MODEL CAR CONTESTS AND CLUBS.

[chris coller]

Man oh man, so many good points here. My head is spining! I also agree competition brings out the best and drives you to take anything you do the next level. That is all healthy to me. Now not everyone has that mantality though. There will always be winners and losers, people that feel great and other that have feelings hurt. Sad thing is, it's a part of life.

There are far more thing worse in life than not winning. Most of us can walk, talk. and and do pretty much what we want when want. Think of those less fortunate. All this being reminded by my mother yesterday after a less than stellar week.

I enjoy the fact of sitting down in my living room watching hockey or some movie and being totally entranced by what I am working on. And then taking it to contests and club meetings and showcasing my skills and new build. Bottom lining it here I agree everyone likes to feel like a winner but it doesnt get handed to you. How would any of you feel if a judge just walked up to you and just handed you trophy with out looking at anyone elses builds? Do you believe it was earned? That is what competition is for.

Contests for me are motivation! Have fun and keep building. Sorry for being redundant!!

[Raul_Perez]

...Me personally, I would like to see an article about and builds by people like Art anderson, George Hernandez

(George53), Raul Perez, Bill Geary, Anthony Rios, ScrappyJ, Cal, Vanagon84, and on and on...

Thanks for the mention, Dave, but if you really want to see what I'm up to (or any of the other builders on the west coast like you and I), come to the NNL West in March. I, (like most of my model building friends), come to the shows more for the social interaction, sharing of ideas, seeing old friends and just having fun than we do for the trophies. To tell the truth, I give all of my trophies away to the local Cub Scouts for them to use as awards for their annual Pinewood Derby event.

Yes, I too have seen bias at many of the contests. Sometimes it's for a judge's friend; sometimes it's because you installed the correct number of rivets to all the right places; sometimes it's because the judges just like one type of car more than another...I really don't care. I'm just there to have fun!

Later,

[Fuel Coupe]

Secondly, it seems that every few years we have a new group of modelers new to the scene with new work, new ideas and they garner alot of exposure for their efforts. While that is fine, it can get very discouraging for modelers to go to shows and know they will be competing against so and so with their projects that are filled with machind aluminum, photoetch, and practically everything else on the market. Now, don't get me wrong. I love models detailed to that extent and I also enjoy undertaking such projects from time to time. But let's face it people, not everyone has either the talent or the money to invest in builds of this magnitude. Why not have a class for those that love to throw everything but the kitchen sink into their builds and have classes for the "regular" builders who like to build with a little added detail, but not to the extreme others so choose to build? I know if I was going to a show and was going to end up competing against a project that could practically start up and run on it's own and all I had was a kit built with maybe some underhood and chassis detail, I would think twice about going in the first place.

And, y'all can say what you want, but we ALL go to contests with the underlying hope that we may walk away at the end of the day with some hardware showing our efforts were appreciated and rewarded. While it may not be THE driving force, it is still nice to be recognized by your peers for your work and efforts. Otherwise, why go to the contests in the first place?

Brian, I dont fully agree with this statement. I have entered contests that had a "pro Class" and several cans of worms get opened with these. one is the question comes up "who gets put in what class" due to the "how much is enough" my meaning is how much photoetch or billet does it take to be considered a pro. In my book anyone can buy photoetch and hang it on a car or billet for that matter. I call that check book building (and Im VERY guilty of it) and there is always someone who wants to cry because someone has too much "stuff" on their model. all the while here comes another builder who sctrach builds everything on his model but because it doesnt look like "jewerly" he gets to compete in the regular class.

I always get the feeling when "pro classes" are introduced its a way to push some models out of a class into their own so everyone gets a chance. Well its been said here before that were grown and not everyone is going to win.

I scratch and checkbook my models and guess what I don't always win. Matt LeBlanc REFUSES to build anything for contests other than box stock and he cleans house everytime. Wins way more than I do(hes even beat out a few checkbook models too. What Im saying is these are contests and everyone should come away with something more than a trophy. Gain a new skill technique or whatever.

Give the judges what they want...

[FloridaBoy]

Guys,

I'll bite!!!!! Considering the level of building and the support and assistance why don't we have an informal competition between our cars, er, at least photos of them. I would consider it an honor and privileged to have my car included in the fleet of cars that guys build on this forum.

