The Chrysler from Hell is at the dealer....

[george 53]

Greg, Sorry I was so Broad in my remarks,I was not Implying that ALL vendor co. were bad, But then Ive never heard of Muth.We Dealt alot with Lear, Bing Ind.(Owend by Dave Bing,former Piston, an a REAL nice guy!)and Mexican Ind.Inc.,and many others. Out of all these co.,only Bing Ind. would come into the plant and investigate a problem.All the rest were content to take the loss of stock, an still have the nerve to charge G.M. for something that was delivered bad from THEM! Alot of these vendor co. thought they could get away with sending defective goods and chargeing for them.Till the bean counters started doing pre installation checks randomly and finding the defects! Now they (the vendors) have to GUARANTEE! 99% defect free parts!,or their contract will not be renewed!Things are gettin tougher to try rippin G.M. off.Too bad they dint start doin this a LONG time ago!

[Jello]

I guess this is the smear mouth trash Mopars thread.

Mine run fine, always have and the Chrysler's I've bought in the past that had a problem and were supposed to be "junk!!!" had a problem that could be traced down to either neglect, abuse or mechanical incompetence. All ran fine after taking care of a former owner's poor care.

I guess you folks like Toyotas with broken frames, Hondas that the wheels fall off of, Chevrolets with blown motors, etc, etc....

And Jello? I'm getting ready to take my daughter to summer school in my Grand Caravan with just under 180K miles, and it's low miles compared to my ol 86 Plymouth Reliant with 400K and the several slant sixes I've had with almost that many miles. I've had more Mopars with over 200K than I can count.

You guys better stick to glue and plastic, I can tell most of you haven't had a wrench in your hand much. Funny thing is, if something else was being trashed, I'd expect a moderator to step in.

ALL vehicles are junk period! Some are better than others and it really does depend on how well you take care of that vehicle...people drive more than 4,000 miles up to 15,000 miles without oil changes?? I change mine every 3,000 miles. People leave them in the hot sun so the wires become faded & start shorts in the electric systems?, never wash them?, never even looked under the car, drive the hell out them ( the worse you can do to a car!)..I have owned Mopars, Chevies and Fords and nothing else and been a auto mechanic since I was 12 & finally got out of the business when the auto makers really started producing junk in the early '90s and now do woodworking. I had an Olds 88 350V4 that had 310,000 miles on it, '69 Charger with 160,000, a GMC truck with 280,000 and 2 Ford Mavericks ( 200 inline 6) with over 200,000 miles on the clock, still got them running so, I must be doing something right?

Its good your Caravan lasted that long & you must take good care of it and consider yourself lucky! Very few lasted over 100,000 without major repair$. I have owned 2 Dodge trucks, one a new '79, engine ran great but body parts fell off even before I even finish paying off the truck! The bed was rusted out in 4 years even tho it got waxed every 2 months and the plastic interior panels warped in the sun, and those rattles from under truck just drove nuts! The whole 8ft bed actually came lose behind the cab and damaged it. Truck was too rusted out in 6 years to get any resale value for it.

Thought to try again in 2005, got a new double cab loaded top of the line 4x4 Dodge...in 2 weeks, the antenna just came off the fender with the cable still on and scratched the ###### out the whole right side door & fender at 65 mph!...month later, defective valve cover gasket spilled oil all over the engine & outside, 3 months later, AC died in the middle of the hot summer, took the dealer a month to fix it and finally, the tranny died...all this under 5,000 miles...traded it in for a new Ford truck and still have it today with no problems except paint runs from the factory which they gave me a 2,000 dollars off the price.

Its really true that todays cars no matter the brand are not meant to last long and they want you to buy another one after paying off your current one and anybody that choses to drive them over 100,000 do so at their risk and yes, some do last much longer and some sure do cost you plenty to repair..todays average under 10 years old car repair bill is 2,300.00 dollars at the dealer. Even more I heard.

I think you misunderstood me and I was not knocking Dodges any more than any other brand, I was just stateing the facts..even the imports which means Nissan, Toyota etc are no better than the 'little' 3 auto makers..in fact, they are actually worse!

I love Chrysler vehicles made in the '60s but I will never ever buy another new one made today and thats from personal experience and if those 2 trucks has been Fords or Chevys, I wouldn't them either.

It comes down to how well you treat your car that decides how long it lasts with the exception of certain vehicles that no matter how well you treat them, they break anyways and for me, it was those 2 Dodge trucks. My Grandfather drove nothing but Dodge trucks and they were great back in the '50s to early '71 his last one but it didn't work for me.

The biggest thing that missing in this country today from companies is PRIDE in their products. 'Enuff said!

~ Jeff

[Brian Fishburn]

I hate to tell you, but you may find post #33 in this thread strikingly familiar.

It is strikingly familiar, and it is still strikingly wrong.

