James Flowers Posted December 14, 2008 Posted December 14, 2008 I am just curious with all the talk of auto workers getting paid to much. What do you think they should make an hour? What benefits would you give them ? For all those that are retired how much would you take away from them ? What is a fair wage for your job and benefits? Maybe some of you are over paid also? Should we cut your pay also? I think it will be interesting to see your answers.
raisin27 Posted December 16, 2008 Posted December 16, 2008 I am just curious with all the talk of auto workers getting paid to much. What do you think they should make an hour? What benefits would you give them ? For all those that are retired how much would you take away from them ? What is a fair wage for your job and benefits? Maybe some of you are over paid also? Should we cut your pay also? I think it will be interesting to see your answers. Not really an answer to the question, as much as an explanation as to why the wages are what they are....... Auto workers have been paid higher than average wages since Henry Ford perfected the assembly line, long before there even was a union. Car builders found employee turn over to be so high they had to offer higher pay just to get people to do this type of work. I personally have witnessed in my 16 years at ford that whenever a group of new workers were hired, they had to bring on more than needed because generally about half quit before the first month. They think they are in for easy money and discover its real work for hours without stopping. In other words the wages are what the market will bear. When the unions did come in in the 40's most of what they were wanting wasnt more pay but better working conditions. I would think that in a bad economy when work is hard to get (like now) people might be willing to take less, and starting wages have dropped dramatically at the big 3. Even the transplants that pay a little less than UAW wages pay far more than what the typical wage is in their region. Maybe Toyotas method of compensation is worth examining.........they get a slightly lower per hour wage (i have read about $24 compared to $28 for a big 3 worker), but they get bonuses determined by how well the company is doing. For the last few years Toyota workers have outearned their big 3 counterparts in America.
James Flowers Posted December 16, 2008 Posted December 16, 2008 I know what you mean raisin27 by folks quiting a job . We get that all the time were I work. They think our job is really easy until they work it one night. Nine out of ten substitutes never come back. The fact is we only have two subs to cover 14 people and they won't show up half the time when someone misses. It is like any other job in that if you do it awhile it looks easy too someone that has never did the job before. I find it very interesting that no one else has answered my question . They sure had a lot to say before. Maybe a lot of over paid folks out there.
Joe Handley Posted December 16, 2008 Posted December 16, 2008 (edited) I found this on another forum ]I couldn't have said this any better myself. MITCH ALBOM Hey, you senators: Thanks for nothing A few parting words for the senators who squashed the auto rescue By MITCH ALBOM • FREE PRESS COLUMNIST • December 13, 2008 Do you want to watch us drown? Is that it? Do want to see the last gurgle of economic air spit from our lips? If so, senators, know this: You’ll go down with us. America isn’t America without an auto industry. You can argue whether $14 billion would have saved it, but you surely tried to kill it. We have grease on our hands. You have blood. Kill the car, kill the country. History will show that when America was on its knees, a handful of lawmakers tried to cut off its feet. And blame the workers. How suddenly did the workers — a small percentage of a car’s cost — become justification for crushing an industry? And when did Detroit become the symbol of economic dysfunction? Are you kidding? Have you looked in the mirror lately, Washington? In a world where banks hemorrhaged trillions in a high-priced gamble called credit derivative swaps that YOU failed to regulate, how on earth do WE need to be punished? In a bailout era where you shoveled billions, with no demands, to banks and financial firms, why do WE need to be schooled on how to run a business? Who is more dysfunctional in business than YOU? Who blows more money? Who wastes more trillions on favors, payback and pork? At least in the auto industry, if folks don’t like what you make, they don’t have to buy it. In government, even your worst mistakes, we have to live with. And now Detroit should die with this? In bed with the foreign automakers Kill the car, kill the country. Sen. Richard Shelby, Sen. Bob Corker, Sen. Mitch McConnell, your names will not be forgotten. It’s amazing how you pretend to speak for America when you are only watching out for your political party, which would love to cripple unions, and your states, which house foreign auto plants. Corker, you’ve got Nissan there and Volkswagen coming. Shelby, you’ve got Hyundai, Honda, Mercedes-Benz and — like McConnell — Toyota. Oh, don’t kid yourself. They didn’t come because you earned their business, a subject on which you enjoy lecturing the Detroit Three. No, they came because you threw billions in state tax breaks to lure them. And now you want those foreign companies, which you lured, and which get help from their