Let me do some thinkin' and figgerin' and come up with a real SIMPLE format, time frame to put on the table to get some sort of thing going. Right now, I ain't thinking of trophies or hardware, but maybe keep it open in three classes, Stock, Custom/Rod, and Competition and I will supply my judging sheets. What we can do is Judge Ourselves, maybe? And between everything, close the contest when we get 100 entries and fight each other like a pack of dogs, then go out and have a beer. Maybe like NNL pick the top 15 -- 5 each in each category, or a percentage based on the number of entries. Just want to get something started.

Gregg, is there someway you can change my available attachment space, as I just used 4 pictures months ago, and I am all used up.

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman

[Randy Kern]

Dave Zinn's idea of a 'Reader's Rides' section in the magazine is a good one. Also, Gregg could possibly do a feature on an 'Under Glass' selection from the forum in each issue. As far as contests, I'm happy if I have a magazine photograph any of mine . People's choice judging isn't always the fairest, but I'd rather have it that way anytime. The NNL type events are my favorite for socializing, learning, meeting new people, and just relaxed fun.

[CAL]

That sounds like a good idea, I have many awards, plaques, trophies and ribbons, I'd much rather be in a mag than get another award, etc. For me it was never about the awards. I just liked to see all the other models and maybe pick up a tip or two, learn a new techique, or be inspired to build something in particular.

I agree, peoples choice isn't always the fairest, but seems to work out the best over all.

[LoneWolf15]

Yep !

I'm back at it and still reading and thinking on it at the same time. I'm going to try and approach this from a diffrent angle , to explain what the contest modeler goes up against , to those who do not compete. In other words , don't judge a man until you have walked for a few miles in his shoes . I want each and every one of you to remember this . Without the contests , there would be no contest annuals to purchase , slobber over , or , garner ideas from for our next builds ! That being said , here are a few personal experiences of mine that I have encountered at the shows. I will not mention any show by name , only the state that they were held in , thus protecting the identity of the guilty parties !

I placed first in the street machine catagory at a show in Pa. This put me in the running for the Best of Show catagory. My car was now one of 12 , vying for the award. A car that placed 3rd in the street machine class was chosen for the Best of Show award . The car had a minimum amount of detail done to it , the paint job had a clearly visible thumbprint in the paint job under the clear coat , and the Bare Metal foil work looked like it had been applied with an axe . In short , it did'nt even come close to the other 11 finalists . The reason it was chosen ? The individual had followed a recent article in S/A and made the car's headers from solder . That was the only reasoning behind the judges decision. Stupid! Me , I laughed it off , some others reacted a bit diffrent , to say the least !

I attended another show in Pa , I overheard the judges argueing over a Batmobile entry for Best of Show. Now , I am not a great fan of this particular model , however it was an outstanding piece of workmanship , literally flawless! One judge stated that he hated the model , period ! There was no way that he was going to vote for a subject that he hated , not at " HIS " show. Talk about bias ! Personal prefrences should never enter into this arena!

I competed in a show in Ohio, I was up for a Best Paint award , I did'nt get it . The winner was a ' 66 Cobra that had not been painted , it had been polished out with an LMG kit. At the end of the show , the guy that had won the award tried to give it to me , God bless his heart . All he kept saying was that it was'nt fair . Every time we see each other , we start laughing and one of us will start whistling " Three Blind Mice" It's a great memory ! Ridiculous ! , but funny !

I'm not even going to mention the state on this one , too many people that I love and respect are involved. A large group of us had been attending this show for several years and had done quite well awards wise. At this show , we were booed when we went up to receive our awards , not loudly , but it was there! The following year , we were all shut out , awards wise . Cars that had been on the tables for 3 and 4 years running , some literally glue bombs , took home the awards . The whiners and complainers had won out . Mediocrity had won out . It's not about the awards on this one , it is about the show club cutting it's own throat. Cars that had more detail in the cockpit of a funny car chassis lost out to cars that when 4 of them put together, could'nt even come close , detailwise . Mediocrity was rewarded , hard work was punished , and the hobby ended up with a black eye. Just plain wrong !

Another boo boo by clubs , shutting down the show area while judging . Dumb ! John Q Public pays their admission to see the models , not wait around for up to 3 hours until the judging is finished . All a club has to do is announce that the judging is taking place and ask that people respect it and give them room to do their job . Most times after the judging is over , the contestants are starting to pull their entries . In reality , what does the paying public really get to see? Some of us travel quite a distance to these shows and have to get on the road . Who loses when we shut down the show areas like this ? Simply put, the hobby does . Stuffing or rigging the ballot boxes at Peoples Choice shows is beyond contempt ! I've seen this one too !