As I said, if there's some way that I can be negligent in maintenance to cause electrical problems, why then has the vehicle that sits next to it in the driveway had less than half the electrical problems in over twice the ownership time? If I'm so bad at maintenance, why doesn't the other vehicle have a LOT of electrical problems, since it's languished under my lousy maintenance for over twice the time.

Here's the fact- electrically, our Durango is ######. Period. Great truck otherwise, but a piece of poo electrically.

Despite this, I'm NOT a Chrysler hater. In fact, I LOVE Mopars. It will be a cold day in Hades before I buy another newer one, but I'll jump at the next good deal on an older one. One built back in the days when dealing with Mopar electrical only meant carrying an extra ballast resistor and a fire extinguisher.

[Eshaver]

I had no idea my story would generate the response and the passion it's generated. Still I want everyone involved who bothered to write in that I actually sat and re read every last post. First let me tell you I have been a mechanic since 1966. I have also been a manufacturer of after market accessories for the Van and R V industry. I've also owned a Taxi( 83) Dodge Diplomat , and I have been an installer of wrecker bodies for Jerr-Dann and Century. In addition to that I have years of experience towing all kinds of vehicles , both big trucks and sports cars I still own a 1953 Ford Panel Delivery with a Flat-Head in it and a 78 Ford E-150. I'll also add this too. I have said this for years that if some manufacturer built a car with a Chevrolet body, a ford engine and a Chrysler transmission then we could shut down the entire automobile union . Actually I kinda like the Chrysler mini vans. Still, this isn't the first time I have experienced problems. I had a Plymouth mini van from 1995. I had many of the same electrical problems on that van as I've experienced on the Chrysler. In fact electrical problems have been a big problem with every Chrysler product I ever encountered. They seem to have some of the worst body construction I've ever seen, uh 68 Chargers. Still, I've only seen where the G M Hydra- Matic of the 1950's and G M's Turbo 400 were up to any real duties. Sorry Bow-tie Boys , but in towing I'd much rather have a Ford Gas wrecker than any thing Chevrolet produces, the frames flex too much for me . And Please don't get me started on Toyota, there was a commercial running on T V back in 79 . The guy was screaming "America,you asked for it and you got it. Toyota! ". Well, I screamed back at the TV "oh no I don't, I like my rusty 69 Ford 1 ton Van. Yes, it was rusty, got 10 miles to the gallon , but hell, you couldn't buy gasoline in the Gulf coast region then any way , so what did it matter. Ed Shaver

[Zoom Zoom]

It is strikingly familiar, and it is still strikingly wrong.

Fully understood. I'm a member of the "got the lecture" club as well. That's all I will say publicly, as it's not worth dredging up again.

[Ron Hamilton]

And now you know why "The new Chrysler Corporation" would NOT put their "Lifetime Warranty" on such a beast. That plan is going to bankrupt them, as well as the $2.99 per gallon gas gimmick. Build a better car with good looks, mileage, performance, and good dealer practices, and they will come.

[Jello]

It seems to me that all 3 auto makers have their 'oddball' cars & trucks and I going to take a good guess that it has something to do with where its made...In my experience, I couldn't help but notice that certain cars & trucks have parts made in other countries that are ###### and others that are great and of course, that old rule about not buying cars made on Fridays & Mondays seems to be true too...on fridays, its pay day and everybody is in a hurry and ready for the weekend and on Mondays, they are hungover and tired from playing all weekend!

For some odd reason, most of the 'bad car mud' gets dumped on Chrysler vehicles..some true & some not..Chrysler has always been the runt of the litter and never reached the top while GM & Ford were always up there. Not sure why is that but its how it is today and it was in the '80s.

I had always rooted for Chrysler to be #1 and they have made some great cars & trucks especially in the '50s to early '70s and after that, the mindset at Chrysler has always been a strange trip.

I have had lots of experience with Ford & GM vehicles and found some real dogs but yet, you never hear much about it..my Mother bought a new Mercury Sable in '92, beautiful car loaded big V-6 and drove great but in less than 2 years, the plastic radiator came apart, the whole AC system needed replaced at 1,400 bucks, FWD tranny was always leaking and breaking, the computer would shut off right in the middle of the intersections & traffic lights, painted started fading, tires lasted about 15,000 miles and theres all kinds of weird sounds from under the hood.

Believe it or not, after 160,000 miles, she still drives the crazy car! It keeps on running for some odd reason.

Its really about just finding that lucky car no matter the brand..kinda like a great pair of boots or jeans you would wear for years! Just cause you had a great car and decided to trade it in for the same model does not mean the new one is going to work as good. Thats life.

~ Jeff

[CAL]

For some odd reason, most of the 'bad car mud' gets dumped on Chrysler vehicles..some true & some not..Chrysler has always been the runt of the litter and never reached the top while GM & Ford were always up there. Not sure why is that but its how it is today and it was in the '80s.

