Clear Coating Question

[Chevy II]

I airbrushed this 4 days ago with the little Testors bottle. I plan to top coat with Testors Extreme Lacquer Wet Look Clear. 
Questions are:

Is it ok to top coat now? Enamel should be gassed off by now.
Should I wet sand before I top coat. How long after I top coat should I wait to wet sand or polish?

[DJMar]

The small Testors bottle, as in enamel? Lacquer over enamel is a no-no. Enamel over lacquer is ok.

You can't use a lacquer over that without risking a paint disaster.

 

[yh70]

as DJ said YOU DO NOT want to do that...

[gman]

Enamels take a very long time to cure and are very particular with their "recoat window." The thickness of your paint coats and what you used to thin each layer will affect how it behaves. I'd consider using an enamel gloss coat.

While the old school Testors glosscoat lacquers were fairly inert and technically could be used over enamels either shot immediately after the enamel or shot after a lengthy cure time, I'd avoid the One Coat lacquer. Instead, test spray a plastic spoon with the same paint and test some clear coats over top of the enamel before setting yourself up for a science experiment on your painted body.

What type of thinner did you use to spray the Testors enamel? If you used Model Master airbrush thinner, your paint job will behave like a straight enamel paint job. If you used lacquer thinner, it may be more resistant to hotter top coats. Testing will be best compared to potentially destroying your paintwork if you are otherwise happy with how it turned out (and it looks pretty good to me).

[DJMar]

50 minutes ago, gman said:

Enamels take a very long time to cure and are very particular with their "recoat window."

This is an excellent point. Even if the OP goes with an enamel clear coat, I don't think 4 days is enough cure time for a multi-coat enamel finish to be truly dry.

Personally, I will leave an enamel color (not primer) paint job alone for 10-14 days (yes, even after using a dehydrator) before I even think about color sanding, polishing, or clear coating. That's probably a bit of overkill, but I've had a few harsh lessons working on dry-but-uncured enamel paint jobs in the past.

[gman]

It has been a long time since I used Testors enamels- I have gravitated to hobby and automotive lacquers as they seem to be easier to polish out and hold up to handling better. If I was to "try them again for the first time," I'd probably cut them with lacquer thinner for airbrushing. I used to do so for chassis and engine parts as the cure time was reduced, but I have yet to try the Yost technique on a car body.

[Dave G.]

With enamel in building my classic era cars, I never clear coat. First the finish is pretty much ready for display out of the airbrush, thinning with lacquer thinner. If not, wait a month and buff it then. That's just my way. In real those cars were never clear coated. I use Colgate tooth paste and a bees wax polishing formula to polish enamel color coat if needed, no clear. But it has to be well cured.

Mostly these days I've changed to Tamiya LP and other lacquers though. I also can get an exceptional finish from Rustoleum 2x paints, decanted, lacquer thinner added and airbrushed. It flows right out into the 30's to 50's look if put over a super smooth finish. Shoot it up near 30psi with a Paasche H and medium tip. .The H is popular for this because it will actually flow the 30 psi, many modern designs are restricted, you could crank them up to 50 but still only get the restricted airflow, usually under 25 psi. The H will flow 50 if one wanted 50.. For the record, I've shot Createx straight from the bottle for T Shirt type art work, at 40psi. I like Createx for models too, but use the additives and thinners or my own substitute thinner. Createx 4050 UV protected clear can be buffed to look like lacquer. But you gotta understand the Createx system.

[TransAmMike]

On 10/12/2024 at 5:06 AM, Dave G. said:

With enamel in building my classic era cars, I never clear coat. First the finish is pretty much ready for display out of the airbrush, thinning with lacquer thinner. If not, wait a month and buff it then. That's just my way. In real those cars were never clear coated. I use Colgate tooth paste and a bees wax polishing formula to polish enamel color coat if needed, no clear. But it has to be well cured.