These are but a few of what I could mention examplewise. We do need the shows, they need to be uniform when it comes to judging , most of all , fair ! We all constantly need to be ambassadors to our hobby , you never know who or where the next Augie , or Duleba ,or Dave , etc , is going to come from . I guess it all depends on how they are initially received by us as a modeling community. Guys like Florida Boy and myself and others on this forum have been around since Moses was in short pants. There is a tremendous amount of knowledge available to those who want to learn , all you have to do is ask ! My personal forte , airbrushing with Testors enamels. I'm always around to talk about it. For those of you who have been told or believe that enamels are " yesterdays news" or worse yet , "garbage " , I have two words for you " Ask Gregg " I'm curious as to where this thread is going to go , but I'm liking it thus far ! Sorry this post is so long , I think Ken would be proud ! lol! Oh ! , one other thing ! Getting your model's picture in the magazine beats the hell out of an award any day !

The Old Man

Lone Wolf Custom Painting

[E St. Kruiser50]

Guys,

I'll bite!!!!! Considering the level of building and the support and assistance why don't we have an informal competition between our cars, er, at least photos of them. I would consider it an honor and privileged to have my car included in the fleet of cars that guys build on this forum.

Let me do some thinkin' and figgerin' and come up with a real SIMPLE format, time frame to put on the table to get some sort of thing going. Right now, I ain't thinking of trophies or hardware, but maybe keep it open in three classes, Stock, Custom/Rod, and Competition and I will supply my judging sheets. What we can do is Judge Ourselves, maybe? And between everything, close the contest when we get 100 entries and fight each other like a pack of dogs, then go out and have a beer. Maybe like NNL pick the top 15 -- 5 each in each category, or a percentage based on the number of entries. Just want to get something started.

Gregg, is there someway you can change my available attachment space, as I just used 4 pictures months ago, and I am all used up.

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman

Hi Ken

I must say I've really enjoyed reading your posts here and in other threads.

Although I haven't been able to take up a whole page yet of posting, thanks to your great example, I'm getting closer :lol:

I'm a little confused though about your suggestion for a contest this early in the discussion, when many of us are responding to our various reasons for dissatisfaction at times about contests, and attitudes.

To me it's kinda like jumpin into a 'PILE OF DENIAL" and just hopin' the problem will go away by itself, without more discussion here.

Now don't get me wrong, I like a good contest like anyone, but I think there are some ISSUE'S here that need to be discussed a little further, kinda why I brought this up, and the topic of a contest at this point to me is a distraction, when maybe we could be changing some things and some attitudes, by having some more dialogue first.

MAYBE A NEW THREAD SHOULD BE STARTED FOR A CONTEST that you mentioned, as I think at this point it's way "off topic" here on this thread.

I hope this isn't offensive to anyone here, including you Ken, but I think we should stay focused and not get off on a " RABBIT S TRAIL" , and forget what we're talkin' about here.

If you guy's decide to do a new thread and start a contest, It'll be fun to watch and see all the great results. Just not ready for that YET myself.

Anyway, I look forward to more posts on the "ORIGINAL TOPIC" on "Bias or Fair at Contests and Clubs"

Thanks again everyone for your reponses - dave

Edited December 10, 2008 by Treehugger Dave

[Guest Davkin]

I've found this discussion very interesting myself, it's been a very reasoned discussion about a somewhat controversial subject which rarely happens! I wonder however what we are accomplishing. How many people here participating in this discussion are involved in the organization and management of contests? I'm just curious because if the people here are not the decision makers then I'm not sure the situation is going to change in the slightest from this discussion.....unless maybe Gregg takes the highlights of this discussion to create an editorial to be published in the magazine.

As for me I have had some influence with the local contests but up until now our club has only sponsored the automotive categories of IPMS contests. Starting next year we won't be doing that anymore and will be hosting our own automotive only contest so my influence will be greater on that contest, so this discussion may actually have an impact on how we run it. One thing that came up several times that I wonder about is the idea that the host club should not enter any models in the contest. We haven't followed this idea but maybe we should. I do however reject the idea that club members cannot judge impartially when fellow contest member models are entered into a category. I've judged along side nearly every judge in our club at one time or another and can with confidence say that they are as objective as any human judge can be. I do understand the perception is that there will be favoritism and that drives some modelers away, (even when it's not true at all.) so I think we should consider trying this at our new contest next year, however I'm concerned that there will not be enough entries, the local model car scene is not that active.

