Kind of an I'm bored question

[Aaronw]

I got to thinking last night, typically most high performance cars from the Big 3 fall into the Muscle car or Pony car category (I said most, obviously the Viper and Corvette are exceptions being sports cars). Where would the turbocharged cars of the 80's / 90's fit in? I'm thinking Mustang SVO, Taurus SHO, Probe, Dodge Shelby Charger etc. Being 4 and 6 cylinder cars they don't really fit in with the V-8 powered Muscle / Pony cars, and don't really fit my image of Tuners (well maybe the Probe does) and are not really sports cars since they can actually get people in the back seat (have a back seat).

[Jantrix]

Well most folks wouldn't consider the big 50's Dodge's, Desoto's and Chrysler's muscle cars even with their big Firedomes and Hemi's but they certainly were the predecessors to the muscle cars we love so much. I'm thinking the 4 & 6 cylinder cars you mentioned were the predecessors of modern tuners. Evolution, gotta love it.

[Nick F40]

Evolution IS awsome, they are considered tuners. I know plenty of turbod Colt's, Omnis, Shadows, vans, etc. that can beat, traditional "muscle" cars. Look at Grassroots Motorsports and their $200X challenges. Import guys still get no respect from some, even though the Fast and the Furious trend went away, it's all about cheap, usefull, functional power and form now.

The SHO's were really hot in it's day and still are but yeah all those cars listed were the beginning tuners, Golf GTI, Omni GLH, Dodge Conquest, they were hot cars, like the Omni abd Golf, they are the original hot hatches besides the Mini Cooper, these were the little hot rods, light weight, fast, cheap, great handling.

Edited March 13, 2009 by Nick F40

[Harry P.]

Since the cars you mentioned were the hot setups available then, I'd say they were the "muscle cars" of their day. Not what we traditionally think of as muscle cars, but in those days, they were about as close as you got...

I owned a 1984 Daytona Turbo Z... Garnet red over silver, turbo, five speed, ground effects, etc. Back in the 80s it was a pretty cool car, compared to what else was available. And fast! (that is, until the turbo gave out)...

And yeah, it had a back seat. But don't try actually sitting back there unless you're about 3 feet tall!

[moparmagiclives]

If your trying to compare them, you realy can't. But if you sit back and look at what has happened to the world of automotive technology, you can see where its been and where its going, And where they do evolve from one to the next.

During the muscle car craze it was all about the cubic inch, with the fuel control and the material advances we've had, the same C.I.D. can be made with 4 cyd's and 14 psi of boost. look at the eco-tec in the cobalts or the srt-4's in the neon and caliber. 300 hp from 2.4 liters. Not even to mention inports or euros. I like to think the "tuners" and such are standing in the evolutuionary line just as the flathead ford and 265/283 chevy did before the hemi as well as other big blocks of the 60's and 70's. The cars of the 80's just suffer from living in some of the worst times of emission and fuel milage standards with limed testing and technology, giving them poor performance and bad reputations. But they are what they are. Has anyone seen a direct injection gas engine? Pretty impressive,but even more so is the compression fired gasoline engines coming very shortly.Talk about a new generation.

Edited March 14, 2009 by moparmagiclives

[James W]

Interesting that only one of the cars you listed was rear wheel drive, there were other rear drive turbo cars at that time, and all were relatively low horsepower cars.

They pre-date other 'tuner' cars. They are not muscle cars, in the classic sence. I believe they are their own group in between.

Like the 55 chev, not a muslce car but superior to it's common contemporaries, these cars must be treated on there own.

I've seen people with two or three Shelby Daytonas in their yard waiting to be revived. I would love to play around with a Chevy Sprint turbo or Suzuki Swift 16 valve.

If they don't completely rot out and disappear they will be back on the street some day, but don't expect much aftermarket help on the restoration.

[Spike]

even though the Fast and the Furious trend went away

did you not hear about the new F&F movie thats opening up april 3rd? except this one has mostly american iron in it; 73 camaro, 70 road runner, 70 charger, 72 turino, 70 chevells,grand nationals, mid 80s chev trucks, late 60s/early 70 chev trucks, and lots more

[MikeMc]

GNX V6 turbo YEP a BUICK and its rear wheel drive, ask Buddy Ingersoll

http://www.competitionplus.com/index.php?o...0&Itemid=24

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_Regal#G..._T-Type_and_GNX

[Blue coyote]

I wouldn't have a clue about the others listed, but as much as I dislike that whole Mustang era (the foxbody), the 79 and up Mustang turbo cars were the top of the Pony car heap in their day. Not all "pony" cars are V8 muscle cars. Muscle car and pony car are not always the same thing.

Dang it, I just cannot belive I just defended the status of the Fairmont-based Mustangs as pony cars. I feel dirty...

Edited March 14, 2009 by Blue coyote

[Nick F40]

GNX V6 turbo YEP a BUICK and its rear wheel drive, ask Buddy Ingersoll

http://www.competitionplus.com/index.php?o...0&Itemid=24

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_Regal#G..._T-Type_and_GNX

The GNX, was THE muscle car of the 80's, that was quicker than some "sports cars"

The Swift, Mazda 323 GTX, and some others...

