Questions about AMT 67 Barracuda and MPC 68 & 69 Barracuda's

[VW93]

A few questions about the AMT 67 Barracuda and the MPC 68 and 69 Barracuda's

First, did the AMT 67 tooling wind up at MPC?

Next, can the current 69 Barracuda body be used to backdate to a 67 Barracuda using the parts available from the Modelhaus. Planned on using the Formula S hood, grille, bumpers, lower pans and taillights. Building a body only to be used as a drag slot car. I'm  assuming the hood would fit with no problems, not sure about the fit of the rest of the parts needed to backdate to a 67.

Finally, has anyone done the conversion ?

Thanks 

Edited August 5, 2015 by VW93

[Sport Suburban]

I don't know the full story of the tooling, but the kits are from the same tooling. It would be difficult to backdate the 69 to a 67. The 69 has a peak on the hood that matches up the front grill mounting panel. The grills are different shapes and the rear tail light panel is completely different. Modelhaus offers the chrome and tail lights but not the rest. I know Modelhaus offers a conv 67 body.

If you are looking for a 67 Barracuda. I may have one for sale.

 

[VW93]

Thanks for the info PM sent

[Bob Ellis]

• There was some overlap in the AMT and MPC kit line up. Some AMT kits made by MPC for AMT and some changing boxes.

[Dave Darby]

On 8/5/2015 at 1:48 PM, Bob Ellis said:

• There was some overlap in the AMT and MPC kit line up. Some AMT kits made by MPC for AMT and some changing boxes.

That's correct. Like the 28 Model A sedan, the Wild Dream/King T set, and the 65 Coronet, the 67 to 69 Barracuda was tooled by MPC, and the 1967 was sold under the AMT label.

[tim boyd]

Guys, double check me on this one as I do not have my reference material at hand right now, but my recollection is that unlike some of the MPC tooled kits initially sold under the  AMT  label, the 1967-69 Barracuda tool was an evolution of the earlier 1965-66 AMT kit, meaning in this case it was AMT-originated tooling that migrated to MPC for the 1968-69 updates.  My book has the full story on this IIRC.  

TIM 

 

[Dave Darby]

My info is via a Dennis Doty article in Collectible Automobile. The 65-66 kit appears to have ended up being split into the Gasser kit. With the stock chassis and (modified) interior tub used for the underside of the Fireball 500.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Dave Darby

[Mark]

The question is moot now that Modelhaus parts aren't available except second-hand.  The conversion could have been done, but nobody was paying attention to the '67 as a conversion.  Those who did make conversion kits concentrated on the '68 because of the Super Stock version. 

I never compared the parts but the '67 chassis/engine being a copy of the '66 rather than the actual parts makes sense to me.  Why AMT didn't make the '67 more different from the '66 (like including a V8 engine, as opposed to the slant 6 that doesn't fit with the exterior trim) is beyond me...

[tim boyd]

Guys.....finally got the time to visit the storage unit and do some more research on this.

I don't have complete info but the following is based on the original issue kits, partially built kits, box art, instruction sheets and reissues I do have. 

1. The powertrains (both the 426 Hemi and Slant Six) originated in the AMT-designed and tooled 1965 Barracuda kit and carried over essentially intact through the AMT 1966 and 1967 Barracuda and 1968 MPC Barracuda kits   (I don't have an original issue MPC 1969 but presume this applies to that kit as well).  

2. The promo style chassis plate with engraved single exhaust was (given the degree of info I have) carried through the entire production run of the above kits as well.  

3 The promo style chassis plate from the Barris Fireball 500 is identical the one in the Barracuda kits other than that the single exhaust engraving was removed for this kit run.  

4. The six or so kits that were tooled by MPC and sold for their first production run under the AMT label all shared the following unique points. (a)... They had MPC-style box art even though they had AMT branding for the first run. (b)... They  had  MPC style "stick" instruction sheet drawings vs. the beautifully conceived AMT art department instruction sheet illustrations  and  (c) they were released only once, during the 1964 to 1965 period under AMT labels and all subsequent runs of the toolings wore MPC labels.   The original AMT 1965-67 Barracuda annual kits show none of the above traits.

From the above, my conclusion remains that the original Barracuda tooling was developed by AMT (not MPC) and it was not until 1968 (for reasons still unexplained) that it migrated to MPC.  