governments, to dictate to American workers how much they should be paid? Tell you what. You’re so fond of the foreign model, why don’t you do what Japanese ministers do when they screw up the country’s finances? They cut their salaries. Or they resign in shame. When was the last time a U.S. senator resigned over a failed policy? Yet you want to fire Rick Wagoner? Who are you people? More money for the lords of Wall Street There ought to be a law — against the hypocrisy our government has demonstrated. The speed with which wheelbarrows of money were dumped on Wall Street versus the slow noose hung on the auto companies’ necks is reprehensible. Some of those same banks we bailed out are now saying they won’t extend credit to auto dealers. Wasn’t that why we gave them the money? To loosen credit? Where’s your tight grip on those funds, senators? Where’s your micromanaging of the wages in banking? Or do you just enjoy having your hands around blue-collared throats? No matter what the president does, history will not forget this: At our nation’s most uncertain hour, you senators stood ready to plunge hundreds of thousands of American families into oblivion. Leave them unemployed, with no health care, on public assistance. And you were willing to put our nation’s security at risk — by squashing the manufacturing base we must have in times of war. And why? So you could stand on some phony principle? Crush a union? Play to your base? How is our nation better off today now that you kept $14 billion in the treasury? Are you going to balance the budget with that? Don’t make us laugh. Kill the car, kill the country. You tried to slam a stake into our chest; you don’t realize how close you are to the nation’s heart. Shame on your pettiness. Shame on your hypocrisy. This is how lawmakers behave two weeks before Christmas? Honestly. What has become of this country? Contact MITCH ALBOM at 313-223-4581 or malbom@freepress.com. Catch “The Mitch Albom Show†5-7 p.m. weekdays on WJR-AM (760).[ Edited December 16, 2008 by Joe Handley
Art Anderson Posted December 16, 2008 Posted December 16, 2008 What about collision repair? Don't bodyshopos need airbags, fenders, bumpers and grilles, etc. all the time? Sure, the demand for OEM components would be smaller if the Big Three went to that big graveyard of automakers in the sky and joined Studebaker, Willys-Overland, Cord/Auburn/Duesenberg, Duryea, AMC, Jordan, Hupp, Kissel, Marmon, Stanley, Pierce-Arrow, etc. etc. But the slowdown would only be temporary. Hey... I never said the transition would be easy or painless... I'm not saying it would be a wonderful thing to see the Big Three disappear, I'm saying that the death of the "current" US auto industry would not be permanent, but temporary, and the resulting new companies could very well be better than the ones they replace. Here's another interesting thought: If the Big Three did disappear, the demand for cars here in the US wouldn't suddenly shrink! Wouldn't the remaining manufacturers who operate here (Toyota, Honda, BMW and all the rest) start to immediately ramp up production to meet the demand? Build new plants, hire more workers? Maybe even ex-Big Three workers, who are experienced and available? Wouldn't it make sense that the remaining manufacturers would increase production in order to meet demand? Well, IF you want cheap knockoff, virtually counterfeit crash parts that generally do not fit as advertised, are made of questionable, if not inferior grades of sheet steel, lacking virtually all manner of corrosion control--sure, India, Indonesia, Taiwan can do that. No, if the Big Three evaporated from the planet in the next 3 months, demand would fall, for automobiles, for homes, for appliances, for furniture, for (you can fill in the blanks here, there will be innumerable ones), simply due to the massive layoffs across this country. Let Toyota, Honda, BMW and all the rest pick up the slack? Surely you don't mean we should just hand over ALL car manufacturing to companies not of American origin? If that's the way we are going to run this country, then how long before there is NO American industry whatsoever? How long befure there is no United States of America anymore, but rather a collection of colonial possessions, or simply a toothless old land with "Trading Concessions" as was China a mere century ago? (for some reading that will give anyone a taste of what that was all about, tru "55 Days in Peking--was also a major motion picture, or dig into why the story that became the 60's film "The Sand Pebbles"--based on the story of USS Panay, BTW--then tell me you want to see that sort of thing evolve here. The immediate issues surrounding $14 Billion (or whatever it turns out to be) are, IMO, just the tip of the iceberg here. And that is an iceberg that a small clique of Republican senators are either unwilling to see on the horizon, or worse, they are deliberately trying to steer the Ship of State on a collision course--either way, a much smaller icecube sank the Titanic 97 years ago. Art
Ramcharger Posted December 16, 2008 Posted December 16, 2008 Not to step on anyone's toes, but this whole "bailout" of the auto industry is sounding more and more like a threat to me. Bail us out or else! Not the best way to convince me you need a loan. Remember, this mess was started because people didn't buy American made cars for what ever reason. Until they start buying them, this is not going away. Just my .02!
