Well, this explains a lot...

[CometMan]

All of the above mentioned are VERY sad and painfully true, and here's another one to add...Nearly 20% of Americans over 18 now believe that NASA faked all six of the moon landings! And that percentage gets higher every time they take a new survey!!

[aurfalien]

I read the article and it sounds like 20% of ppl in America which is a bit diff then 20% of Americans.

However I always question polls like this as they seem to fuel disdain for one another.

There is nothing wrong with not knowing something but I REALLY think 20% is an extreme over exageration for Americans.  Now 20% world wide, sure I buy that one.

[CometMan]

I read the article and it sounds like 20% of ppl in America which is a bit diff then 20% of Americans.

However I always question polls like this as they seem to fuel disdain for one another.

There is nothing wrong with not knowing something but I REALLY think 20% is an extreme over exageration for Americans.  Now 20% world wide, sure I buy that one.

I see your point Brian and you are probably right on all accounts. But even if the true number is half of that it's still a shame especially if you consider that if the other countries that either were, or are, involved in space exploration would have gotten the opportunity to expose the U.S. as frauds they absolutely would have!!!

[Ace-Garageguy]

I read the article and it sounds like 20% of ppl in America which is a bit diff then 20% of Americans.          Ain't that the truth.

However I always question polls like this as they seem to fuel disdain for one another.       The object here isn't to criticize ignorant individuals, as in "each other", but rather to criticize a society that has allowed and even encourages ignorance to become the new smart, hip and cool.

There is nothing wrong with not knowing something but I REALLY think 20% is an extreme over exageration for Americans.  Now 20% world wide, sure I buy that one.      Well, yes there IS something wrong with "not knowing something" when the something in question USED to be common knowledge to any 6th grader, and the lack of that particular knowledge is symptomatic of a population that's technology-dependent but scientifically-ignorant, and really, simply, unfit to vote.

Understanding the world we live in and how it works is required to be an engaged participant and to have any valid opinions concerning ANYTHING...including who you vote for, and WHY.

NOTE: This isn't anything political. No parties or individuals or policies (other than whatever passes for educational policy now) have been mentioned or alluded to.

[High octane]

Proper education starts and ends at home with parents setting the example. Dumping kids at daycare is not parenting. I remember not long ago before greed took over the mother and father played a large role in discipline and education. Again thank a generation thats only concern has been selfishness.

Not every set of parents "dump" their kids at daycare, however when the parents are divorced and both of them work the pre-school kids have to go somewhere right? And no it's not the grandparents job to watch the kids for 40 hours a week either.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Not every set of parents "dump" their kids at daycare, however when the parents are divorced and both of them work the pre-school kids have to go somewhere right? And no it's not the grandparents job to watch the kids for 40 hours a week either.

Well, I know this a pretty old-fashioned concept, but whatever happened to the idea that before you start breeding, it might be good to establish a stable home environment for children to be born into, and to make damm sure the income was there to care for and educate them...BEFORE having them?

Oh, sorry...that sounds WAY to much like taking personal responsibility for your actions and being an adult.

 

Edited January 4, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[aurfalien]

I disagree.

Accumulated knowlegde is of little value, knowing the earth revolves around the sun doesn't improves ones approach to life in and of itself.

What matters is how one uses knowledge rather then knowledge itself.  In other words wisdom is key here and cricital thinking vs accumulated knowledge.

Case in point, albiet an extreme one; The a-bomb, while acheived by a lot of hard work by knowledgaable ppl is a scourge on life (in my opinion).

I don't think there are more stupid ppl now then before, but rather we are more aware of stupid ppl.

I mean it took a lot of stupid ppl to get us to this point in our history.

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

I disagree.

Accumulated knowlegde is of little value, knowing the earth revolves around the sun doesn't improves ones approach to life in and of itself.

What matters is how one uses knowledge rather then knowledge itself.  In other words wisdom is key here and cricital thinking vs accumulated knowledge.

