphics knowledge, but vector files are vector files. Adobe Illustrator, CorelDRAW or some new variant that the industry has come up with lately that works identically. What is "vectorized PDF"?  I've turned text pages with photos and graphics drawn in my CorelDRAW program into PDFs just so I could email them to people to read, but I'd assume that means an automatically loss in quality to some degree, which is irrelevant to somebody printing out my page (a resumé or whatever) on the other side of the country to share with other folks.

When it comes to ALPS printing, you might have a very large and unfair generalization there. In the two or so decades I've heard about it, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say the quality of printing was substandard. What you might have in this instance is a single faulty printer and/or an operator who didn't run the machine correctly or did something to the artwork. If the file got degraded in some way, that would only make the problems worse.