We do also plan on holding a club only contest where each member enters only one model and every member judges each model on a 100 point system and then the sheets are totaled up and average to determine how each model places. We're a small club, we can do that.

David

[E St. Kruiser50]

I've found this discussion very interesting myself, it's been a very reasoned discussion about a somewhat controversial subject which rarely happens! I wonder however what we are accomplishing. How many people here participating in this discussion are involved in the organization and management of contests? I'm just curious because if the people here are not the decision makers then I'm not sure the situation is going to change in the slightest from this discussion.....unless maybe Gregg takes the highlights of this discussion to create an editorial to be published in the magazine.

As for me I have had some influence with the local contests but up until now our club has only sponsored the automotive categories of IPMS contests. Starting next year we won't be doing that anymore and will be hosting our own automotive only contest so my influence will be greater on that contest, so this discussion may actually have an impact on how we run it. One thing that came up several times that I wonder about is the idea that the host club should not enter any models in the contest. We haven't followed this idea but maybe we should. I do however reject the idea that club members cannot judge impartially when fellow contest member models are entered into a category. I've judged along side nearly every judge in our club at one time or another and can with confidence say that they are as objective as any human judge can be. I do understand the perception is that there will be favoritism and that drives some modelers away, (even when it's not true at all.) so I think we should consider trying this at our new contest next year, however I'm concerned that there will not be enough entries, the local model car scene is not that active.

We do also plan on holding a club only contest where each member enters only one model and every member judges each model on a 100 point system and then the sheets are totaled up and average to determine how each model places. We're a small club, we can do that.

David

Hi Dave

Good to hear from you again.

What I hear you and a few others here talking about is the 'MECHANICS" of judging, numbers or systems.

What I've been talking about is more of the "HEART", or the "INTENT" of the event and the people doing the shows.

No matter how hard contest promotors try to make things look honest, it doesn't take long to catch on to "Bias". If there is a way and people want to be biased, they'll figure out how.

Basically, what I see, is there are two choices here really, at least to me, sorta like in a marriage.

In a marriage the two of you talk and decide how things will go to make you happy, and the other person happy, so that hopefully, both of you together can make the relationship work, hopefully pretty equally for both. Discussion and compromise

Or you can choose to be selfish, and destroy the relationdhip like over 50% of marriage partners do now. IE - Divorce rate = It's all about ME !!!

Now - MODEL STUFF

SIMPLE CHOICE as in marriage.

WILL WE BE SELFISH AND WATCH THE HOBBY SUFFER OR PRETTY NEARLY END, because IT'S ALL ABOUT ME, or will we talk about it and figure out how to CHOOSE THE IMPORTANCE OF THE HOBBY.

To me this isn't rocket science, it's just about choice.

Do we want to continue being childish and selfish, or do we want to grow up???

I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just sayin' what too many people are afraid to say. Is it all going to stay the same or are we going to try to change it?? It's up to all of us to decide.

This thread may just get buried, like all the others, but at least I said something instead of just whinning .

Thanks all - dave

[Guest Davkin]

I'm a little confused now as to what the purpose of this thread is then. You started this thread talking largely about bias and how it's supposedly ruining the hobby and it seems to me the discussion here has been largely about how to minimize that bias. Now it seems you're saying we just need to make sure we're not selfish whiners, and I do agree with that but I'm not sure how a message forum thread can address that issue. This is really a personal issue, not really something that can be directed by a group.

Maybe it helps to highlight those that are good examples of people that demonstrate the proper attitide such as you have with Bob Paeth and I did with Dave Cummins and Jerry Cardinal. GSL even has an award that kinda does this, the "Moose is on the loose" (in memory of Andy "Moose" Kallen) award. By being an example ourselves and pointing out others that do as well is the only way I think we can have an influence. I suspect most of those on this message forum already have this "heart" that you talk about, or at least most of those that have participated in this thread. The problem I guess is when it comes to contests the selfish whiners often become the organizers and drive the good people away. I've see where just a single person that becomes president of a club can on his own through this poor attitude destroy what had been a significant regional event until it's attendance is so poor it gets eliminated because he drives everybody else away. I'm not sure what can be done about that. Unforunately it seems to be a pretty rare thing that someone who aspires to leadership positions is actually a good leader.