Case in point, albiet an extreme one; The a-bomb, while acheived by a lot of hard work by knowledgaable ppl is a scourge on life (in my opinion).

I don't think there are more stupid ppl now then before, but rather we are more aware of stupid ppl.

I mean it took a lot of stupid ppl to get us to this point in our history.

 

Accumulated knowledge is of little value? REALLY? You certainly seem to make free use of the accumulated knowledge of board members here. I'll remember that "accumulated knowledge is of little value" in your opinion next time you ask a question I just happen to have accumulated the knowledge to accurately answer.

The A-bomb was seen to be a means-to-an-end, in order to put a quick finish to a global conflict...and the good guys thought the bad guys were a lot closer to perfecting and employing it. Developing and dropping the bomb was seen at the time as a way to save much of the human race from tyranny, and a vastly prolonged war. You, and many other way-after-the-fact-critics may not like it, but I'd like to know what YOU would have done differently. Asked the mean men nicely to put down their guns?

A great deal of what the ignorant generations now take for granted technologically is a direct result of follow-on R&D after the A-bomb program, the space-program, etc. Without all that prior accumulated knowledge, all the fancy smart-toys wouldn't exist.

Accumulated knowledge is one of the primary tools one employs when one engages in critical-thinking. Wisdom is knowing HOW to apply knowledge, not a substitute for it.

Granted, not knowing (or apparently caring) that the Earth tracks around the sun won't make you a better citizen-voter per se, but as I stated earlier, it's symptomatic of widespread and simply irresponsible ignorance of just about everything except popular culture.

But I agree with you 100% on one point... " it took a lot of stupid ppl to get us to this point in our history".

Edited January 4, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[aurfalien]

Accumulated knowledge is of little value? REALLY? You certainly seem to make free use of the accumulated knowledge of board members here. I'll remember that "accumulated knowledge is of little value" in your opinion next time you ask a question I just happen to have accumulated the knowledge to accurately answer.

Well, I think thats taking it a bit far.  I mean it in an over all approach to life.  I don't consider model building an approach to life but an extremely enjoyable hobby.  And I didn't mean to insult ones accumulated knowlegde as I've a lot of it as well, albeit in IT but still.

I wanted to illustrate that I feel too much importannce is placed on knowing something versus how we treate each other.  I personally am not smart and perhaps came off insulting so I apoligize.

 

The A-bomb was seen to be a means-to-an-end, in order to put a quick finish to a global conflict...and the good guys thought the bad guys were a lot closer to perfecting and employing it. Developing and dropping the bomb was seen at the time as a way to save much of the human race from tyranny, and a vastly prolonged war. You, and many other way-after-the-fact-critics may not like it, but I'd like to know what YOU would have done differently. Asked the mean men nicely to put down their guns?

Not at all, but to fight it out one by one so that we all truly inderstand the bloody result of war.  Today, we have far more casualities of nuclear energy then we do of its positive effects.

A great deal of what the ignorant generations now take for granted technologically is a direct result of follow-on R&D after the A-bomb program, the space-program, etc. Without all that prior accumulated knowledge, all the fancy smart-toys wouldn't exist.

Accumulated knowledge is one of the primary tools one employs when one engages in critical-thinking. Wisdom is knowing HOW to apply knowledge, not a substitute for it.

Agreed, there is a balance but all the importance is placed on knowlegde with out knowuing how to apply it.  While I radically swing the other way, the fact is critical thinking is not emphasized but rather the 3 Rs, 2 of which don't; start with R; Reading, Writing Arithmatic.

Granted, not knowing (or apparently caring) that the Earth tracks around the sun won't make you a better citizen-voter per se, but as I stated earlier, it's symptomatic of widespread and simply irresponsible ignorance of just about everything except popular culture.

Well, I agree on this point.

But I agree with you 100% on one point... " it took a lot of stupid ppl to get us to this point in our history".