I had always rooted for Chrysler to be #1 and they have made some great cars & trucks especially in the '50s to early '70s and after that, the mindset at Chrysler has always been a strange trip.

~ Jeff

I am not sure why that is either, but I have some suspicions. They are certainly the odd duck out.

They do get an A+ for designs and styling, at least on some of their cars.

Some were horrible, but so were some GMs and Fords.

It seems they fall down on the rest of the car.

The Viper is a shinning example. Awesome looking car, looks fast, has a V10 for crying out loud, but it is a ill-handling brick to drive and is non-competitive in the classes it could race in. That's why nobody races them any more.

Another shinning example is the Dodge Ram, when the new sloped body came out it looked good, had a powerful Cummings, but there were so many problems in those first few years - extreme problems, automatic trans, frame and axle ripping out, spring and alignment - largely because they put a heavy duty diesel in a light duty truck and didn't do anything else to until they had to.

They just seemed to have a ton of automatic trans problems across the board.

Even their muscle cars had unusual but significant problems. They look good, had power, and had spirit, but the Hemi in particular and the 440 to some extent had main cracking problems. They still would run and usually wouldn't find out until you did a rebuild and had the block cleaned and shot-penned. I threw away a lot of Hemi and 440 blocks. I just didn't come across this with Ford or GM.

So you have your hardcore Mopar guys and gals, but anyone one the peripheral would run and hide.

They also tended to be much more expensive to restore, race, or keep up than Chevy and Ford.

And you have the bailouts of Chrysler by the government and has survived by normal definition several chapter 11s.

They just seem to have this dark cloud over them that never seems to go away. It seems every time there is hope it is overshadowed by some self-inflicted doom.

Daimler hasn't done them ANY favors. In fact, they are in a real precarious position since AFAIK they have no remaining Americans on the board of directors for Chrysler.

See, black cloud.

It seems like everything they get into, black cloud. I remember when the Factory Pro Stock Mopar team was on top of the world, until they were found out to be were cheaters - see Darrel Alderman and the NOS scandal.

Has the sun ever shinned on MOPAR land?

In any even, I tried to like Chrysler, Dodge and the mighty Mopar, really I tried. But they would let me.

Furthermore, being in the car business and seeing year after year Chryslers with the most number of common problems, the lowest resale value (it’s terrible and is driven by 2 things reliability and factory incentives, which Chrysler has historically been most aggressive, and radical at), and lends them to being typically the furthest upside down. I wouldn’t even own one I had to pay for.

Oh well enough bashing Chrysler.

[Peter Lombardo]

I think I am going to upset many of you with this set of remarks, but here goes. The American automobile industry is in dire striates…..they are in big trouble. You know there is a problem when GM and Ford stock are both under $10.00 and very close to $5.00. The price of gasoline will continue to rise. We will be over $5.00 a gallon around Labor Day. The Detroit 3 (can’t call them the “big 3†anymore) do not manufacture enough vehicles with the kind of mpg numbers that American’s (fickle Americans) want now.

Chrysler builds absolutely nothing today that is fuel efficient, at least to the fuel efficient standards of the Japanese, Koreans or Germans. And if that is not bad enough, hold on to your hats because here come the Chinese and the Indian’s. They build very nice and fuel efficient vehicles. India’s Tata, a large industrial company that builds many things, including autos just completed the purchase of Jaguar and Land Rover from Ford (you know, these companies have had more owners than Christie Brinkley has had husband’s) Anyway, Tata has plans to build and sell a 4 passenger auto, here in the USA for $2,500.00. The only thing that can change that price upward is the cost of steel going up substantially. The Chinese will be here soon selling cars and further damaging the market share of the once big 3.

It is a very sad commentary when GM sells more cars in China than they do in America, but that is the case. Ford is only surviving today because of sales in Europe and Asia. Both Ford and GM lose money, a lot of money, here and any profit they show comes from overseas.

I predict that 50% of the domestic auto dealerships in America will go away in the next 3 to 5 years. That is not just idle speculation, that comes from over 35 years in and around the retail auto business…mark my words. In 5 years you will not recognize the auto industry here in America, hell, in 5 years, you will not recognize the American business landscape. Labor costs, health care costs, pension and factory operation costs will have spelled the end of what little manufacturing there is in America.

Here is an example of what I am talking about…a few years ago an axel manufacturing plant was thriving in the Indiana. Recently, they were forced to close down because they were not competitive in the marketplace. Literally, just down the road, a brand new state of the art factory was constructed to build axels for cars, only this one is owned by a Chinese company. Many of the workers from the American plant applied for and received jobs at the new plant. Big difference is the pay…it’s about 60% of what the workers used to get, and the benefit package is much less. The workers are happy though, at least they are working.