David

[Guest 66dragfreak]

I dunno Dave...I'm getting confused here. You asked for our opinions and we gave them, as we perceived the question posed to us. Now, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not seeing where any of the responses showed a childish "It's all about me" attitude. We have all addressed issues that seem to be plaguing not just one show, but a number of shows. That in itself says something right there.

Nobody has gotten childish in their remarks or bashed anyone or any single event either. But, like it or not, all of the issues brought up here SHOULD be addressed at every event BEFORE an issue arises. It's the need to be PROACTIVE rather then REACTIVE when it comes to addressing potential issues. If we turn a blind eye to known problems, then we are fools for not trying to correct those issues before problems arise.

How many times has an event, or worse yet, an individual gotten a "black eye" from an issue that, had it been addressed beforehand, could have been avoided entirely?

Putting on a model show is not an easy task, no matter how big or how small the event. Any club who takes on that task has a ton of work ahead of them to ensure the event runs smoothly and goes off with a minimum if glitches. Unfortunately, no matter how hard an event tries, there is inevitably someone who is going to feel slighted for whatever reason. The addage you can't please all the people all the time applies here perfectly. However, as long as the majority of attendees are satisfied with the event, then in my book, it's a success.

Now, if you want to talk about bias, I have seen it more times than I can count. But, what if I was to tell you that one of the worst offenders of bias in this hobby is in the position where maximum exposure is given to the modelers themselves? This is a true experience that happened to me personally at a large event a few years ago. While unloading one of my models for display at the show, the edior of "X" magazine strolled up and began looking over the model. he was looking for models to photograph for "his" magazine, as he so eloquently put it. I continued with my unpacking, not paying him much attention as he examined my work. After several minutes he said to me, and I quote, "That is one terrific model you've got there. Too bad it will never see the pages of a model magazine." I asked him why and he proceeded to tell me that because it had alcohol sponsorship on the car it wasn't a "politically correct" subject to photograph. Hmmmmm...well, being the kind of guy I am, I couldn't let that excuse go unchallenged. I ducked into my bag and brought out the previous issue of "his" annual edition and opened the book and showed him not one, but severl models on the pages, one being a detailed article adorned in tobacco sponsorship. Amazingly, he didn't have an answer for me and stormed off and we haven't spoken since.

Now, I'm not trying to turn this into a bashing thread or post. But, what I am saying is that when there is bias at the top of this hobby, it will inevitably trickle down to the entrants of the shows. Now, I'm sure if I kissed his lower orifice and buttered him up, I probably would have gotten my work in "his" periodical. I don't work like that. If my work isn't good enough to stand on it's own, then there's nothing I can say to make it look any better in the beholder's eyes.

In the end, it's not about people acting like "crybabies" or whining about this or that. It's about actual issues being addressed and hopefully rectified at future events. If you build for the competiton, that's great. But something my Daddy said to me when I was growing up always stuck with me. "No matter how good you are, how strong you are, there is always going to be someone bigger, better, stronger than you are." In the end, it's up to each of us to decide how we react to the circumstances presented to us at any given event or show. Remember people, it's just a hobby!

[E St. Kruiser50]

Well everyone, thanks for taking the time to think about this and post some of your thoughts.

That was the original intent was to get people thinkin' and talkin'.

Sometimes this sort of thing can make a difference, sometimes not, but I don't think it ever hurts to try.

A lot of new people out there who'll be new to this hobby in the coming month's and years, and it sure would be a shame to see it ruined for them .

If a little bit of this goes back to a club, or helps someone to be a better part of the modeling community, then speaking out here may have helped some.

Thanks again - dave

Edited December 11, 2008 by Treehugger Dave

[Matt LeBlanc]

When we have our contest we have teams of 3 judges.Most of the time it is 1 member from our club and 2 members from 2 other clubs.That way there should be no bias in the judging.We do enter our own contest but we do not judge any cat.that we are in.We have been told that our contest is judged fairly.Thats why we always have a very good number of models on the tables.As TxRat said i mainly build out of the box because i don't have a lot to spend on photo etch etc.My biggest win came this year when my out of the box 49 merc.took best in show at an IPMS contest.Was i shocked HELL yes.I thought there were some better models on the tables.I guess you never know until you try.I to have seen the bias at contests.I will never enter a certian contest in a major city near me due to the bias.

[FloridaBoy]

Matt,

Be proud you are building out of the box, and you need not to rationalize it, just enjoy what you are doing. Factory or Box stock are highly contested categories and some of the finest models I have seen come from those areas. It challenges you to work within a very strongly structured set of rules and guidelines, seek what you do best, like painting, interiors, paint detailing, causing effect without mods, and so on.