Mostly these days I've changed to Tamiya LP and other lacquers though. I also can get an exceptional finish from Rustoleum 2x paints, decanted, lacquer thinner added and airbrushed. It flows right out into the 30's to 50's look if put over a super smooth finish. Shoot it up near 30psi with a Paasche H and medium tip. .The H is popular for this because it will actually flow the 30 psi, many modern designs are restricted, you could crank them up to 50 but still only get the restricted airflow, usually under 25 psi. The H will flow 50 if one wanted 50.. For the record, I've shot Createx straight from the bottle for T Shirt type art work, at 40psi. I like Createx for models too, but use the additives and thinners or my own substitute thinner. Createx 4050 UV protected clear can be buffed to look like lacquer. But you gotta understand the Createx system.

Instead of starting another new Createx thread, I'm using this one to ask this question. 

Dave you may remember I do use Createx a good bit and have used your "blend" but usually use their other supporting products.

One product I have not used is the 4050 clear, well until today.   After several coats, last few being wet coats, It dried to what I would call a semi-gloss finish.

Will it polish out to a gloss finish and how long should I wait until I do polish it?

I'll be looking forward to ya'll's comments.

 

 

[Dave G.]

12 hours ago, TransAmMike said:

Instead of starting another new Createx thread, I'm using this one to ask this question. 

Dave you may remember I do use Createx a good bit and have used your "blend" but usually use their other supporting products.

One product I have not used is the 4050 clear, well until today.   After several coats, last few being wet coats, It dried to what I would call a semi-gloss finish.

Will it polish out to a gloss finish and how long should I wait until I do polish it?

I'll be looking forward to ya'll's comments.

 

 

Try the Colgate toothpaste idea, assuming your finish is pretty smooth to begin with. Both the original formula and the peroxide baking soda Colgate work well, and some folks have done this for ages. You may need a drop or two of water as it wants to dry on you. Usually 2 applications. Then Find the clean part of an old T Shirt and dry buff ( my old Ts are usually spattered with artist paints lol)  Then what I do is polish lightly with the bees wax polish I have.

This week I experimented with some plastic spoons.I did a few, but the two contenders went this way: Both got a coat of Mr Surfacer 100. One got a color coat of Emerald green Craft Smart craft paint, I think destined for a 51 Chevy. In the craft paint I put about 15% 4030 Createx and 15-20% 4021 reducer ( it's Createx's latest reducer they sent me). It was well covered in 3 coats, I dehydrated that for 30 minutes. The next day I put down 4-5 progressively wetter coats of 4050, thinned 20% with 4021. Dehydrated that 30 minutes, then it sat 2 days. I polished it with the Colgate and then bees wax. You can see the ceiling lights in the finish and it's polished lacquer smooth. Absolutely beautiful color and finish , for anyone who likes green anyway.

I did the exact same thing with the second spoon but the color is pearlized blue Createx paint. This has an even deeper shine, I think because the color itself is a deeper blue than the green is green. That color may be destined for a 58 Chevy build, not sure yet. But same thing, hand rubbed lacquer smooth with gloss that reflects the details of the ceiling lights.

The key to this is not the hazy look or semi gloss but that it's a smooth finish, then the Colgate will work. If it's nubby or orange peal you need to cut the surface with actual pads of 5000 grit and higher, then polish. I always end with the bees wax polish, just a dab on a rag.

Don't over thin the 4050, use a decent sized tip and raise your pressure to get nice atomization and flow. It will work with my formula thinner as I've done it many times, but might start out a bit clearer with either actual 4011 or 4021 Createx thinner. The Createx thinners that have water in them is iodized water. The closest of theirs to mine is 4013 but I use distilled water, a touch of denatured alcohol and isopropyl alcohol, then the retarder. Dennis was smart with his 4021 and that has retarder in it too, but no alcohol. If you use 4011, put a bit of retarder in it or the paint mix.

