1964 Pontiac Starter Question.

[StevenGuthmiller]

Anybody have an answer as to which way the starter would mount on a '64 389?

 

Got to looking at the instructions for the Revell '66 GTO, and it shows the starter mounting "upside down".

At least what I consider upside down.

With the solenoid on the bottom.

 

Anybody know if this is actually a thing?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

[Ace-Garageguy]

I noticed that in the kit as well.

I'm mounting it solenoid up on the 389 in my Pontiac-powered Ferrari 250 GTO build.

Photographic evidence: '65 389 tri power engine.

Starter with solenoid heat shield

'64 Bonneville

 

Edited March 4, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

AND: IIRC, there are two different possible starter mountings, depending on year.

One has the unit bolted to the bellhousing with horizontal bolts.

The other mounting has vertical bolts that go up into the block, like a Chevy V8.

But either way, it's solenoid up.

Edited March 4, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

'64 GTO, solenoid up.

[StevenGuthmiller]

Hmmm.

Looks like I may have to find a different starter.

Of course I’ll want to check exhaust manifold and frame clearance first.

 

Thanks for the photos Bill.

I wasn’t having much luck.

 

 

Steve

[Ace-Garageguy]

Just FYI, it looks like the starters were bellhousing mounted thru '64, and the solenoid was up.

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/pontiac-starter-question.1231889/

Edited March 4, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

6 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

Looks like I may have to find a different starter.

Of course I’ll want to check exhaust manifold and frame clearance first.

Yes, I had to find something else too, some unknown parts stash bit.

I also had to modify that engine block considerably to look more like a real one, particularly the oil filter arrangement, and the casting ears on the lower rear. But most of what I did won't show once it's in the model.

[Raoul Ross]

I've probably replaced a thousand starters in my life time and all solenoids are on top of the starter. I assume this keeps the wiring from routing to the bottom of the starter and prevents it from being cought by... something!

Even with Ford starters, which have the solenoid mounted on a fenderwell, the field-coil actuated plunger is on top of the starter.

[StevenGuthmiller]

14 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Just FYI, it looks like the starters were bellhousing mounted thru '64, and the solenoid was up.

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/pontiac-starter-question.1231889/

Just weird.

 

The Moebius '61 and the AMT '62 Pontiac kits both show the solenoid down as well.

 

 

 

 

Steve

 

Edited March 5, 2023 by StevenGuthmiller

[Ace-Garageguy]

4 minutes ago, Raoul Ross said:

I've probably replaced a thousand starters in my life time and all solenoids are on top of the starter. I assume this keeps the wiring from routing to the bottom of the starter and prevents it from being cought by... something!

Even with Ford starters, which have the solenoid mounted on a fenderwell, the field-coil actuated plunger is on top of the starter.

I agree...but every now and then you'll see an oddball.

[Ace-Garageguy]

8 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

Just weird.

The Moebius '61 and the AMT '62 Pontiac kits both show the solenoid down as well.

Weird indeed. 

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 minute ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Weird indeed. 

Maybe a 421 HO thing?

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

[Ace-Garageguy]

Just a thought...apparently, according to a little Q&D research, there's not a lot of one particular Pontiac starter around. 

I just don't know what other GM starter housings could put the solenoid on the bottom.

I just do not know.

Edited March 5, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

Apparently, Pontiac starters can be a real PITA to get the right one for a particular engine/gearbox combo.

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/pontiac-bell-housing-interchange-post-65-vs-pre-65.1225164/

Something I'll remember if I ever work on another one.

See how much real-world stuff you can learn from building models?   

Anyway, here's another solenoid up installation.

Edited March 5, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[StevenGuthmiller]

I'm beginning to think that there might be enough "grey area" on this to just say the heck with it and use the one I have.

That's going to be the case unless I can find a decent substitute.

 

 

 

Steve

[Ace-Garageguy]

2 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

I'm beginning to think that there might be enough "grey area" on this to just say the heck with it and use the one I have.

That's going to be the case unless I can find a decent substitute.

Well, at least you won't have to worry about hot-start problems from the solenoid being so close to the headers...   

[Raoul Ross]

1 hour ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

I agree...but every now and then you'll see an oddball.

Allis Chalmers? And a solenoid for the... solenoid? Wierd-Ness Monster!

Edited March 5, 2023 by Raoul Ross
grammer

[StevenGuthmiller]

I found a starter from an MPC 1969 Olds that looks like it should work.

just need to check clearances.

 

 

 

Steve

[NOBLNG]

43 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

I found a starter from an MPC 1969 Olds that looks like it should work.

just need to check clearances.

 

 

 

Steve

You could probably scratch build a starter from evergreen in short order too?

[Tabbysdaddy]

Mid 90s F150s had dual solenoids, although they call the remote one a relay. It's called a solenoid on the earlier ones even though it's the same part.

[Bills72sj]

I have personally changed starters on my and my buddy's Pontiacs a number of times over the years. 67-72 is definitely driver's side, solinoid UP. Headers make this job a serious pain. I solved the inherent hot-start problem on my present Grand Prix by incorporating a fender mounted Ford starter solinoid and using 3/0 WELDING cable. For the ultimate detail, there is a small metal strap that holds the forward end of the starter to the block. It compensates for the 2 main starter bolts being aligned in the same plane. The Chevy starters I have seen have the two mounting bolts staggered. Since you are dealing with a 1964 engine, they may be some differences.

[Ace-Garageguy]

2 hours ago, Bills72sj said:

... Since you are dealing with a 1964 engine, they may be some differences.

My understanding at the moment is that thru '64, starters mounted to the bellhousing, and in '65 in the big cars, the mounting was changed to the vertical holes in the block.

Also, apparently some earlier blocks had the holes drilled for the vertical starter mount bolts (even though they didn't use them), and some didn't.

And also apparently, if you swap a non-drilled block into a car with a trans not designed for mounting a starter, there's no place to put a starter without drilling and tapping the block...and I've seen a few references to an adaptor that can apparently mount a starter to a later gearbox.

Also, apparently, auto trans starters won't fit manual gearbox cars, and there are references to other possible engine/gearbox/starter swap problems.

None of this has anything to do with models, but I think it's interesting there appears to be such a potential can of worms regarding old Poncho V8 starters.

[Jack L]

14 hours ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

Maybe a 421 HO thing?

 

info on HAMB board 62-63 HO & Super Duty engines had a upside down starter to clear special exhaust manif