The absolute best paint job I have ever seen in my life, came from a Box Stock category. It was a pearl white, 41 Plymouth, and on the trunk was an airbrushed devil which only became visible when peered from certain angles.

With regard to IPMS, my experience is their criteria of judging is focused more on realism, workmanship and finish, rather than the value of a type of car, like hot rod, and really seems not to care about working features, wiring, or overall effect. I guess they focus on the model and its build, rather than the replica or its effect.

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman

[Matt LeBlanc]

That's why i like box stock.It makes you pay attention to the basics.IPMS is that way too.When judging they want you to look at the basics first than the rest.Matt

[Jantrix]

The fact that this topic is here to chat about says a lot. I have only entered four contests. Each one was my first experience with that group of modelers. Two out of four I came home with awards and in one that I didn't, I ended up in a SAE contest annual (much cooler). Yet I enjoyed each one immensely. Hanging with like minded folks is the absolute limit.

I have done one IPMS contest here locally and I really liked that. The club members judged the contest (myself included) and were allowed to enter models, yet they could not judge a catagory they were entered in. The armor guys judged the sci-fi, the air craft guys judged autos, so on and so forth. I did not see a single winner I did not think was worthy. I guess I have been lucky.

If you are in the unfortunate situation with a local club that awards only their members, then you have three choices. Stay home, work harder and enter anyway, or bring your models for display only and mark them as such. And when asked why they are not entered in the contest be honest- brutally honest. Regardless of whom you tell it will get back to the club president I promise you. Then you take it from there. Nothing like a quiet confrontation to get your point across.

It is an unfortunate truth that no matter what, we are going to find clubs like this. And from what I've heard the grander the trophy/plaque/ribbon the more likely it is for non-members to get the shaft.

[coopdad]

We have discussed various ways of making contests more fair, more praise/exposure for hard work, and more fun. BUT we are still bandaiding the ultimate problem: how to deal with the people that caused this tread to be started. My guess is that the people that have posted to his thread are not the problem. It is the people that are not reading the info and thinking about how their actions effect the masses. The clubs that are wanting better themselves and their events have brainstormed and come up with some if not all of the options we have come up with. BUT adding classes for every skill level, age group, model class, stock or modified, pro or amateur, etc. all don't matter if we let the few bad apples to drag us all down with their negativity. What we need to be talking about is how to deal with these extreme people BEFORE they work their way into positions (such as club president or judge) where cause maximum damage.

I hesitate to say it is not possible as we are all human, but I have been wrong before.

Is it as simple as asking anyone involved with an event to sign (and read) a mission statement that reminds them of what is truly important... the goal of the event? At the minimum it would hopefully remind guys bad behavior will not be tolerated (even if there is not much that can be done about it). That should at least tone down the "middle ground" over reactions. I don't think there is much one can do about the guys that have those high end public temper tantrums other than making notes and not allowing them to compete again.

John

[buba39]

some of the shows and contest i have been in seem to be more for the perfect models and pro builders there dont seem to be any for people who may not build like the pros u see in scale auto and other mag

i whoud love to see a kid with there frist model they have built win then some one who is a pro and has won every time they show the kit

i whoud love to see more pics and contest for people who are not pro builders show more models with not so perfect paint jobs

[LoneWolf15]

Amen ! , Bluesman, Amen !

There are far too many products out there on the market , readily available , for anyone to settle for an "okay " paint job ! Polishing kits , airbrushes , Novus products , etc , are out there for a very fair price. Instead of buying a ton of kits, invest in some worth while equipment , and practice ! If you srew up , into the brake fluid it goes , start over again. I was up at Detroit , watching guys spend hundreds of dollars on resin kits , that can't paint to save their lives ! Yet , they'll complain about it to everyone who will listen . Your paint work is the first thing that is noticed on the tables , modelers need to realize this and address it ! Work at it . It does'nt take a rocket scientist to learn how to do it , just some concentration and focus. The perfect scenario in my mind when it comes to the whiners at the show....

As soon as the first word of complaint leaves an individual 's lips , the show stops! The 1st -2nd -and 3rd place winners from that person's class are immediately sat on an empty table. The complaintant 's car is then placed on the table with them . Let the fun begin! Ahhhh ! , In a more perfect world , I guess ! Who knows , they might have a legitimate gripe , this would force the judges to really play fair ! On the other hand , it would shut the whiners up for good.

