Well, this explains a lot...

[CometMan]

I thought this was the Fifth Dimension...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjxSCAalsBE

Well that definitely fits into the era that this thread went into Harry!

[Ace-Garageguy]

Just a point I'd like to make again and reinforce...I didn't start this thread to make fun of people. I started it because there are some very real problems facing this country many of us love, and they are all SOLVABLE with some effort. But before they can be solved, they have to be identified and acknowledged.

A good, solid, BASIC education providing the ability to read and comprehend, write coherently, and use arithmetic well enough to be independent of a calculator should still be considered as rightfully owed to ALL children.

But if you read what's out there, that's NOT what they're getting. 

Is a model car forum the best place to address this? Well, maybe not the BEST, but certainly appropriate, because this hobby crosses all age and ethnic and even many national boundaries...without any need for politically-correct sensitivity enforcement. We're united by our interest, and as artists and craftsmen. We have to observe, think critically, develop manual and intellectual skills, and be continuing-learners to do what we all do and enjoy.

Those of us who are Americans are probably proud of that fact, even though it's just a lucky accident for most of us to have been born here. But to continue to live in a country that merits a sense of national pride, it's time to DO something about the apparent steady decay of what it means to be "American".

There was a time in the not too distant past when the concepts of "American know how" and "American ingenuity" were common, but we seem (to me) to be heading down a road that ignores those particular values, and will inevitably result in this country becoming a second-string player, dependent on other parts of the world for our survival.

Solid, simple basic education and a healthy respect for hard work, including dirty work, can turn this trend around.

It's not too late.

[fog cutter]

don't forget to post the address of the hospital so we can send a card.

[Ace-Garageguy]

don't forget to post the address of the hospital so we can send a card.

I do so admire your continuing thoughtful, incisive and to-the-point comments on a variety of subjects.

[aurfalien]

don't forget to post the address of the hospital so we can send a card.

I don't get it.

[CometMan]

I don't get it.

Brian, I think he's trying to say that Bill needs to go to the "institution" for his thoughts!

[peteski]

Bill, I think some of this diluting of those American value was due to the fact that there was a major change in the global economy. The world has become a much smaller place and less isolated than it was let's say 40 years ago. Instead of doing everything in-house (and keeping the know how within the company and within the country), large companies have expanded into many different locations all over the world. The R&D is no longer just kept in USA.  They can do it cheaper in other countries.  Which brings up another point: the bottom line. Now it seems that more than ever before (at least in my lifetime) all that the corporations seem to care about is maximizing their profit and pay off the shareholders. Plus all the mega-mergers where there are fewer and fewer companies competing with each other is also stiffing innovation. That is how I see it and there doesn't seem to be any way to reverse these trends.

The other thing is that the population is getting lazier when it comes to logical thinking. With the Internet and easy and instant access to the entire knowledge of the world, nobody needs to think anymore - we just "Google it".   The technology makes us not want to think - especially those who don't remember days before the Internet or a smart phone.  Why learn cursive writing or arithmetical operation in your head when the computing devices which are ever-present in our lives can do all of that for us. 

Like I said: I don't see a good way to get things back to the good-old-days. The cat (the tightly interconnected global economy) is out of the bag and we can't turn back.  But as a naturalized immigrant  I can tell you that while I can see lots of negative changes have taken place since I arrived in the good US of A, we still are much better off than many other places on this blue planet of ours.

[Matt Bacon]

it's time to DO something about the apparent steady decay of what it means to be "American".

...by the sound of it, joining a school board would be a good start...

Seriously. I'm the Chair of Governors at our local primary school (in the UK) and a board member of the Trust that runs my primary school (and five others, plus three secondary schools), so I'm hands-on involved in the education of children. If you're not happy with what goes on (or what you read is going on), then bring your commitment and skills to the party. You may also find that compared to what you read, what's actually happening is, well... "a little more complicated than that". (For example, until you look a little deeper than the National Review*, as I just did, you'd be forgiven for thinking that the Common Core initiative was introduced simply to befuddle youngsters with trendy pedagogy. I know there's a tendency over there for any federal initiative to be regarded as borderline treasonable, but really, doesn't it make sense for kids anywhere in the US to be taught the same things in the same way -- which is what Common Core was primarily intended to do -- so when they move house, or go to university, everyone knows the same things as they do?)

bestest,

M.