There is a new world order coming, and we will not be at the top of the pecking order. Look, I don’t hate America, on the contrary, I love this place…but we have been sold down the river. Recently, there was a delegation from the Detroit area in China. They were “courting†many Chinese companies to come to Detroit and build a factory to employ their out of work workers. Detroit feels they missed the boat with the Japanese companies who located most of their factories in the south because the southern states “gave away the candy store†to the Japanese with huge tax breaks and incentives if they located there. Detroit can’t afford to miss out again.

Sorry, but I think the handwriting is on the wall. We, America, don’t make anything any more, our wealth is all going overseas. Our Dollars are becoming worthless and our stature in the world is falling fast. Our elected leaders have sold us out for their personal gain. They do not work for us, they work for their re-election campaign. We need term limits on ALL ELECTED officials, all the way down to dog catcher. We need a comprehensive energy policy. This ###### that we can’t drill for oil here in America has and will continue to cripple our economy. Hell, I think it is already too late to help it now. Bill Clinton (I said this before) vetoed the bill to open the ANWR area of Alaska to drilling in 1994. Our oil companies cannot drill in the Rocky Mountains, off the coast of Florida and California and not in AWNR in Alaska. Gentleman, we are screwed. We are being held (our economy) hostage by foreign countries that openly want to damage us. What the hell is the matter with us? There is this overwhelming attitude in America right now that we are somehow evil and deserve punishment. The out of control environmentalists are killing our once great way of life. We have people in our government that tell us what we can eat, where we can eat it and how we must dispose of the leftovers. Don’t misunderstand me, I am not a polluter. Yes I drive a car powered by hydrocarbons and yes I create garbage in my day to day routine, but give me a break, I will not apologize for that.

Trust me, either Israel or the US is going to have to stop Iran’s nuclear program…that must happen, and when it does, the price of gasoline is going through the roof. John McCain and that other guy that I can’t bring myself to even say, is not what this country needs right now. We need strong unafraid leadership. The news media has pushed their agenda on us, we (America) has been pushed into accepting one or the other of these guys, but trust me on this also, neither one will successfully guide this country through the turbulent waters that lay right ahead of us.

Sorry to be so negative here, but I fear it is too late, the die is cast. The energy problem is too big, too fast. Our economy can not adjust quick enough. Sure we need alternate forms of energy, but the bulk of our economy runs on oil. You car will not run on wind, wave, sun or nuclear power right now, and we do not have the battery technology to use electric cars yet, at least in the numbers and distances that we need. We need oil right now, cheap and plentiful if our economy is to survive, and buy us time to develop alternatives. This energy crisis came on too fast and too severe for us to work out of now.

Wake up America…it is slipping away. Our trade deficit with China is staggering. They are using that money to buy our debt, build their infrastructure and build their military. At some point, they will drop our debt on the market, our economy will crash and they will have us without a shot being fired. I can go on and on about this, but I am sure I lost most of you two pages ago.

I said this before to Ed Shaver, God help us, but why should he when we have taken him out of our schools, our lives and out of our country. Hold on gentleman, there are dark clouds gathering on the horizon and they are coming from the east this time.

[lordairgtar]

Wake up America…it is slipping away. Our trade deficit with China is staggering. They are using that money to buy our debt, build their infrastructure and build their military. At some point, they will drop our debt on the market, our economy will crash and they will have us without a shot being fired. I can go on and on about this, but I am sure I lost most of you two pages ago.

I said this before to Ed Shaver, God help us, but why should he when we have taken him out of our schools, our lives and out of our country. Hold on gentleman, there are dark clouds gathering on the horizon and they are coming from the east this time.

I agree with you in part, in fact most of it. China, although holding a sizable chunk of debt, isn't the largest holder. Our own US Government holds 45% of it and the Private sector holds 28%. The rest is owned by foreign governments. If you take the foreign holdings by themselves, China holds a little over 19%. If figured into the whole, they own roughly 4 to 6%. The largest foreign government holding US debt is Japan, then China, followed by the Brits. The rest are broken down into smaller chunks by many nations.

[Peter Lombardo]

Gregg, I was oversimplifying the situation because of time and space, but wanted to get the point across that our trade deficit is very dangerous and that having China, as one of the leading holders of our debt, is even more problematic. I do not view China as our friend. Japan, South Korea, Great Britain and a handful of others, yes. But the Chinese, Saudi’s and other Arab nations would, in my view, cut our economic hearts out in a heartbeat. Today they need our consumers of their goods and services (oil and cheap stuff) and our Dollar as the world currency, but when the day comes, and it will, that we are no longer needed, they will drop us like us like Hugh Hefner dropped sleeping partners.

Today, our trade deficit is in excess of $376 Trillion, yes with a T. Below is an excerpt of a short essay written in July 2005, just three years ago. Now, maybe I an idiot, I certainly am no leading Economist, but Mr. Roberts is. Three years ago the trade deficit was a fraction of what it is now, so the danger of what Mr. Roberts is pointing out have been amplified many times over.