As for me , I'm going to continue to build like an idiot , meet new people , make new friends , and continue to learn as I go . Concerning the youngster's comments on pictures of non perfect paintwork , I just don't see the Kahuna releasing a show car issue titled " Not So Perfect Show Car issue " I just don't see it selling !

Donn Yost

Lone Wolf Custom Painting

[Art Anderson]

First off Dave, I don’t know you…I don’t know how you approach your/our hobby, or even how you begin the process of a model build. Having seen the work that you have displayed here, I have tremendous respect for the craftsmanship and quality of everything you have presented here. Your models would surely hold up under the scrutiny of the toughest of judges. I don’t think you need to be wringing your hands over this situation as much as you are though.

I don’t think there has been an excess of negativity toward the builds I see posted. Sure, many are not as high a quality as yours and most of the guys here, but so what? I am happy to see guys posting their work here. It takes courage to post a build here if you have any doubt of your ability. You never know how it will be received. My mother used to always remind me that “if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at allâ€â€¦.well, that is a little too idealistic today, but I don’t think it is necessary to tell someone who has slaved over a model for days or months that their effort was not worth their time. I think we can always find something positive about most all builds, and besides, a little well placed criticism can help a younger less experienced builder learn and improve. Our skin is at least that thick, I think.

Only WE are the true important critic of our own work. I say this all the time; I build cars for my own pleasure. I do not enter cars in any “Judged†shows, not because I am afraid or fearful I will not “cut itâ€. I don’t enter because that is not important to me. I only entered the on line contest for the “Beautiful Roadster†because I happened to complete a roadster, two weeks before the contest, that I was not aware of, was taking entry’s. I built my roadster for me and no one else. If others see it and enjoy it, well that is just great.

I, as many of you guys, consider myself an artist. My “real†art is hanging on my walls. I don’t enter those art show/contests either…this is my hobby, and will always be one of my hobby’s. I built model cars long before I found this forum and I will build after it is gone (I hope it never goes away though). I don’t judge my builds by the number of responses I get to a posting. Sure it makes me feel great when a build is well received, but, I know in my heart if a build that I completed is right. I know if I hit it…I know if I successfully challenged myself and completed the build as I envisioned it….and that is all that matters. Forget the politics and forget the favorites, forget childish sniping and most of all forget the negativity……Do it all for yourself….for your personal pleasure…..I think building is a personal pleasure that is shared only at the completion of the journey.

Peter,

Well said! Now, allow me to add my 2-cents worth here:

I've been a member of several model clubs over the years (currently I have membership in both an IPMS Chapter, and a Model Car Club here in town, as a founding member of both groups (IPMS Chapter was begun in August 1976, the model car club in January 1991). In addition, I was a member of a large (and the nation's oldest continuously going) model car club in the Chicago area for a number of years (lotta long days and late nights with that one, often not getting back from those 140 mile trips to club meetings before sunup on Sunday mornings, once a month!). I've also guested at meetings of the oldest model car club in Indianapolis on more than one occasion.

Yes, there are times in any club or organization when things don't go as smoothly as most all of us would like. People who are really intense about the hobby or activity that the club represents can easily boil over into cliques, even fairly nasty fallings out, but I've also seen those events fade over time, and the group come back together, out of enjoyment of a common passion. Every organization you can think of will be made up of those for whom the organization is a major social force in their lives, with close friends, and solid fellowship at least among groups within the group. While ideally, we all would prefer a situation paraphrasing the Elks Lodge motto: "If I cannot speak well of a fellow model car builder, I will not speak ill of him". Frankly, that's a pretty good watchword, IMO.

As for contests, my personal thing is that I don't often enter, but if I do, it's something I feel proud enough to show off; if it's good enough, I show it, but if I don't think it's good enough, chances are you will never see it. But what if I do go, and take along an entry? I'm not trying to sound at all self-righteous here, but I seriously do not care a whit, win, lose or draw. It hasn't always been that way with me though. I'm old enough to have come through the hobby shop contest thing in the late 50's, early 60's, when as a teenager, I was intensely serious--so much so that it hurt if I didn't win, even hurt if I thought I might not have done anything good enough to possibly win. Perhaps by luck, or whatever, I have several dozen trophies from those years, along with some bumps and bruises that left their marks for quite a while as well.