Hope that helps......don't hesitate to post if you have different info.....TIM 

Edited September 28, 2018 by tim boyd

[1972coronet]

FWIW , the latest issue of the 1969 Barracuda includes :

- Crossram Intake for the (absent) 426 Hemi 

- Hurst Dual-Gate shifter and its console (though the kit has a 383 / 4-speed --- but the AMT '67 and '68 had a T-Flite backing the Hemi , right ? )

Basically , it would appear that Round2 unblocked some of the moulds which were blocked-off since who knows when .

EDIT / ADDENDUM : Nice to see that Dual-Gate and its console included --- those'll find their way into the interior of my 1968 Hemi Dart .

Edited September 28, 2018 by 1972coronet

[Dave Darby]

On 9/27/2018 at 8:35 PM, tim boyd said:

Guys.....finally got the time to visit the storage unit and do some more research on this.

I don't have complete info but the following is based on the original issue kits, partially built kits, box art, instruction sheets and reissues I do have. 

1. The powertrains (both the 426 Hemi and Slant Six) originated in the AMT-designed and tooled 1965 Barracuda kit and carried over essentially intact through the AMT 1966 and 1967 Barracuda and 1968 MPC Barracuda kits   (I don't have an original issue MPC 1969 but presume this applies to that kit as well).  

2. The promo style chassis plate with engraved single exhaust was (given the degree of info I have) carried through the entire production run of the above kits as well.  

3 The promo style chassis plate from the Barris Fireball 500 is identical the one in the Barracuda kits other than that the single exhaust engraving was removed for this kit run.  

4. The six or so kits that were tooled by MPC and sold for their first production run under the AMT label all shared the following unique points. (a)... They had MPC-style box art even though they had AMT branding for the first run. (b)... They  had  MPC style "stick" instruction sheet drawings vs. the beautifully conceived AMT art department instruction sheet illustrations  and  (c) they were released only once, during the 1964 to 1965 period under AMT labels and all subsequent runs of the toolings wore MPC labels.   The original AMT 1965-67 Barracuda annual kits show none of the above traits.

From the above, my conclusion remains that the original Barracuda tooling was developed by AMT (not MPC) and it was not until 1968 (for reasons still unexplained) that it migrated to MPC.  

Hope that helps......don't hesitate to post if you have different info.....TIM 

Hi Tim,

After further research, I am going to stand by my original belief that the 67 Barracuda is an MPC tool. I will base this on two pieces of evidence.  First this, based on an article in Collectible Automobile by Dennis Doty;

As with other companies before it, most notably AMT and Jo-Han, MPC developed many of its kits from pre-existing promo toolings. Toteff remained on good terms with his former colleagues at AMT, and many of the first MPC products were distributed in AMT packaging.^[3] For example, the 1967 MPC Plymouth Barracuda, originally made as a dealer promotional for Chrysler, was also marketed as a kit in an AMT box. Later, for 1968 and 1969 the newly designed second-iteration Barracuda reverted to an MPC box, with no apparent AMT connection.^[5

Doty, Dennis. 2011. Fishing for Barracudas, Collectible Automobile, vol. 28, no. 2, pp. 86–89.

The second is based off of viewing HPIGuys video review of the reissue AMT Fireball 500. (I also have an original).

Both the reissue and original lack the the stock exhaust system, have some ejector pin locations along with some other minor details that differ from the newer Barracuda chassis. More telling is the reissue Fireball 500 kit has a slant 6 intake manifold on one of the trees. So while the 67 Barracuda chassis is nearly identical, it's a separate tool.

MPC copied AMT stuff pretty often. A great example is the 50 Mercury. Compare the chassis to the AMT piece sometime. It retains the trunk pattern and the bottom side even has the engine block seam.

So for my money, the 67 Barracuda was made by MPC and sold by AMT.

Edited September 29, 2018 by Dave Darby

[tim boyd]

Dave......I appreciate the added info.  I've known Dennis for over 40 years now and trust him a great deal as an accomplished modeler, writer, and historian.  

In this case I am going to stick to my guns....I believe that the AMT '67 Barracuda was an AMT tool, derived from the 1965-66 tool, and then migrated to MPC for the 1968 run.  To the best of my knowledge, the only MPC-tooled kits that were originally sold under the AMT are those that carried all the elements cited in my earlier post.     