*Self-proclaimedly "America's most widely read and influential magazine and web site for conservative news, commentary, and opinion"

[fog cutter]

Brian, I think he's trying to say that Bill needs to go to the "institution" for his thoughts!

read some more of the posts  in a variety of threads. he's going to give himself an aneurysm trying to change the world into what he believes is the correct way of behaving. it is entertaining to anticipate what will be the next head explosion.

i continue to leave 20 feet of open space between my car and the one in front of me at stoplights.

[SfanGoch]

For example, until you look a little deeper than the National Review*, as I just did, you'd be forgiven for thinking that the Common Core initiative was introduced simply to befuddle youngsters with trendy pedagogy.

Actually, that's the gist of it. There are more than a few large municipal educational systems which have opted out of Common Core curricula for exactly that reason. Interestingly, New York City's public school teachers aren't crazy about it either. That, in itself, says a lot. The public elementary school system here is abhorrent. When comparing public versus private/parochial school students at the same grade level, a student in a public school is academically two years behind one attending a private/parochial school. I placed my kid back into a Catholic parochial school after he completed second grade at the neighborhood public school because the curriculum just plain sucked. The students didn't have textbooks. Everything was a stapled printout; yet, this particular public school spent $17,900 for something called "Handwriting Without Tears", which was supposed to be used to teach students cursive writing. Part of the program was to have students perform interpretive dances to "celebrate" different aspects of cursive writing. Really?!? What kind of happy horsefeathers is that?!? Also, division and multiplication wouldn't be taught until fourth grade. Great. The kids can ace a video game but can't tell you what 42 divided by 6 is. Funny, I was taught that, and more, when I was in second grade. What is it about kids today that educators have deemed them unready, or incapable, of learning at the same level as in the past?

The school faculty, and the parent-teacher association are "progressive" in their collective outlook and goals. Everything falls on the left hand side of the table. They were averse to listening to views or opinions which didn't toe the party line. The day following the 2008 Presidential election, my son's second grade class was given an interesting assignment. They were to write an essay titled, "Why I think Mr. Barack Obama is a great President". The guy wasn't even sworn in yet, for chrissakes! I told the teacher that, under no circumstance, will my son complete this nonsense. She's supposed to be teaching, not politically indoctrinating, children. I told her if she continued to impose her personal political ideology on the students, I'll have her license pulled. I didn't have to. The following year, she received the lowest teacher rating in the school district and was 86'ed by the superintendent. I had a number of discussions with the principal and the "parent coordinator" about the state of education and policies at the school; and, I finally told them not to send me a re-registration form because SfanGoch, Jr. wasn't returning in the fall. On the way home, I told my kid that he was going back to parochial school because if he stayed at this school any longer, he'll end up as stupid as the rest of the kids. He agreed. A woman overheard me and said. "How dare you say such a thing?!?" "Well, it's like this", I replied. "Deep down, in the back of your mind, you probably think your kid is stupid; but, you're afraid to say it because you know that he really might be." 

[Harry P.]

Am I missing something? Isn't the point of Common Core to "standardize" curriculum across the country so that the kids in Idaho are learning the same stuff as the kids in Iowa? Why is that a bad thing? Seems to me that it makes sense to teach all kids the same stuff in the same way... rather than a crazy-quilt of hundreds of different state and/or local curiculums (curricula?)? I guess you could object to the actual curriculum, but what's objectionable about the concept?

[aurfalien]

Brian, I think he's trying to say that Bill needs to go to the "institution" for his thoughts!

That's not very nice.

Edited January 5, 2016 by aurfalien

[SfanGoch]

The federal government shouldn't dictate the content of the curriculum. It exerts pressure (strongarms) on the states and municipalities into following DOE guidelines by threat of withholding funds. This is known as extortion in most places. Ironic, since it's money from the states in the first place. It might be a crazy-quilt; but, that's because each state is different from another in terms of its own history and development. The federal government does not have the ability to accurately determine what is in the best interests of each state, municipality or individual. One size doesn't fit all. That's why each entity has a Board of Regents/Dept. of Education which are better equipped to make these decisions. 