For use in Createx paints and my old thinner formula you have I believe, Mike. I've since added that bit of denatured alcohol. I went by the Createx MSDS and saw there was a second alcohol in the formula, the closest I could get to that type alcohol was denatured, and I keep that here anyway. Don't displace the difference with less iso but the water. It's not much different but the paint is going to flow more on the surface it's sprayed to. If you're using 30% ISO and you want to try this, then add about 10% denatured, up to 15% at most. My new formula works in many craft paints, and we know the old does. So does Createx 4011 fwiw.

Also, if you ever see the Createx 4021 out on a store shelf someplace, it's worth a try. It's just being distributed in the last couple of weeks. I like that reducer too.

Edited November 23, 2024 by Dave G.

[TransAmMike]

4 hours ago, Dave G. said:

Try the Colgate toothpaste idea, assuming your finish is pretty smooth to begin with. Both the original formula and the peroxide baking soda Colgate work well, and some folks have done this for ages. You may need a drop or two of water as it wants to dry on you. Usually 2 applications. Then Find the clean part of an old T Shirt and dry buff ( my old Ts are usually spattered with artist paints lol)  Then what I do is polish lightly with the bees wax polish I have.

This week I experimented with some plastic spoons.I did a few, but the two contenders went this way: Both got a coat of Mr Surfacer 100. One got a color coat of Emerald green Craft Smart craft paint, I think destined for a 51 Chevy. In the craft paint I put about 15% 4030 Createx and 15-20% 4021 reducer ( it's Createx's latest reducer they sent me). It was well covered in 3 coats, I dehydrated that for 30 minutes. The next day I put down 4-5 progressively wetter coats of 4050, thinned 20% with 4021. Dehydrated that 30 minutes, then it sat 2 days. I polished it with the Colgate and then bees wax. You can see the ceiling lights in the finish and it's polished lacquer smooth. Absolutely beautiful color and finish , for anyone who likes green anyway.

I did the exact same thing with the second spoon but the color is pearlized blue Createx paint. This has an even deeper shine, I think because the color itself is a deeper blue than the green is green. That color may be destined for a 58 Chevy build, not sure yet. But same thing, hand rubbed lacquer smooth with gloss that reflects the details of the ceiling lights.

The key to this is not the hazy look or semi gloss but that it's a smooth finish, then the Colgate will work. If it's nubby or orange peal you need to cut the surface with actual pads of 5000 grit and higher, then polish. I always end with the bees wax polish, just a dab on a rag.

Don't over thin the 4050, use a decent sized tip and raise your pressure to get nice atomization and flow. It will work with my formula thinner as I've done it many times, but might start out a bit clearer with either actual 4011 or 4021 Createx thinner. The Createx thinners that have water in them is iodized water. The closest of theirs to mine is 4013 but I use distilled water, a touch of denatured alcohol and isopropyl alcohol, then the retarder. Dennis was smart with his 4021 and that has retarder in it too, but no alcohol. If you use 4011, put a bit of retarder in it or the paint mix.

For use in Createx paints and my old thinner formula you have I believe, Mike. I've since added that bit of denatured alcohol. I went by the Createx MSDS and saw there was a second alcohol in the formula, the closest I could get to that type alcohol was denatured, and I keep that here anyway. Don't displace the difference with less iso but the water. It's not much different but the paint is going to flow more on the surface it's sprayed to. If you're using 30% ISO and you want to try this, then add about 10% denatured, up to 15% at most. My new formula works in many craft paints, and we know the old does. So does Createx 4011 fwiw.

Also, if you ever see the Createx 4021 out on a store shelf someplace, it's worth a try. It's just being distributed in the last couple of weeks. I like that reducer too.

Wow Dave, that's quite a dissertation you sent and much appreciated 😀

I do remember reading somewhere about using toothpaste to polish but never considered it and as for bees wax that's sure a first to me.

