johnyrotten Posted February 19 Posted February 19 Ford and pretty much any other automotive manufacturer wants the repair side of their product as well, more money for them. Make a product specialized enough that most won't attempt a repair, and get them on the back end as well. Ford seems to do this often. Look at the triton spark plug fiasco. Hats off to this guy for doing actual diagnostic work, and finding a perfect work around. That guy is an actual mechanic, not a parts changer. 4 2
RW033 Posted February 19 Posted February 19 Ford isn’t the only one doing non-serviceable relays, it is however interesting that you can’t just replace the fuse box separate from the wiring harness like other manufacturers 3
johnyrotten Posted February 19 Posted February 19 On 2/19/2025 at 9:28 PM, RW033 said: Ford isn’t the only one doing non-serviceable relays, it is however interesting that you can’t just replace the fuse box separate from the wiring harness like other manufacturers Expand 400 dollar fuse box vs 4000 dollar harness, plus labor. Built in profits. I call it built in obsolescence. I would bet they designed high dollar items with specific failure modes/points just to make it up on the back end. Why make it easy or cheap for Joe smoe backyard guys. 4
MeatMan Posted February 20 Posted February 20 And like the guy said, these days it takes months to get parts. Now you have to pay for a rental unless you're lucky enough to have a dealer that supplies loaners. Oh, but guess what, most of those loaners are only available for a couple of weeks free, then you have to pay. 3
Ace-Garageguy Posted February 20 Author Posted February 20 (edited) On 2/19/2025 at 9:49 PM, johnyrotten said: 400 dollar fuse box vs 4000 dollar harness, plus labor. Built in profits. I call it built in obsolescence. I would bet they designed high dollar items with specific failure modes/points just to make it up on the back end. Why make it easy or cheap for Joe smoe backyard guys. Expand If it's intentional and not simply incompetence, the evil goes deeper than that. Assume, in this case, the fuel pump relay lasts well into the second or third ownership. By that point, the vehicle may very well not be "worth" putting a $4000 repair into (and few "mechanics" today have the ability to pinpoint a problem, thoroughly understand it, and devise a cheap work-around like this guy), so the vehicle gets scrapped, taking an otherwise perfectly serviceable vehicle permanently out of the used pool. Edited February 20 by Ace-Garageguy TYPO 2 2
VanGoGo Posted February 20 Posted February 20 Thanks for sharing, I often have the youtubes going in the background when Im working on a model, (usually car related videos), I like a channel called Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics where the mechanic has skills and knowledge similar to the one you shared...only problem is they turn out to be way more interesting than the model and I don't get much built! XD Still cringe when I have to fix something on my vehicle...its a 1999, and like the owner...stuff is wearing out with age. 2
dmthamade Posted February 20 Posted February 20 Flying Wrenches guy is really knowledgeable with fords, one of the few on Youtube worth listening to. Pine Hollow Diagnostics is another fine one great case studies. Fords not alone in doing this, Grand cherokees had the fuel pump relay built into the TIPM/aka fuse box. Had issues meaning TIPM replacement, Chrysler had fix with new relay and harness to mount relay outside of bx, came as a kit. Cheap relays supplied had to replace 2.5-3 years. have lots of shiny new relay harnesses, just replaced relays. Nissans had similar faults, relays built in, IIRC sentras. There were other manufacturers with melted fuse boxes on relays, older vehicles we did bypass and external relays. GM trucks had faults with the fuse boxes, weird faults, we used to keep a few in stock. Buick Lucernes IIRC Melted rear fuse boxes along with sister GM products. Some car/trucks we could bypass circuits. On a selfish note, it is job security.... Don 1
Ace-Garageguy Posted February 20 Author Posted February 20 On 2/20/2025 at 3:26 AM, dmthamade said: Fords not alone in doing this, Grand cherokees had the fuel pump relay built into the TIPM/aka fuse box. Had issues meaning TIPM replacement... Expand I've encountered several vehicles that have idiot TIPM issues too. And again, as these vehicles age, they become "not economically viable to repair" in many cases. An old friend was going to junk her PT cruiser, literally, because at 203,000 miles, lots of small things were failing, and she trusted idiots, hackers, and crooks. Even though I'd saved her thousands of dollars on the little car over the years she owned it, she still took it to a shop that told her it needed a new transmission. So she bought a clean low mileage Celica for 10 grand and called me to help her dispose of the PT. I suspected there was nothing actually wrong with the trans internally, and there wasn't. So somewhat chagrined, she ended up just giving the PT to me, and I've since fixed everything but one (probably) TIPM-related problem. It's a great little car otherwise, FAR from being mechanically worn out, starts, runs, and stops fine except for the one problem I'll finish sorting out when the weather gets a little nicer. Between incompetent engineering, planned obsolescence, and lousy dealerships and shops, it's amazing anyone gets anywhere in older cars at all. 3