Why did the basics of education, the three "R's" if you will, work for so many generations to produce some of the most brilliant minds and most educated people on this planet, but is considered ineffective today? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Yet, that's exactly what "they" did. "They" broke it by trying to tweak, alter and replace something that worked. Common Core isn't a tool to teach. It's test prep without actually learning the "Who, What, Where, When, Why and Hows" of anything. It's imperative to make Uncle Sugar happy with them there test scores, even if they don't accurately reflect what students really know or understand. Under Common Core standards, you can get a partial credit for a math problem. What counts is that you performed the requisite steps correctly to arrive at the wrong answer. HUH?!? S'plain that one, Loocy. Vague generalities trump specificity. Style over substance. Glossing over information and facts without thoroughly explaining them. That's why more than a few students would be hard pressed to point out either Idaho or Iowa on a map if you asked them. It's pretty hard to keep up with all 57 states, y'know.

[Agent G]

While I agree with SfanGoch about the content of the curriculum, I believe at some point there should be some oversight as to minimum standars nation wide. 

I watched a news conference one time where the focus was on the St Louis Public School System. Seems the PS had gotten into a bind with the feds (DOE) regarding non compliance with their minimum standards.

The feds, as well as the state, had given the system 18 months to bring the curriculum, the administration and the budget, to standards. The interview with the superintendant was quite revealing. 

His response, paraphrasing here as best as I can recall, "Well, we almost got there."  

Almost, after 18 months? What, kind sir, did you do for 18 months? I thought to myself, "We almost got there", as opposed to "See how good I did." had the goal been reached.  

This was after my oldest graduated from public school and just before the middle child began kindergarten. There's a 13 year gap between the boys.......so things had changed, dramatically. 

My remaining two attended Catholic schools.

G 

[Matt Bacon]

It might be a crazy-quilt; but, that's because each state is different from another in terms of its own history and development. The federal government does not have the ability to accurately determine what is in the best interests of each state, municipality or individual. One size doesn't fit all. 

Yup. It's a great idea to allow states to legislate about, say, having their own value of pi. (And yes, before you say it, I KNOW  it's only Indiana where it even came close and that in 1897). It's just a bit tough on a Delaware student who wants to go to Stanford if the Delaware school board has decided that matrix algebra is more relevant in Delaware than differential calculus... Or on an engineering apprentice from Detroit who's only learned about internal combustion engines and wants get a job with Tesla or Faraday Future in California.

OF COURSE there should be nationally agreed expectations of skills, techniques and knowledge in science and math. Find a way for the states' Boards of Regents to come together and agree those shared expectations, and I'd be just as happy. But it needs to be done.

bestest,

M.

[Ace-Garageguy]

... Isn't the point of Common Core to "standardize" curriculum across the country so that the kids in Idaho are learning the same stuff as the kids in Iowa? Why is that a bad thing? Seems to me that it makes sense to teach all kids the same stuff in the same way... rather than a crazy-quilt of hundreds of different state and/or local curiculums (curricula?)? I guess you could object to the actual curriculum, but what's objectionable about the concept?

At first glance, the concept as you state it seems valid. The problem is that the way it's being implemented, and the whole "teach to the test" methodology, are deeply flawed.

Read the very valid comments made by those above who have experienced the problems first-hand, read the links I've posted about the level of graduating students' reading comprehension, communication skills in general, and the math skills of the population as a whole, and this    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teaching_to_the_test    and see if you think it's working.

[Ace-Garageguy]

read some more of the posts  in a variety of threads. he's going to give himself an aneurysm trying to change the world into what he believes is the correct way of behaving. it is entertaining to anticipate what will be the next head explosion.

i continue to leave 20 feet of open space between my car and the one in front of me at stoplights.

Ever hear this?..."if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem". I guess we know where you choose to stand.

"Apathetic" isn't an adjective I particularly want used to describe me, but there's an awful lot of it around. You have plenty of company.