RadRidesByDan Posted December 16, 2008 Posted December 16, 2008 Not to step on anyone's toes, but this whole "bailout" of the auto industry is sounding more and more like a threat to me. Bail us out or else! Not the best way to convince me you need a loan. Thats why I said earlier on in this topic....Let them go sink and go bankrupt, get rid of all these snot nose, greedy CEOs and thier right hands who only care about whats in thier pockets, get rid of the UAW, let new management takes over with a brand new plan with the plant workers, to get the companies back on the road to success with the bailout from the government This way here its not a band-aid fix, let people who actually care about the auto industry take over. If I was part of the government and I had some whiney *** CEO threaten me, give me or else....you know how fast that CEO would be told to &&&& off Unbelievable to have stones that big, to actually give an altimatum.
Harry P. Posted December 16, 2008 Author Posted December 16, 2008 The immediate issues surrounding $14 Billion (or whatever it turns out to be) are, IMO, just the tip of the iceberg here. And that is an iceberg that a small clique of Republican senators are either unwilling to see on the horizon, or worse, they are deliberately trying to steer the Ship of State on a collision course--either way, a much smaller icecube sank the Titanic 97 years ago. Art And on the other hand... if the government (that is, you and me and all the other taxpayers) are now apparently responsible for rescuing a group of badly run, mismanaged and inefficient companies (The Big Three), where does it end??? Who will be the next industry in line for a handout? Who decides who's "worthy" of taxpayer bailouts and who's not? WHERE DOES IT END??? Art, how many more failing companies are you willing to help fund with your hard-earned money??? This is one ride I did NOT want to get on...
Harry P. Posted December 16, 2008 Author Posted December 16, 2008 Toyota is FOR the bailout Then let Toyota pay for it!
James Flowers Posted December 16, 2008 Posted December 16, 2008 Thats why I said earlier on in this topic....Let them go sink and go bankrupt, get rid of all these snot nose, greedy CEOs and thier right hands who only care about whats in thier pockets, get rid of the UAW, let new management takes over with a brand new plan with the plant workers, to get the companies back on the road to success with the bailout from the government This way here its not a band-aid fix, let people who actually care about the auto industry take over. If I was part of the government and I had some whiney *** CEO threaten me, give me or else....you know how fast that CEO would be told to &&&& off Unbelievable to have stones that big, to actually give an altimatum. You say get rid of the UAW? Why because they make too much ? So Tell us how much is a worker worth, as I ask in My post above. I would like to know what you would give them $5.00 , $10.00 an hour. What benefits do you give them if any? No one wants too answer that question . They just want too put the UAW down it seams. Do you get paid more than you are worth? What is a living wage to you $10,000, $20,000 a year? Some us would like to know your answer.
old-hermit Posted December 16, 2008 Posted December 16, 2008 Ya know, I've tried to keep up with this thread but it's getting to be nothing but who to blame and who did what and why don't they do this and so on and so forth. Face it guys, Congress bailed out Wall Street because every representative in Washington is a millionaire and their portfolios were crashing as fast as the stock market. They are dragging their feet on the "big three" bail out because the "big three's" stock is already at rock bottom and the millionaires aren't going to lose any more money if the auto companies do fail. It all comes down to the bottom dollar on the tally sheet. My two cent's.