[Aaronw]

GNX V6 turbo YEP a BUICK and its rear wheel drive, ask Buddy Ingersoll

http://www.competitionplus.com/index.php?o...0&Itemid=24

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_Regal#G..._T-Type_and_GNX

I can't believe I left the Grand National and GNX as etc. Those very much fit in with the SVO, unlike some of the cars I have an easier time accepting as pre-tuners (Probe, Charger).

I guess I see Tuners as more refined (for lack of a better word) while the SVO, and Grand National seem to have more of the in your face brute force attitude I associate with muscle cars even if the technology is basically the same. I just have a hard time using Tuner and Mustang in the same sentence.

I wouldn't have a clue about the others listed, but as much as I dislike that whole Mustang era (the foxbody), the 79 and up Mustang turbo cars were the top of the Pony car heap in their day. Not all "pony" cars are V8 muscle cars. Muscle car and pony car are not always the same thing.

Dang it, I just cannot belive I just defended the status of the Fairmont-based Mustangs as pony cars. I feel dirty...

I never would have thought Mustang II fans would look down on any version of the Mustang, I figured you guys were a pretty accepting group.

Actually in fairness I have learned most of the derision the II suffers was generated more recently. People have forgotten how little there was to work with the mid 70's. You know an SVO engine in a Cobra II would make a rather interesting sleeper.

[Blue coyote]

Its kind of a backlash some of us (Mustang II guys) feel. We've been getting ragged on by the "classic" crowd for decades, and then we end up hearing it all parrotted back from the generation after as well. The dumbest part is that 95% of what they keep bringing up is pure meadow muffins, and they don't figure it out even when you lay the facts out for them. A common quote from the Mustang II enthusiasts? "there's more Falcon or Fairmont in yours than Pinto in mine" (I believe that other than fasteners and clips, the Pinto and Mustang II only actually share a couple square feet of rear floorpan and about three mechanical parts...)

My own car is anything BUT a sleeper. Cammed 302 with a Holley 650 and tunnel ram, planned T56 swap, 4.10 Trak/Lok, 295/50R15's on the back (with a set of 28x10.5 drag sliks sitting in my buddy's shop...) with 225/50's under the front.

Oh, and its a Black on Black T-top King Cobra

[Aaronw]

Its kind of a backlash some of us (Mustang II guys) feel. We've been getting ragged on by the "classic" crowd for decades, and then we end up hearing it all parrotted back from the generation after as well. The dumbest part is that 95% of what they keep bringing up is pure meadow muffins, and they don't figure it out even when you lay the facts out for them. A common quote from the Mustang II enthusiasts? "there's more Falcon or Fairmont in yours than Pinto in mine" (I believe that other than fasteners and clips, the Pinto and Mustang II only actually share a couple square feet of rear floorpan and about three mechanical parts...)

My own car is anything BUT a sleeper. Cammed 302 with a Holley 650 and tunnel ram, planned T56 swap, 4.10 Trak/Lok, 295/50R15's on the back (with a set of 28x10.5 drag sliks sitting in my buddy's shop...) with 225/50's under the front.

Oh, and its a Black on Black T-top King Cobra

Well there is the base motor too, but the SVO used the 2.3 liter as well so that is not exactly a bad thing and the Pinto never offered a 302 V8 .

I think a lot has to do with the time, you know looking back at a Mustang only putting out 139 hp with a V8 look bad, until you realize the Corvette of the time only had 165 hp standard and 200 hp optional. The mid 70's was not the best time for music or cars and the Mustang 2 didn't get the high power motors of the early 70's like the Corvette and Camero, or the less emmision choked and turbo charged 80's like the next serious of Mustang.

I originally picked up a Mustang II kit kind of as a joke. I don't have the fanatical love for the car you obviously do, but as I learned a bit about it I've realized its rather poor image is not really deserved. Obviously yours shows with some aftermarket work even the 70's can be overcome.

[FujimiLover]

When does a muscle become a tuner and can a modified muscle be classified as a tuner? As in another thread, I mentioned that a "tuner" doesn't necessarily refer to rice-burners.

[Aaronw]

I can only speak for my impressions, and I admittedly don't know that much. Cars in my real life are nothing more than basic transportation and 4x4s are the only "performance" vehicles I can actually claim any personal knowledge of (proud owner of an FJ55 "Iron Pig").

I consider Tuners to be performance enhanced compact cars, typically Japanese but not exclusively. I personally would not consider a muscle car or Pony car a Tuner even if it had the same common modifications, it would just be a modified Muscle or Pony car. That's just me though and one of the reasons I asked the origianl question.

[FujimiLover]

Can the term "tuner" be applied to exotics? Such as in the case of the Koenig Specials or Gemballa?

[Aaronw]

I don't even know what those are, so...

However I would consider the small BMWs (2002, 325 etc), Mercedes (230) etc as tuners if done in that style. I would definately include some of the newer small US built cars, Cobalt, Neon etc in the Tuner category, so I realize they are not all Japanese. However as I said above I am hardly a source of knowledge on the subject, this is just my barely informed opinion.