I did see recently the 4021 thinner and want to pick some up.  It's been a while since I have been to HL as they do have Createx paint but I'd bet it's not likely they would have it.  Spraygunner.com has it on line for $3.95  plus of course the shipping.

As for the paint on the model I will be polishing, it's pretty darn smooth.   I don't have a Dehumidifier so I know I will have to wait some time before attempting to polish.  Soonest I will be doing so will be Monday and that will be 3 days since the painting.  I would assume that's a long enough time.  

So, is the Bees Wax just  that or is it an actual Bees Wax Polish?

[Dave G.]

On 11/23/2024 at 12:45 PM, TransAmMike said:

Wow Dave, that's quite a dissertation you sent and much appreciated 😀

I do remember reading somewhere about using toothpaste to polish but never considered it and as for bees wax that's sure a first to me.

I did see recently the 4021 thinner and want to pick some up.  It's been a while since I have been to HL as they do have Createx paint but I'd bet it's not likely they would have it.  Spraygunner.com has it on line for $3.95  plus of course the shipping.

As for the paint on the model I will be polishing, it's pretty darn smooth.   I don't have a Dehumidifier so I know I will have to wait some time before attempting to polish.  Soonest I will be doing so will be Monday and that will be 3 days since the painting.  I would assume that's a long enough time.  

So, is the Bees Wax just  that or is it an actual Bees Wax Polish?

Spraygunner is good and the 4021 worth trying. Maybe you need a couple more items that could buffer the shipping. HL did not have the 4021 a few days ago. They work on a big back stock, I remember it took forever for the 4011 to show up. Now they have big bottles of that. But I spoke with one of the owners of Createx a couple of weeks ago and he was saying he thinks HL is getting ready to cut Createx products down. Like Candy 2o may go and a few things that don't move.

The bees wax is actually a furniture polish/wax made by a company named Howard. Sometimes I just use that. Just be sure you have plenty of 4050 on there. Both the toothpaste and the polish what ever you use, take a little off. And be careful at edges that you don't burn through. You don't have to use bees wax but it sure shines things up. Some folks like the car waxes, I use this. It's furniture polish but I we use something else on furniture here. It's a big bottle probably take care of 10 modelers for a lifetime. You only need little dabs of it. Another guy on here uses Meguiar as his final step with Createx.

 

Edited November 24, 2024 by Dave G.

[TransAmMike]

22 minutes ago, Dave G. said:

Spraygunner is good and the 4021 worth trying. Maybe you need a couple more items that could buffer the shipping. HL did not have the 4021 a few days ago. They work on a big back stock, I remember it took forever for the 4011 to show up. Now they have big bottles of that. But I spoke with one of the owners of Createx a couple of weeks ago and he was saying he thinks HL is getting ready to cut Createx products down. Like Candy 2o may go and a few things that don't move.

The bees wax is actually a furniture polish/wax made by a company named Howard. Sometimes I just use that. Just be sure you have plenty of 4050 on there. Both the toothpaste and the polish what ever you use, take a little off. And be careful at edges that you don't burn through. You don't have to use bees wax but it sure shines things up. Some folks like the car waxes, I use this. It's furniture polish but I we use something else on furniture here. It's a big bottle probably take care of 10 modelers for a lifetime. You only need little dabs of it. Another guy on here uses McQuire as his final step with Createx.

 

Yep, I do try to add some items to an order to absorb some of the shipping cost.  I will definitely try the 4021. I have many various automotive polishing products from when I got on an automotive detailing kick a while back and I like to use them including some McGuire stuff. 

I am concerned about what you said about  taking a little of the clear off.  I a few light coats of the Pearl Createx and about 4 pretty heavy coats.

This is what it looks like unpolished

[Dave G.]

1 hour ago, TransAmMike said:

Yep, I do try to add some items to an order to absorb some of the shipping cost.  I will definitely try the 4021. I have many various automotive polishing products from when I got on an automotive detailing kick a while back and I like to use them including some McGuire stuff. 