 

Edited January 4, 2016 by aurfalien

[Ace-Garageguy]

Two points, Brian. Being a critic of nuclear energy is fine if you're INFORMED. Do you know that France makes over 80% of her electricity with nuclear plants, and that they're safe and clean for the most part? Nuclear power isn't bad. It's stupid and careless people implementing nuclear power that cause the problems. And cars have probably killed and maimed far more people than can be attributed to nuclear energy...including both A-bombs dropped in war. You just might try tapping into some of that useless accumulated knowledge you so disdain BEFORE making blanket statements about nuclear.

By your logic, we should ban cars as a "scourge on life". Nah. let's somehow make it less likely that stupid and distracted people DRIVE cars.

Second point...another fallacy in your arguments above is that, as (possibly too obliquely for mass consumption) posited in the OP and subsequent posts, the "3 Rs" are NOT being taught much any more, and have been replaced by a "feel-good' curriculum that strives to make kids feel all warm and politically-correctly-fuzzy at the expense of under-emphasized useful skills...like reading comprehension, knowledge of how to use arithmetic, and the ability to write and communicate in their own native language.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[Harry P.]

Without accumulated knowledge, how would we know not to put our hand into a flame or not to step out in front of an oncoming car?

Isn't accumulated knowledge the very thing that allows us to function?

[CometMan]

Wow! It seems like I stirred up a hornet's nest with my NASA comment! It's not about the AMOUNT of knowledge you accumulated, but the TYPE of knowledge you have that is most important. For example, does the fact that I can name all 18 Apollo astronauts in one sentence, and discuss my theory of what sank the RMS Lusitania in the next make me a better person, or even more knowledgeable than someone who is more concerned with which celebrity is dating which this week, or how to score the most points in the latest video game? No, of course not!! But, does the types of knowledge I concern myself with acquiring make me better equipped to solve critical situations that may arise in my life, or at the very least, use some piece of knowledge I already posses to gain another piece of knowledge I need to acquire to solve the problem? I would definitely like to think so!!

[Ace-Garageguy]

... does the types of knowledge I concern myself with acquiring make me better equipped to solve critical situations that may arise in my life, or at the very least, use some piece of knowledge I already posses to gain another piece of knowledge I need to acquire to solve the problem? I would definitely like to think so!!

Absolutely. 

[aurfalien]

Without accumulated knowledge, how would we know not to put our hand into a flame or not to step out in front of an oncoming car?

Isn't accumulated knowledge the very thing that allows us to function?

Read my response to Bill regarding my over emphasing wisdom over knowledge.  My point was that little if any attention is put on wisdom and critical thinking.

[Harry P.]

But without accumulated knowledge, critical thinking is impossible.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Read my response to Bill regarding my over emphasing wisdom over knowledge.  My point was that little if any attention is put on wisdom and critical thinking.

Applied common sense and critical-thinking, using a toolbox full of knowledge, is the most direct method of achieving wisdom.

[Ace-Garageguy]

But without accumulated knowledge, critical thinking is impossible.

Absolutely positively 100% correct.

[aurfalien]

Two points, Brian. Being a critic of nuclear energy is fine if you're INFORMED. Do you know that France makes over 80% of her electricity with nuclear plants, and that they're safe and clean for the most part? Nuclear power isn't bad. It's stupid and careless people implementing nuclear power that cause the problems.

And that will never change.  An error with a car can't kill as many as an error with the use of nuclear energy.

Also, its weaponzied varient is far more popular that it being used as a form of energy which is what I mainly find fault with.  Sure we split the atom but are we that much better off then we where before?

My point is that we are simply too irresponable and immature to deal with the knowledge we have attained.

And cars have probably killed and maimed far more people than can be attributed to nuclear energy...including both A-bombs dropped in war. You just might try tapping into some of that useless accumulated knowledge you so disdain

I'm unsure how you drew the conculsion that I have disdain for knowledge?  My point was an over emphasis on knowing versus undertanding.  There is a subtle yet Grand Canyon sized difference.

BEFORE making blanket statements about nuclear.