 

 

[Matt Bacon]

BTW, what that Wikipedia article notably fails to mention is that the UK has had standardised testing and a National Curriculum for three decades. We sit at 6th in the league table of of international education systems compiled in 2015 by The Economist Intelligence Unit (that nest of left-leaning subversives). Above us are South Korea, Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong and Finland. Every one of them has a national curriculum and standardised testing. 

Oh... and the USA lies below Russia. 

For 15 year olds in maths, the US rates 36 out of 40, between Slovakia and Lithuania. Once again, the top 10 all have a national curriculum and standardised tests. So if I were you, I'd get on with implementing the provisions of the No Child Left Behind Act. It might get you higher up the table...

bestest,

M.

[Ace-Garageguy]

BTW, what that Wikipedia article notably fails to mention is that the UK has had standardised testing and a National Curriculum for three decades. We sit at 6th in the league table of of international education systems compiled in 2015 by The Economist Intelligence Unit (that nest of left-leaning subversives). Above us are South Korea, Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong and Finland. Every one of them has a national curriculum and standardised testing. 

Oh... and the USA lies below Russia. 

For 15 year olds in maths, the US rates 36 out of 40, between Slovakia and Lithuania. Once again, the top 10 all have a national curriculum and standardised tests. So if I were you, I'd get on with implementing the provisions of the No Child Left Behind Act. It might get you higher up the table...

bestest,

M.

The "No Child Left Behind Act" was passed in 2001, but still leaves state and local jurisdictions a lot of leeway in interpreting how to implement it. Though fine in concept, again, the implementation seems to be failing...14+ years on.

The US needs to have a long, hard look at how the countries where the concept IS working are teaching.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind_Act

 

[Harry P.]

Back to Common Core...

I do see where some people (or states or school boards) may chafe at the idea of the Feds dictating to them what they will or won't teach. I get that whole "get the hell out of our lives and leave us do what we do best" argument, I really do. And in fact, I believe that the feds actually have no business, Constitutionally speaking, being in the education arena in the first place. Where does the Constitution call for a "Department of Education?" You could make a valid argument regarding the fact that the feds don't belong in the education business, period.

But the fact is, the Dept. of Ed. does exist, and like all huge federal bureaucracies, it ain't going away any time soon. Soooooo, as long as the feds have created this "right" of theirs to dictate educational standards, we're going to either have to abolish the Dept. of Ed., or go along with what it dictates.

Maybe "Common Core" ought to limit itself to defining a national minimal curriculum... in other words, defining the least that kids have to be taught, i.e., they must be taught reading, writing, arithmetic, history, science, etc., at appropriate levels in appropriate grades. Your local curriculum has to meet that minimum level of educating, but is free to teach other things above and beyond CC... things that the locals believe benefits them specifically. So maybe those kids in Idaho would get classes in Home Ec and Auto Shop, while the kids in Iowa would get classes in Agribusiness and farming tech. Localized curriculums for localized needs and wants, but a nationwide minimum requirement covering the basics.

I agree 100% with Bill's comment... we need to study the methods used in those countries where the kids are doing better than ours are, and try to figure out what those countries are doing right, and why we aren't doing the same things.

[Harry P.]

At first glance, the concept as you state it seems valid. The problem is that the way it's being implemented, and the whole "teach to the test" methodology, are deeply flawed.

If we shouldn't measure students' progress by testing them, how do you measure their progress? How do you determine whether of not they've grasped the basics of the subject?

Seems to me that testing kids is the only way of determining what they do and don't know. Wouldn't a well-designed "standardized" test accurately measure a kid's grasp of the subject he's being tested on? If not, what is the alternative? What is the better way of doing things other than "teaching to the test?"

[Matt Bacon]

You guys do have a real "them and us" attitude to "the Feds", don't you? They're not "them", they're YOU. Any of you can get elected by all the rest of you to any post at any level of government, local or national. When do you suddenly turn into monsters?