I am concerned about what you said about  taking a little of the clear off.  I a few light coats of the Pearl Createx and about 4 pretty heavy coats.

This is what it looks like unpolished

That looks to be a beautiful finish, Mike ! It should polish right up. No sanding needed. Is that with my thinner formula ? 4021 will give you just a bit more gloss before polish. Either way you should get a shine on there.

If you are concerned with your 4050 layer being too thin, you could put down a couple more coats. But if you have 4 progressively wetter coats on there, it's probably enough. You're not gonna burn through with tooth paste like compound would though. Control is in your hands.

Speaking of control, I like to shoot a control piece before my body. Even if just a plastic spoon. Sometimes kits have a second hood, that's ideal.

Edited November 23, 2024 by Dave G.

[TransAmMike]

1 hour ago, Dave G. said:

That looks to be a beautiful finish, Mike ! It should polish right up. No sanding needed. Is that with my thinner formula ? 4021 will give you just a bit more gloss before polish. Either way you should get a shine on there.

If you are concerned with your 4050 layer being too thin, you could put down a couple more coats. But if you have 4 progressively wetter coats on there, it's probably enough. You're not gonna burn through with tooth paste like compound would though. Control is in your hands.

Speaking of control, I like to shoot a control piece before my body. Even if just a plastic spoon. Sometimes kits have a second hood, that's ideal.

The paint is Wicked Color Pearl Purple mixed about 50/50 with 4011, about 10 drops of 4030 Balancing Clear and a few drops of Liquitex.

The 4050 is mixed about 60/40 with the 4011.

The finish is pretty smooth with maybe a couple "burrs" so I might just do a light rubdown with a  12000 pad.  Way too many times when I try sanding a finish I rub thru somewhere. Drives me crazy😄

You said you do a light sanding sometime.  Dry or wet??

[Dave G.]

12 minutes ago, TransAmMike said:

The paint is Wicked Color Pearl Purple mixed about 50/50 with 4011, about 10 drops of 4030 Balancing Clear and a few drops of Liquitex.

The 4050 is mixed about 60/40 with the 4011.

The finish is pretty smooth with maybe a couple "burrs" so I might just do a light rubdown with a  12000 pad.  Way too many times when I try sanding a finish I rub thru somewhere. Drives me crazy😄

You said you do a light sanding sometime.  Dry or wet??

I've done wet and dry on 4050. Mostly I haven't needed to sand it though. I wouldn't want it to soak too long wet personally, but it will wet scuff and wipe dry in intervals just fine... It scuffs pretty easy dry actually for small areas. If you just have a few nubs, maybe just knock them off dry.

I remember I painted a 40 Ford Sedan one time. Nice finish was building till this chunk of dirt landed smack center of that long roof. I scuffed it down when dry, shot two more good wet coats and the finish was even nicer in the end. What seemed disastrous at the time turned out for the better. That was craft paint and Tamiya X22.

 

[TransAmMike]

1 hour ago, Dave G. said:

I've done wet and dry on 4050. Mostly I haven't needed to sand it though. I wouldn't want it to soak too long wet personally, but it will wet scuff and wipe dry in intervals just fine... It scuffs pretty easy dry actually for small areas. If you just have a few nubs, maybe just knock them off dry.

I remember I painted a 40 Ford Sedan one time. Nice finish was building till this chunk of dirt landed smack center of that long roof. I scuffed it down when dry, shot two more good wet coats and the finish was even nicer in the end. What seemed disastrous at the time turned out for the better. That was craft paint and Tamiya X22.

 

Thanks for the advice.  I was considering the X22 but I had the 4050 so decided to give it a try.  

This paint job was a repaint after stripping the first job off.  I decided to use the Rustoleum Acrylic Lacquer after the first job and it checked the paint all over.  I'm calling it my stupidity because I had remembered this same issue before on a paint job after using the Rustoleum.  On the other had, I used it with good results on another Createx paint job.  I think the Createx pearls just aren't compatible with the Rusto stuff.