After about a 15-year hiatus, I entered an IPMS contest, about the time that IMPS chapters starting adding cars to their list of contest classes. At first, I won, mostly because there weren't many car builders represented, but then a dry spell hit--and that bugged me no end. In some respects, I believe I did have an inflated view of my own model building skills at the time. But, after one rather bruising defeat handed down by the judges, I simply had to look at myself in the mirror, and decide: Could I compete without losing my cool, not having the fun of fellowship with fellow modelers of any and all stripes or not? It was at that point in time that I decided to just go, enter something, then step back observe, almost be a wallflower (for those who think they know me, my saying this must seem awfully incongruous, but in many ways it's true. I tend to wander a show floor by myself, almost as if lost in my own thoughts, as I study the works of others, perhaps engaging in a moment or two of conversation along the way. In entering into conversations, I have to fight my own urge to offer advice, and have to remind myself frequently that "advice offered is seldom taken". I have worked pretty hard, due to this, to ask questions of others, as in "how did you do that?", compliment a model to the builder, or point out a model that impresses me, to others whether I know them or not.

While at times still, I might be disappointed at the results of an entry of mine, I like to think that I no longer let that get to me, just accept that while I thought it was good enough, others did not, and let it go right then and there.

As for building anything for a particular contest, I haven't been able to do that since High School. I find model car building too intense at times to discipline myself to meet a particular deadline. For me, that takes too much of the fun out of a hobby I have enjoyed for now 56 years. Instead, I kind of go by that old winery commercial tag line, "I'll finish no model before it's time". And, then, only if the result is good enough in my book, does it ever get seen outside of a few pics on Fotki, or a club show-and-tell. If not, then not.

Art

[Guest Davkin]

I love your attitude Art. I treat contests much like you do and strive for the same attitude you have towards your own model building, I'm still working on that.

David

[Guest 66dragfreak]

I remember a time not so long ago when I was heavily influenced by several different factors when it came to contests. What was the "hot" subject at the time, what level of detailing was "expected" if you were to be considered "competitive"...

If there's anything I've learned over the decades I've been involved in this hobby, it's one thing. If you live to build to someone else's expectations, you had better prepare yourself for a TON of letdowns and discouragement. There was a time when I was also consumed with the "building to win" mentality and, after several years of building for trophies, I found I had alot more half started and discarded models than I did trophies, ribbons or plaques. I remember a time when, if the littlest thing went wrong on a project, I tossed the whole kit and dug into something else. All I managed to accomplish was accumulating a bunch of half built kits and alot of frustration.

I think personally, the longer we spend in this hobby, the more we tend to "mature" or hone our focus and talent to what REALLY inspires and drives us in this hobby. I attend very few shows anymore, partially due to the lack of venues in this area and partially because I just prefer not to go. With the internet and sites such as this available at our fingertips now, it's much easier to show our work to a much larger audience and not have to worry about sinking a bunch of money in travel, food, or lodging to attend an event. Something else I've learned is that fact that not all the work shown in places like this will garner a response from people. But, if you stop to think about it, when you entered your last show and spent your day at that event, how many people actually sought you out, came up to you and complimented you on your work? Chances are, very few. Unless you stood beside your entry for the whole show, you most likely didn't hear much at all in the way of compliments regarding your work and efforts. So, what is the difference if you post your work on a forum and you don't get a bunch of responses from people? Just look at it like it's a show and while you were strolling around looking at other modelers' work, you missed people wanting to compliment you on your efforts. Pretty simple concept really and one I wish I had adopted a long time ago.

We can debate the issues plaguing today's shows until the cows come home, (does anyone really know how long that is?). But, I have gotten to the point where as long as I am pleased with the end result and my efforts, who the hell cares what joe-blow thinks about it? If I'm not pleased with the end result, why? What could I have done better? What would I change if I had the chance to build this model again? Take those answers, tuck them away in your modeling mindset and the next time, draw upon your past successes and failures to build a better model than your last one. In the end, the shows will sort themselves out. If there's a ton of bias and pejudice, then those shows will slowly fade into the sunset. But, don't make the mistake of blaming a show or event, or worse yet, other modelers for you not winning an award, especially if your work is not up the standards of the ones that beat you. Not only will you ostricize yourself from many members of the hobby, but you will only use those excuses for reasons not to improve your skill. When that happens, nobody wins.

I know my thoughts aren't as eloquent as Art's and some others who have posted here, but I hope I made at least SOME sense here...