By your logic, we should ban cars as a "scourge on life". Nah. let's somehow make it less likely that stupid and distracted people DRIVE cars.

Thats a stretch and again, unsure how you drew that conclution.

Second point...another fallacy in your arguments above is that, as (possibly too obliquely for mass consumption) posited in the OP and subsequent posts, the "3 Rs" are NOT being taught much any more, and have been replaced by a "feel-good' curriculum that strives to make kids feel all warm and politically-correctly-fuzzy at the expense of under-emphasized useful skills...like reading comprehension, knowledge of how to use arithmetic, and the ability to write and communicate in their own native language.

No, upon reading the Common Core standards for US high schools, its still seems reading and math are highest on the list.  Now how its implemented in certain school districts is a different story.

Edited January 4, 2016 by aurfalien

[Ace-Garageguy]

So, if reading and math are the highest priorities on the Common Core list, why is the implementation failing to turn out masses of graduates who can write coherently, read at a better-than-sixth-grade level, and make change without looking at the computer prompt?

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/01/03/expert-most-us-college-freshmen-read-at-7th-grade-level/

http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2012/06/math_learning_software_and_other_technology_are_hurting_education_.html

http://disdblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/sheils_johnnycantwrite.pdf

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/why-johnny-cant-write-why-employers-are-mad-2D11577444

Edited January 4, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[aurfalien]

But without accumulated knowledge, critical thinking is impossible.

Thats an interesting point.  Can one think without knowing?  Thats begs the question, what is thought?  Is it mearly accumulation of trivia etc or something more?

Or, does it have a baseline, a starting point were not much knowledge is required in order to jump start the act of thinking?

Let me sleep on this and I'll get back to you.  Its a very intersting post you have.

Thanks for the post Harry.

Edited January 4, 2016 by aurfalien

[Ace-Garageguy]

Thats an interesting point.  Can one think without knowing?  Thats begs the question, what is thought?  Is it mearly accumulation of trivia etc or something more?

Or, does it have a baseline, a starting point were not much knowledge is required in order to jump start the act of thinking?

Let me sleep on this and I'll get back to you.  Its a very intersting post you have.

Thanks for the post Harry.

There's a "subtle but grand Canyon-sized difference" between thinking and critical-thinking.

You can think "I'm cold", but without critical-thinking, drawing on accumulated knowledge of why you're cold and how you go about using a blanket, making a fire, or closing the frigging window, you're going to stay cold.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[SfanGoch]

I'm unsure how you drew the conculsion that I have disdain for knowledge?  My point was an over emphasis on knowing versus undertanding.  There is a subtle yet Grand Canyon sized difference.

Wisdom is the ability to think and act using experience, knowledge, understanding, common sense and insight. Without any of the latter five, one cannot possess the former. There's no such thing as a wise man who knows or understands nothing..

Common Core is a curriculum straight out of Kafka. Einstein did all right with "old" arithmetic. So did Robert Goddard, Charles Ranlett Flint, Arno Allan Penzias and Richard Schwartz.

 

Edited January 4, 2016 by SfanGoch

[JollySipper]

I was visiting another forum, and this college student posted a thesis he had written. It was five paragraphs long, and was about the Entourage Effect of marijuana..... (something I'm sure he had done a lot of research on!) While I was reading it, I thought to myself that we were writing term papers like that in the 8th grade! I took Honors English/Lit in high school, and was writing 5+ page term papers in high school........... All with proper structure. This guy could barely eke out 5 paragraphs..............

[Harry P.]

Pretty hard to write coherently when you're wasted...

[SfanGoch]

Pretty hard to write coherently when you're wasted...

If I, or anyone else, even attempted to hand mindless floof like that in when I was in high school, my old, Nehru jacket wearing, overtly Socialist-leaning Regional Studies teacher Mr. Mendelsohn would have beaten us to death. Never mind what Nike Zeus Zacharias, one of my English teachers, would have done. He was small in stature; but, he projected a huge and menacing presence in the classroom. Too bad that kind of educator isn't around today.