James Flowers Posted December 16, 2008 Posted December 16, 2008 Then let Toyota pay for it! Have you ever got a loan for something or are you rich and pay cash for everything? Blame Wall Street not the Auto companies they did not ruin the economy .
James Flowers Posted December 16, 2008 Posted December 16, 2008 Ya know, I've tried to keep up with this thread but it's getting to be nothing but who to blame and who did what and why don't they do this and so on and so forth. Face it guys, Congress bailed out Wall Street because every representative in Washington is a millionaire and their portfolios were crashing as fast as the stock market. They are dragging their feet on the "big three" bail out because the "big three's" stock is already at rock bottom and the millionaires aren't going to lose any more money if the auto companies do fail. It all comes down to the bottom dollar on the tally sheet. My two cent's. I think you hit the nail on the head as they say.
RadRidesByDan Posted December 16, 2008 Posted December 16, 2008 You say get rid of the UAW? Why because they make too much ? So Tell us how much is a worker worth, as I ask in My post above. I would like to know what you would give them $5.00 , $10.00 an hour. What benefits do you give them if any? No one wants too answer that question . They just want too put the UAW down it seams. Do you get paid more than you are worth? What is a living wage to you $10,000, $20,000 a year? Some us would like to know your answer. I get paid $37,853 for teaching and undoing what most parents have screwed up and cant get a grip on these days. Which is far less than what the job is worth....and guess what Im unionized. the same twits that f***ed me over in my contract so that they can get the collective agreement bonus they were promised by the board. So dont even go there. The Auto factory worker salary is what....average $43,000.00 year....if you want to argue about states..... here is a link.... http://www.simplyhired.com/a/salary/search...o+Manufacturing Bailout for Automakers The folks looking for the money are pinning their failures upon the "credit industry failures". Yet in 2007, the CEOs of the US Automobile Manufacturers earned upwards of $12 million in bonuses above their salaries. Bonuses for failure - and the Credit Industry is to blame? There is no indication of change or admission that they have been and continue to squander what money they have. Before one cent of my children's and grandchildren's income is mortgaged for the billions necessary to help the auto industry our lawmakers should make certain that a restructuring of salaries and retirement benefits is in the hands of the People. That would be the prerequisite. These folks should not be on the breadline with their hands out to retire in a way that the folks who are bailing them out cannot be. They must be willing to give it back, take living salaries, not excessive ones, and forego the bonuses for executives. Instead we hear how the "Average hourly salary of a UAW worker is $74. vs. the average hourly salary of a Japaness Auto Manufacturer in the US at $48". Are our lawmakers serious? Not only will the bailout come from the sweat of the American worker, but they want the ones who are making the least to GIVE BACK? By the way. Those AVERAGE hourly wage rates are meaningless. They are top heavy. The average UAW worker on the assembly line makes about $57,000 a year, with any available overtime and before taxes. Are the folks that represent us going to sell our futures to help an industry who refuses to be restructured before one cent is loaned to them or worse, granted to them? Chrysler is on the breadline for the second time. The first time, the bonds were all paid back. But Chrysler also "paid back" the US citizens who bailed them out by building the then largest automobile manufacturing plant in the world in Mexico and closing plants nationwide in the US. Did they think we'd forgotten? So you know what We cut the UAW out along with the CEOs and executives and lower the cost down....guess what...the big 3 may get the heads out of thier full moos and make a profit.....You want to be greedy ...I dont feel soory for you. If the average is$57000 a year, thats almost $20000 more than what I make with a university degree and the s**t I have to fix
Harry P. Posted December 16, 2008 Author Posted December 16, 2008 Ok, guys, here's the deal: Even though I'm the one that started this thread, I think it's time to close up shop here. By now, I think that everyone who has wanted to add their opinions to this topic has had the chance to do so, and I for one am glad you all participated, no matter what your opinion. I think it's been a great thread with a lot of valid (and some not so valid) points made, but ultimately we're going to have to "agree to disagree". I think it's best we get off our soapboxes now and go back to talking about little cars instead of big ones. Thanks to all for a great discussion!
Recommended Posts