America likes to think that we have a strong military to keep us safe in a hostile world. That may be true against bombs and missiles, but we are extremely vulnerable to an economic attack, primarily of our own doing. As America produces less and less durable goods and relies on other countries for manufacturing and other countries for energy, we WILL fall victim to their economic manipulations. We have had, and currently have, a huge transfer of our wealth to other countries. As we squander our hard earned wealth and world economic leadership, we sow the seeds of our own demise. WE WILL GO DOWN WITHOUT A SHOT BEING FIRED. You can take that to the bank.

Please, if you, who are reading this, and have gotten this far in this conversation, please take the time to read the excerpt below….it is not too long and it is very insightful. As it opens, Mr. Roberts is taking about the sums of (our debt) money owned by other countries. Remember, this was written in July 2005, in the past three years the situation has only gotten much worse. Our elected leaders have NOT lead us down a safe or secure path. This should scare the “BeJesus†out of you….it does me.

“These sums give these countries enormous leverage over the United States. By dumping some portion of their reserves, these countries could put the dollar under intense pressure and send U.S. interest rates skyrocketing. Washington would really have to anger Japan and Korea to provoke such action, but in a showdown with China—over Taiwan, for example—China holds the cards. China and Japan, and the world at large, have more dollar reserves than they require. They would have no problem teaching a hegemonic superpower a lesson if the need arose.

Last year the U.S. trade deficit with the rest of the world was $617 billion. In the first quarter of this year, our trade deficit is $174 billion—$35 billion higher than in the first quarter of last year. If this figure holds for the remaining three quarters and does not increase, the U.S. trade deficit in 2005 will be $700 billion.

Offshore outsourcing makes it impossible for the U.S. to rectify its trade imbalance through exports. As more and more of the production of goods and services for U.S. markets moves offshore, we have less capability to boost our exports, and the trade deficit automatically widens. Economic catastrophe at some point in the future seems assured.

In the meantime, even a small country could pop the U.S. housing bubble by dumping dollar reserves—which is some fix for a superpower to be in, especially one that is disdainful of the opinion of the rest of the world. Comeuppance can’t be far away.

The hardest blow on Americans will fall when China does revalue its currency. When China’s currency ceases to be undervalued, American shoppers in Wal-Mart, where 70 percent of the goods on the shelves are made in China, will think they are in Neiman Marcus. Price increases will cause a dramatic reduction in American real incomes. If this coincides with rising interest rates and a setback in the housing market, American consumers will experience the hardest times since the Great Depressionâ€.

________________________________________________________

Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury under President Reagan.

[Guest zebm1]

I think I am going to upset many of you with this set of remarks, but here goes. The American automobile industry is in dire striates…..they are in big trouble. You know there is a problem when GM and Ford stock are both under $10.00 and very close to $5.00. The price of gasoline will continue to rise. We will be over $5.00 a gallon around Labor Day. The Detroit 3 (can’t call them the “big 3†anymore) do not manufacture enough vehicles with the kind of mpg numbers that American’s (fickle Americans) want now.

Chrysler builds absolutely nothing today that is fuel efficient, at least to the fuel efficient standards of the Japanese, Koreans or Germans. And if that is not bad enough, hold on to your hats because here come the Chinese and the Indian’s. They build very nice and fuel efficient vehicles. India’s Tata, a large industrial company that builds many things, including autos just completed the purchase of Jaguar and Land Rover from Ford (you know, these companies have had more owners than Christie Brinkley has had husband’s) Anyway, Tata has plans to build and sell a 4 passenger auto, here in the USA for $2,500.00. The only thing that can change that price upward is the cost of steel going up substantially. The Chinese will be here soon selling cars and further damaging the market share of the once big 3.

It is a very sad commentary when GM sells more cars in China than they do in America, but that is the case. Ford is only surviving today because of sales in Europe and Asia. Both Ford and GM lose money, a lot of money, here and any profit they show comes from overseas.

I predict that 50% of the domestic auto dealerships in America will go away in the next 3 to 5 years. That is not just idle speculation, that comes from over 35 years in and around the retail auto business…mark my words. In 5 years you will not recognize the auto industry here in America, hell, in 5 years, you will not recognize the American business landscape. Labor costs, health care costs, pension and factory operation costs will have spelled the end of what little manufacturing there is in America.

Here is an example of what I am talking about…a few years ago an axel manufacturing plant was thriving in the Indiana. Recently, they were forced to close down because they were not competitive in the marketplace. Literally, just down the road, a brand new state of the art factory was constructed to build axels for cars, only this one is owned by a Chinese company. Many of the workers from the American plant applied for and received jobs at the new plant. Big difference is the pay…it’s about 60% of what the workers used to get, and the benefit package is much less. The workers are happy though, at least they are working.