I'm sure the Constitution didn't call for a Nuclear Regulatory Agency, a Federal Reserve or even a State Department (though they caught on to that one pretty quickly...). Or come to that a standing army and navy and a Department of Defense. But like it or not, America is now a nation and a global superpower, not a loose affiliation of a handful of ex-colonies that it takes days to travel between and which trade more overseas than they do with each other, oftentimes not speaking the same language. There's probably quite a lot of things the Founding Fathers said that may not quite apply today.

I just find it amazing that the radical, ground-breaking, liberal, humanist thoughts and deeds and, especially, words of a group of brilliant minds bent on changing their world can be fossilised in a way that I'm darn sure Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and Tom Paine would have hated. They were revolutionaries, futurists, and if they were around today, they'd STILL see the world and want to change it for the better, not cling to the past...

bestest,

M.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Matt Bacon

[Harry P.]

You guys do have a real "them and us" attitude to "the Feds", don't you? They're not "them", they're YOU. Any of you can get elected by all the rest of you to any post at any level of government, local or national. When do you suddenly turn into monsters?

Well, I can't speak for all of us, but my opinion is the "us vs them" feeling many Americans have regarding the feds, and the rather large amount of people who are "mad as hell" about business as usual regarding both major parties is that the feds don't act in our best interest, as they are supposed to do. After all, we the people send them to Washington to theoretically represent our interests, not their interests. But human nature being what it is, our politicians quickly become part of the "Washington bubble" and their entire lives and interactions take place within that political bubble they inhabit. That, plus the enormous financial power of political lobbies that pressure politicians to vote or legislate in the lobby's interest, not ours. Political interest groups donate huge sums to the politicians in order to pressure them and control their behavior, and the money is used to fund the politicians' re-elections–to hang on to power. It's all about power, money, influence, and holding on to the power you have. The last thing our national politicians worry about is what's best for the people. They're too busy worrying about, and acting on, what's best for their own self-interest.

Hence, "we the people" feel taken advantage of, not listened to, and not looked out for. All "we the people" are to the feds is their source of revenue–ever increasing taxation funding ever-growing government. In Washington, Job 1 is figuring out how to squeeze another nickel out of the taxpayers to fund yet another bloated, inefficient, and useless federal bureaucracy. Is it any wonder it's an "us vs them" situation?

It's a messed up system that would need a huge, thorough, and widespread overhaul, beginning with term limits for all elected officials and outlawing the practice of lobbying. But the people in power will never clean up the system when the system is rigged to their own benefit!

It's a very different country today than it was when the colonies first became independent. Back then, political service was meant to be a temporary thing... something a citizen did out of a sense of service to their country. Serve your term, then go home back to your civilian life. Today, being a politician is a lifelong post, and that sense of "citizen government" is long gone. There are tons of people in Washington today that have literally never done anything other than be a politician.

It's definitely an "us vs them" situation these days.

And that's all I'll say, as politics is supposed to be off-limits here...

(Maybe we should start a self-contained "Politics" section)?

[Harry P.]

I'm sure the Constitution didn't call for a Nuclear Regulatory Agency, a Federal Reserve or even a State Department (though they caught on to that one pretty quickly...). Or come to that a standing army and navy and a Department of Defense. But like it or not, America is now a nation and a global superpower, not a loose affiliation of a handful of ex-colonies that it takes days to travel between and which trade more overseas than they do with each other, oftentimes not speaking the same language. There's probably quite a lot of things the Founding Fathers said that may not quite apply today.

But the fact is, the Constitution is the basis of our government. Whatever it says, that's the law. And if it's not in the Constitution, well, that would make it by definition unconstitutional. If there are anachronisms in the Constitution (and obviously the founding fathers were pretty bright, but they were only human and couldn't look hundreds of years into the future and anticipate life as it is today), then the remedy is not to ignore or usurp the Constitution, but to amend the Constitution. That's the right way to do it. But unfortunately not the way it's done here.

[mike 51]

Yikes!   I wonder why so many Americans have become so reactionary in recent years...is it,in part, because the music we all enjoyed was replaced by simplistic right-wing propaganda that obsesses a noisey minority? 

I, for one, would prefer NOT to repeat the 1930s...and the results.

 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2016 by mike 51