But I think you also have compelling rationale for your conclusion, so I guess this is one where we maybe need to agree to disagree.   Too bad Mr Toteff is not around these days, I'll bet he could tell us for sure...  TIM   

 

Edited September 29, 2018 by tim boyd

[Dave Darby]

7 hours ago, tim boyd said:

Dave......I appreciate the added info.  I've known Dennis for over 40 years now and trust him a great deal as an accomplished modeler, writer, and historian.  

In this case I am going to stick to my guns....I believe that the AMT '67 Barracuda was an AMT tool, derived from the 1965-66 tool, and then migrated to MPC for the 1968 run.  To the best of my knowledge, the only MPC-tooled kits that were originally sold under the AMT are those that carried all the elements cited in my earlier post.     

But I think you also have compelling rationale for your conclusion, so I guess this is one where we maybe need to agree to disagree.   Too bad Mr Toteff is not around these days, I'll bet he could tell us for sure...  TIM   

 

I can live with that. And I do see that two mufflers on the newer Barracuda don't match. But another slight possibility is that MPC also produced the 65-66 kit as well. 

Cheers!

Edited September 30, 2018 by Dave Darby

[tim boyd]

17 hours ago, Dave Darby said:

I can live with that. And I do see that two mufflers on the newer Barracuda don't match. But another slight possibility is that MPC also produced the 65-66 kit as well. 

Cheers!

On the 1965/66 kit, by all indications I can determine, was tooled and produced by AMT, not MPC. Not an ironclad conclusion, though. (For anyone unfamiliar with these kits, the AMT-branded 1965 Barracuda kit box art is pictured in my book in the chapter on all the Pony Cars except Mustang and Camaro....).     

I also checked the Paul Bender promotionals guide book (caution.....my copy is dated 1995 so it is well out of date); it said the 1967 Barracuda promo was by AMT, not MPC.  So Dennis and the Paul Bender guide (unless corrected in later editions) seem to have drawn different conclusions as well.   

I have come up with one person who was there at the time and might possibly know for sure, I'll try to contact him this week and see if he can shed any light on it. 

Until then, let's continue to presume both alternatives are plausible......cheers....TIM  

 

[Dave Darby]

9 hours ago, tim boyd said:

On the 1965/66 kit, by all indications I can determine, was tooled and produced by AMT, not MPC. Not an ironclad conclusion, though. (For anyone unfamiliar with these kits, the AMT-branded 1965 Barracuda kit box art is pictured in my book in the chapter on all the Pony Cars except Mustang and Camaro....).     

I also checked the Paul Bender promotionals guide book (caution.....my copy is dated 1995 so it is well out of date); it said the 1967 Barracuda promo was by AMT, not MPC.  So Dennis and the Paul Bender guide (unless corrected in later editions) seem to have drawn different conclusions as well.   

I have come up with one person who was there at the time and might possibly know for sure, I'll try to contact him this week and see if he can shed any light on it. 

Until then, let's continue to presume both alternatives are plausible......cheers....TIM  

 

Hi Tim,

Not having owned an original 65-66 kit,  I went looking on eBay at unbuilt kits and was pretty surprised at the commonality of the 65-66 kit with the 67.

I can certainly see your viewpoint. I seem to recall that George Toteff at some point (perhaps at the beginnings of MPC?) opened a tool making shop (Maybe the one in Windsor). I'm sure many an AMT tool passed through there.

Anyway, regarding my previous statement about the provenance of the Barracuda tool, I broke my own rule, which is very much in line with this:

"Without data you're just another person with an opinion"

W.Edwards Deming

None of us are infallible. Dennis isn't  and I'm certainly not. That said, it certainly would be interesting to get the full history on this, given the extensive history of cross pollination between MPC and AMT back in the day.

Edited September 30, 2018 by Dave Darby

[Bob Ellis]

I have always wondered if AMT fronted the money to George Toteff to start AMT. At first it seems that MPC competed with AMT. But, in some ways they complemented each other doing separate projects and supplying separate customers. A little like SMP did. The MPC 64 Corvette was a kit that AMT shouldn't have done. Too complicated versus their usual annuals that were promo based. Those experiences probably paved the way for the complicated 65 Galaxie chassis and 67 Impala chassis.