[Dave G.]

11 hours ago, TransAmMike said:

Thanks for the advice.  I was considering the X22 but I had the 4050 so decided to give it a try.  

This paint job was a repaint after stripping the first job off.  I decided to use the Rustoleum Acrylic Lacquer after the first job and it checked the paint all over.  I'm calling it my stupidity because I had remembered this same issue before on a paint job after using the Rustoleum.  On the other had, I used it with good results on another Createx paint job.  I think the Createx pearls just aren't compatible with the Rusto stuff.

Craft paints will take the hotter clear coats, like Rustoleum products. In my experience, pearlized Createx will not. In my tests they wrinkled right down to the primer or in one case the plastic.

You won't think you needed X22 once you get the 4050 buffed up and polished. It will or should look like a good lacquer job. And it's UV protected. How you get there is up to you, I just present one way. There is a guy on youtube with an explanation of how he gets his 4050 to shine like a lacquer paint job too. He goes the polish pad, then Novus and finally wax routine.

That said, I re did the polish on the green spoon I mentioned earlier. I wet scuffed with a fine polishing pad. Then two more applications of tooth paste and one bees wax polish. I must say it made a difference using the scuff routine and the color now as deep as the blue spoon. I never wore through the 4050, as I never saw any color in the polishing routine.

 

Edited November 24, 2024 by Dave G.

[TransAmMike]

6 hours ago, Dave G. said:

Craft paints will take the hotter clear coats, like Rustoleum products. In my experience, pearlized Createx will not. In my tests they wrinkled right down to the primer or in one case the plastic.

You won't think you needed X22 once you get the 4050 buffed up and polished. It will or should look like a good lacquer job. And it's UV protected. How you get there is up to you, I just present one way. There is a guy on youtube with an explanation of how he gets his 4050 to shine like a lacquer paint job too. He goes the polish pad, then Novus and finally wax routine.

That said, I re did the polish on the green spoon I mentioned earlier. I wet scuffed with a fine polishing pad. Then two more applications of tooth paste and one bees wax polish. I must say it made a difference using the scuff routine and the color now as deep as the blue spoon. I never wore through the 4050, as I never saw any color in the polishing routine.

 

Very true about the pearl Createx, what you said is what happened on the purple paint job.  

I'll have to see if I can find the youtube video.

Thanks, and have a great day!!

[Dave G.]

46 minutes ago, TransAmMike said:

Very true about the pearl Createx, what you said is what happened on the purple paint job.  

I'll have to see if I can find the youtube video.

Thanks, and have a great day!!

 

[Dave G.]

You can do as you wish but I blow past about half of those grits with the tooth paste.

[TransAmMike]

28 minutes ago, Dave G. said:

You can do as you wish but I blow past about half of those grits with the tooth paste.

I did find and watched the video (kinda like watching paint dry😃) but I got through it.) 

So with the toothpaste, what do you rub it on with and I'm guessing you have to rince it off?

[Dave G.]

1 hour ago, TransAmMike said:

I did find and watched the video (kinda like watching paint dry😃) but I got through it.) 

So with the toothpaste, what do you rub it on with and I'm guessing you have to rince it off?

A lightly dampened cloth, old T Shirt etc.

Hah, I did the roof of a 60T Bird with paper towel.

Fully wet a corner of whatever you use and wipe off excess. Then wipe dry.

[TransAmMike]

38 minutes ago, Dave G. said:

A lightly dampened cloth, old T Shirt etc.

Hah, I did the roof of a 60T Bird with paper towel.

Fully wet a corner of whatever you use and wipe off excess. Then wipe dry.

Got cha, thanks Dave. 

[Dave G.]

55 minutes ago, TransAmMike said:

Got cha, thanks Dave. 

👍