There is a new world order coming, and we will not be at the top of the pecking order. Look, I don’t hate America, on the contrary, I love this place…but we have been sold down the river. Recently, there was a delegation from the Detroit area in China. They were “courting†many Chinese companies to come to Detroit and build a factory to employ their out of work workers. Detroit feels they missed the boat with the Japanese companies who located most of their factories in the south because the southern states “gave away the candy store†to the Japanese with huge tax breaks and incentives if they located there. Detroit can’t afford to miss out again.

Sorry, but I think the handwriting is on the wall. We, America, don’t make anything any more, our wealth is all going overseas. Our Dollars are becoming worthless and our stature in the world is falling fast. Our elected leaders have sold us out for their personal gain. They do not work for us, they work for their re-election campaign. We need term limits on ALL ELECTED officials, all the way down to dog catcher. We need a comprehensive energy policy. This ###### that we can’t drill for oil here in America has and will continue to cripple our economy. Hell, I think it is already too late to help it now. Bill Clinton (I said this before) vetoed the bill to open the ANWR area of Alaska to drilling in 1994. Our oil companies cannot drill in the Rocky Mountains, off the coast of Florida and California and not in AWNR in Alaska. Gentleman, we are screwed. We are being held (our economy) hostage by foreign countries that openly want to damage us. What the hell is the matter with us? There is this overwhelming attitude in America right now that we are somehow evil and deserve punishment. The out of control environmentalists are killing our once great way of life. We have people in our government that tell us what we can eat, where we can eat it and how we must dispose of the leftovers. Don’t misunderstand me, I am not a polluter. Yes I drive a car powered by hydrocarbons and yes I create garbage in my day to day routine, but give me a break, I will not apologize for that.

Trust me, either Israel or the US is going to have to stop Iran’s nuclear program…that must happen, and when it does, the price of gasoline is going through the roof. John McCain and that other guy that I can’t bring myself to even say, is not what this country needs right now. We need strong unafraid leadership. The news media has pushed their agenda on us, we (America) has been pushed into accepting one or the other of these guys, but trust me on this also, neither one will successfully guide this country through the turbulent waters that lay right ahead of us.

Sorry to be so negative here, but I fear it is too late, the die is cast. The energy problem is too big, too fast. Our economy can not adjust quick enough. Sure we need alternate forms of energy, but the bulk of our economy runs on oil. You car will not run on wind, wave, sun or nuclear power right now, and we do not have the battery technology to use electric cars yet, at least in the numbers and distances that we need. We need oil right now, cheap and plentiful if our economy is to survive, and buy us time to develop alternatives. This energy crisis came on too fast and too severe for us to work out of now.

Wake up America…it is slipping away. Our trade deficit with China is staggering. They are using that money to buy our debt, build their infrastructure and build their military. At some point, they will drop our debt on the market, our economy will crash and they will have us without a shot being fired. I can go on and on about this, but I am sure I lost most of you two pages ago.

I said this before to Ed Shaver, God help us, but why should he when we have taken him out of our schools, our lives and out of our country. Hold on gentleman, there are dark clouds gathering on the horizon and they are coming from the east this time.

The primary problems that I see with most of your complaints Peter, is that you feel that we should "surrender" all that was previously gained in the 19th and 20th Centuries and behave as "Borg" ala the STNG TV Show. The "Free Trade Agreements, originally proposed by the Republican Party and signed into existence by George Bush 1, were stated as for improving, "lifting up the Standards of Living for the rest of the World to ours." Do you really think that has happened? Or has the Reverse in fact actually happened by Lowering our Standards of Living back to...ohhh maybe the 1930s.

As to the so-called Oil drilling problems, BIG oil has oil leases that currently total over 84,000 square miles of leased federal land and received incredibly massive Tax breaks for drilling, building new oil refineries.....guess what, they have not drilled one new well nor have they built one new oil refinery. BUt, they want us to hand to Big Oil millions more acres and even larger Tax Breaks.....Peter, do you ever feel like the "Gimp" in "Pulp Fiction?" You should, because we're being "greased with Vaseline real good."

Now one last point, what are you going to do when all of these Americans, that grew up in a Society that taught them that they could exercise "Free Will" and pursue that "American Dream", but can't any more because our "so-called" conservative Leaders want us to behave as Borg with no Free Will or Independent Thoughts. Got any good ideas about this problem in a Country where the majority has the most guns per capita of any country in the world amongst it's civilian population? And a lot of those civilians are "God-fearing Christians", that have historically shown a propensity for "overthrowing" those who abuse their positions of Power, a great many "burned at the Stake" for "their Sins."

The Nexus Approacheth........

and....Hey, don't blame me.....I didn't start this debate/discussion.

Edited July 13, 2008 by zebm1

[Daniel Peterson]

know sarcasm much?

Wait! That's a rhetorical question, right?

On a separate matter. I don't know where you and your pops were yesterday, but the Muscle Car Madness show was amazing. You guys would have enjoyed it...especially when the couple hundred cars in the hall started parading out to their trailers around 9PM...and nary a muffler in the bunch!