[FujimiLover]

Well, I think tuner can be applied to anything that's been modified. Although, it is confusing when the average public who hears the term tuner think's of Honda's with the angree Bee syndrome.

Shouldn't there be a classification between Muscle Car tuning, "Import Tuner Tuning", and Exotic tuning? The German based outfit I mention alot, K-S, refers to themselves as exotic car tuners, but I doubt their known in the "tuner" world.

Please see their web site for more infomation on their killer car's.

http://www.koenig-specials.com/homepage%20...%20englisch.htm

[Nick F40]

he's right, some don't know. Sport Compact Car called the new turbocharged Cobalt SS the new Integra Type R.

I don't even know what those are, so...

However I would consider the small BMWs (2002, 325 etc), Mercedes (230) etc as tuners if done in that style. I would definately include some of the newer small US built cars, Cobalt, Neon etc in the Tuner category, so I realize they are not all Japanese. However as I said above I am hardly a source of knowledge on the subject, this is just my barely informed opinion.

heck yes!

[moparmagiclives]

I look at the term "tuner" as a discription of what your doing. I.E., pluging in a lap top to your stand-a-loan controler and tuning the fuel map for more top end.Bolt on performance parts have been around as long as the people cutting on factory parts have, but "tuning" didnt realy come around untill the more complex control systems started poping up I would say. I would consider the SHO Taurus more of an import or a crotch rocket than a muscle car though, what with the insane reving yamaha parts. As far as the others, I dont know there was much to tune on the SVO Mustang or the Grand National of that time was there? Pretty primitive ECU's I think. I'm sure Jet or some one makes a chip but again its bolt on.

Lap tops and data link connectors dont mix well with 4 barrels, mine keeps getting stuck in the choke.

[Aaronw]

Koenig, bb, AMG, Lorinser, Brabus and a few others were known as "tuner companys" back in the early '80's ,, LONG before the term was applied to rice rockets with fart-can exhause pipes. They were hi-end exotic stuff usually out of Europe, priced well out of the means of most people.

That's where the term "tuner" originally came from.

Well there you go, thats why I like this place I can always learn something new. Not the most tactful way of saying it, but yeah the "fart can" fits my impression of what makes a tuner. I guess I've been a little narrow minded.

I look at the term "tuner" as a discription of what your doing. I.E., pluging in a lap top to your stand-a-loan controler and tuning the fuel map for more top end.Bolt on performance parts have been around as long as the people cutting on factory parts have, but "tuning" didnt realy come around untill the more complex control systems started poping up I would say. I would consider the SHO Taurus more of an import or a crotch rocket than a muscle car though, what with the insane reving yamaha parts. As far as the others, I dont know there was much to tune on the SVO Mustang or the Grand National of that time was there? Pretty primitive ECU's I think. I'm sure Jet or some one makes a chip but again its bolt on.

Lap tops and data link connectors dont mix well with 4 barrels, mine keeps getting stuck in the choke.

Thats kind of what I meant about Tuners being more refined. I see tuners as using the "work smarter, not harder" method, while musclecars are more of the "get a bigger hammer" school of problem solving. Both get the job done in different ways.

[FujimiLover]

Koenig, bb, AMG, Lorinser, Brabus and a few others were known as "tuner companys" back in the early '80's ,, LONG before the term was applied to rice rockets with fart-can exhause pipes. They were hi-end exotic stuff usually out of Europe, priced well out of the means of most people.

That's where the term "tuner" originally came from.

That was exactly my thought as back in those day's that's what I've heard long before my interest in Jap's and the like. I think the tuner companies and companies like Koenig do it best though as they do it more from racing experience than hobbies.

[Robert81]

I would love to play around with a Chevy Sprint turbo .

I love messing with My Turdo Spunt. Not a lot of aftermarket parts, so ingenuity is high on the list of virtues required.

I think the 80's and early 90's turbo, and other factory performance cars where the first efforts into making an affordable car that was fun to drive, yet good on gas.

I'ld like to mention, most, but not all, turbo and performance front drive cars of the 80's sold on the Big 3's lot was a rebadged Import. My 87 Turbo Sprint has a plate under the hood that says "Body By Suzuki".

[Joe Handley]

Thats kind of what I meant about Tuners being more refined. I see tuners as using the "work smarter, not harder" method, while musclecars are more of the "get a bigger hammer" school of problem solving. Both get the job done in different ways.

If you want to use that "bigger hammer" as a description, the Turbo Dodges weren't really tuners then.....They weren't too far above "bigger hammer" that when it came to repairing or modding them

let's not forget the american tuners, like Calloway, Lingenfelter, & Panoz. they have been building parts & turn-key products for enthusiasts for a long time before "tuner" came to describe anyone who slapped an obnoxious exhaust on an imported car.

Technically, wouldn't that also make Shelby (both Ford and Dodge cars), Mr. Norm, Yenko, and Nickey cars all tuner cars as well then?

[FujimiLover]

............................sure, why not?