[Peter Lombardo]

First, I don’t blame you for anything except a misguided understanding of what I said before.

I find your retort to my complaint completely off the mark and distorted by a very “political†ideology. Clearly you are liberal in your view and want to play the “blame game†with conservatives. What I find interesting to that is that I never once spoke in “political†terms. I blame all of our elected leaders, not just those of one party affiliation or the other.

Both the legislative and executive branches of our government have failed us. Both political parties have sold the “American Peopleâ€, the ones they always “pander†to, down the river for their personal gain. Let’s get real here, why do these lawyers work so hard, and spend so much money, some times their own money, to gain political office? That is very easy to answer; they do it because there is a huge pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Please allow me to hold the Clinton’s (something tells me you like them) up as a shining example of this theory. By their own admission, they were broke upon leaving the White House, in fact, they were begging us for contributions to the “Bill Clinton can’t keep it in his pants defense fundâ€. Now here we are, 7 years later and the Clinton’s have earned $109,000,000.00. Did that come from Hillary’s Senatorial salary? Did Bill invent something that earned a great royalty? No, it was earned from speeches given in foreign countries to governments that needed to “pay back†our good old ex-president for favors given in the prior 8 years. Now, before you get dizzy over this comment, the Republicans are just as guilty of the same shameful behavior, which is why, if you will think about what I said before, I blame them all. We have a catastrophic failure of leadership on our hands and it can spell the “end of our world as we know itâ€

Whether you like the reality of it or not, we (America) are in the middle of a “Global Economyâ€. In the good old days we WERE the world economy. We saved Europe twice from a powerful aggressor. We stopped a colonial Japan from overrunning all of Asia. We beat (for the time being, anyway) Communism in Eastern Europe. Our industrial might was the envy of the free world. People from every country in the world longed to come to America and see the “roads paved in goldâ€. We truly were the “Ugly Americanâ€â€¦not you and me, but our powerful and degrading attitude toward other countries. We went in and took their oil and acted like we were doing them a favor for doing it. We exploited their “cheap workers†so we could have inexpensive shirts and jeans. We took our American dollars and trotted off to foreign countries to “see the sights, pick up a few bargains, and lay a few “tips†on the local hotel workers. Yeah, the term “Ugly American†came from how we as a country viewed the rest of the world.

Well, times have sure changed because nothing lasts forever, except maybe a diamond. Other countries have figured out how to bring us to our collective knees. And our CEO’s, Elected Leaders and our Media have done us, the pandered to, American People, a major dis-service.

If nothing else, our Industrial might made us a great and formable country. We have surrendered that advantage to the other counties of the world for the short term gain of the CEO’s and Politicians. The damage is so wide spread that I fear we have crossed the Rubicon. There is no going back now. The only way we can fight back is militarily. Economically, we are anemic. Our dollar is dropping and it is only because the Chinese have artificially kept their currency lower than it should be, for their personal gain that keeps us even a little afloat.

So you think I am advocating “Surrender� Where did you get that idea from? I stated the problems as I see them and think that without a fundamental change in Washington and Wall Street, we are doomed. Doomed to third world status. Without the energy that we need, and need now, we can’t possibly hope to progress in this world. China is where it is all happening now. They are the new leader of the industrial world….not us. I have to tell you, for his own personal gain, Al Gore has single-handedly done more damage to the American future that any group of people. He has the environmentalists worked up into a frenzy. Without cheap plentiful energy we are screwed. Your misguided views about the land that the oil companies have rights to are just that, misguided. That is the liberal spin, and spin only. All of the “Big†major oil companies are foreign owned, look it up if you don’t believe me. We can’t build new refineries because the regulations are so strict, it does not pay. The last time we tried to open a nuclear power plant, the public and government outrage was so bad, it was shut down before it opened (Indian Point, NY). We are in big trouble, that is a fact, not a declaration of surrender….understand the difference.

It matters not who signed the “Free Trade†agreement, Bush, Clinton or Bush Jr., it would be signed because Big American Business and Big American Government wanted it. Look, Bill Clinton signed NAFTA; you did not mention that little tidbit. I was dead set against NAFTA back then and I am more against it now. NAFTA was pushed hard by Big Business and Big Government but it screwed the little guy. If you are as liberal as I think you are, based up your comments, why did the poster child for liberalism, Bill Clinton, sign it when it only stood to take factory jobs from America and relocate them to Canada and Mexico?

This is not about Liberal or conservative. It is not about Republican or Democrat. It is about our very survival and our way of life.

The two biggest problems, among many, are the loss of manufacturing jobs in American and the complete lack of a cohesive energy policy. You can blame who ever you want for that. I blame the short sided view of the American people. We, as a general rule are too worried about whether our team makes the playoffs. We care what some misguided movie star said or did way too much. Millions of Americans care more about who won American Idol. We have lost sight of our responsibilities. You get the government you deserve and we have the government we deserve.

This is not what our founding fathers envisioned for us. Think about it. They were very careful to design a Representative form of government. That means, WE would represent OURSELVES. Not some bloated self-righteous bureaucrat who hangs around in Washington for a few weeks a year and networks himself into deals to earn millions. Our government is for sale to the highest bidder. Just how long do you think that can go on? The original plan was for US, to elect a REPRESENTATIVE, from among ourselves, you know, farmer, factory owner, merchant, someone who understood what we are and what we needed from our government. That person would go to the capital twice a year and represent us. Remember, a government OF the people, FOR the people, BY the people….that’s a laugh. I am not so naïve to think that we, in this day and age with the complex problems the world offers, can be governed on a part time basis, but do you really think any of your elected leaders know what you think or want from them? I’ll answer that because it is an easy one, NO. They tell you what they think you want to hear. Like I said, you get the government you deserve and we deserve the ###### they are giving us.

Oh, yeah, one last note to you, I guess you agree with Obama that Middle America is filled with scared hayseeds who cling to guns and religion. That is a very scary thought, it is scary that you believe it and scarier still that Mr. Obama could actually preside over the death and destruction of America as we once knew it. Sorry, I did not want to make it a personal attack on any one politician, but the reference to guns and religion was just too easy for me to not to comment on.

Something tells me this debate will go on.

[Guest zebm1]

Globalization has been going on since the days of the Spanish Empire.....humanity has always been involved in a Global Economy..... for well over 4-5,000 years. So what's new about that, except for those who seek to control the markets, the price and who gets the benefit of the profits...same-o, same-o.

As far as the Clinton's or the Bush's, both families are graduates of Yale University, a university that was founded as a Puritain Seminary. One of the few evangelical prosletyzing theologies that overthrew a secular government and executed the King of England. During their reign, they wrote a very restrictive constitution, caused a 30 year long Civil War and a very famous Puritain named Cromwell declared himself, "Dictator of England." Probably the first use of the word Dictator by public declaration in the last 500 years. The Puritains lost the Civil War, fled to the Netherlands...and continued their subversive attempts to reclaim control of England's government and State religion. England's government told the Dutch Royals... paraphrased "get rid of them or we will invade you and destroy them all!" The Puritains didn't come here because of "Religious Perscution", they were running for their lives because Dark Revenge was hanging them one by one and two by two....go back and read Englsh Histories, not the American versions.

So, Yale U. has been directly involved for 2 centuries in controling our government, and because of that and their "Secret Society, Skull and Bones", I don't trust any Yalie that has made a career out of politics. As an elected or a careerist. In my humble opinion, our religious problems in this country can be directly traced back to the Puritain influence, they will never rest until they re-establish the same government that they once had in England, complete control of everyone and everything in the same fashion as Sharia Laws.

So Peter, yes you are correct, I am a Liberal and a Republican and a Deist and I will enjoy crossing foils with you as this thread progresses.

Oh and as a polite acknowledgement of this site's Owner Peter, this thread is best continued in the Rants and Raves Section.....political debates are best expressed in the aforementioned Section. Please be humble and aquiesce to my suggestion. Thank you for your considerations.

Edited July 14, 2008 by zebm1

[Brian Fishburn]

Yalie or not- I don't trust ANYONE who has made a career out of politics

[Peter Lombardo]

Zebm1, I am done…I said my piece, readers are free to think what they will about these viewpoints…I am more interested in finishing the car on my workbench right now….November is a long way off, and much can and will happen between now and then. But one last point, you suggested that Bill Clinton is a Bonesman, he is not, but John Kerry is, Bill Clinton has participated in the Bilderberg Group which is even more of a concern. I agree that this is not the place for this debate, this about relaxation and creativity.

[Guest zebm1]

No I just said that Bill Clinton went to Yale, where he met Hillary....the Skulls reference had to do with a secret agenda, secret society, not a fraternity, but allowed to exist @ Yale. Now on to my Merc GTP.....

[MikeMc]

WHAT THE HELL DOES ANY OF THIS HAVE TO DO WITH MODELS????????????

[CAL]

WHAT THE HELL DOES ANY OF THIS HAVE TO DO WITH MODELS????????????

Well, let's say you got in your car and floored it. Then all the sudden you are doing warp 1, the speed of light, and it starting getting dark out. So you turn on your headlamps... does anything happen?

[Guest zebm1]

NO, because you ae going FTL....Faster Than Lightspeed........

[Nick F40]

Chris

Because we build for Americans that don't care about the "car", they just want the cellphone/gps/Ipod hookup and what kind of status symbol and what it looks like and we got to have these big, useless, big vehicles and all we worry about is hands free and electronics.

Wow, why don't we drill out in the ocean.......