stavanzer Posted February 20 Posted February 20 I'm driving an '87 Toyota Camry, 109 Thousand miles. It sounds like it might be needing to have the CV joints replaced. Do I dare trust the local Toyota dealer to fix it, or should I find a local shop. The Shop I used to trust has been sold and the none of the Old Techs are there. Not sure if I can still trust the place anymore. And speaking of parts, I figure that genuine Toyota Axles are the only way to attempt to get Quality parts, but you never know now days. 2
stitchdup Posted February 20 Posted February 20 On 2/20/2025 at 4:23 AM, stavanzer said: I'm driving an '87 Toyota Camry, 109 Thousand miles. It sounds like it might be needing to have the CV joints replaced. Do I dare trust the local Toyota dealer to fix it, or should I find a local shop. The Shop I used to trust has been sold and the none of the Old Techs are there. Not sure if I can still trust the place anymore. And speaking of parts, I figure that genuine Toyota Axles are the only way to attempt to get Quality parts, but you never know now days. Expand you probably wont get parts that old from toyota unless its for a supra, but camry are popular at breakers yards. at nearly 40 years old you'll probably struggle to even find pattern parts new 2
johnyrotten Posted February 20 Posted February 20 (edited) On 2/20/2025 at 4:23 AM, stavanzer said: I'm driving an '87 Toyota Camry, 109 Thousand miles. It sounds like it might be needing to have the CV joints replaced. Do I dare trust the local Toyota dealer to fix it, or should I find a local shop. The Shop I used to trust has been sold and the none of the Old Techs are there. Not sure if I can still trust the place anymore. And speaking of parts, I figure that genuine Toyota Axles are the only way to attempt to get Quality parts, but you never know now days. Expand Oem would be a good choice, if they're available,varying quality with some aftermarket/ reman. Parts. Both c.v. Axles in my wife's jetta were replaced, I pulled them from a super low mileage car at a pull-your-part. Oem VW anything tends to be expensive. On another note, 109 thousand miles on an 87, that things a creampuff. Probably the lowest mileage one left.👍 Edited February 20 by johnyrotten Spelling 1
Ace-Garageguy Posted February 20 Author Posted February 20 (edited) On 2/20/2025 at 4:23 AM, stavanzer said: I'm driving an '87 Toyota Camry, 109 Thousand miles. It sounds like it might be needing to have the CV joints replaced... Expand Finding a shop isn't easy these days. CV joint replacement is a relatively simple straightforward job, but a ham-handed monkey can cause a lot of problems...besides the dealers' SOP of hiring $15/hr "technicians" and charging well over $100/hr in most places. Finding a competent independent shop will take some research, reading reviews, talking to other Asian car owners, etc. There ARE online sources for OEM old-stock Toyota parts (usually bought from dealerships when they dumped "obsolete" stock), and as far as aftermarket parts go, in general, if you can find parts made in Japan they're usually much better than the Chinese "equivalents". Buying aftermarket online can be a roll of the dice though, 'cause there's no shortage of re-boxed bottom-of-the-barrel garbage, and sellers often lie about part country-of-origin. Good luck. EDIT: Though it may sound pretty bleak, that little car is definitely worth jumping through a few hoops to keep it running, and it will run a long, long time with good people working on it. Edited February 20 by Ace-Garageguy
dmthamade Posted February 20 Posted February 20 On 2/20/2025 at 4:23 AM, stavanzer said: I'm driving an '87 Toyota Camry, 109 Thousand miles. It sounds like it might be needing to have the CV joints replaced. Do I dare trust the local Toyota dealer to fix it, or should I find a local shop. The Shop I used to trust has been sold and the none of the Old Techs are there. Not sure if I can still trust the place anymore. And speaking of parts, I figure that genuine Toyota Axles are the only way to attempt to get Quality parts, but you never know now days. Expand Are the joints noisey or are the boots leaking? If quiet, you can just reboot the joints. 109000 miles on a Camry is not a big deal if it's not from the rust belt, seen them and other toyotas go 250/300000kms regularly. Close to 200000 miles. Aftermarket axles can be hit or miss, we source from non franchise parts house, brand new axles, can't remember country of origin. We also source from Worldpac, they sometimes list OE parts. We've got stuff from Rockauto, Summit, name brand stuff. Finding a shop... word of mouth seems to be the best way to find a shop, though with old age attrition of techs, lack of new talent... Don 1
rattle can man Posted February 21 Posted February 21 Finding quality parts takes research. For my '93 car and truck, I won't buy brake parts from anyone but one store. All of the less expensive stores and the parts fail in a year. Knowing what interchanges can help. I find searching for various Mazda parts much more successful than searching for Ford Festiva parts. Finding a shop to work on them weeds out a lot of shops. They simply don't know how to handle anything without a computer scan (can you say OBD 1 and counting the flashes?). But finding the small shops when something is beyond my skills is getting harder. Thankfully my vehicles are reliable and easy to repair once I find parts. 1
Rodent Posted February 21 Posted February 21 On 2/20/2025 at 3:44 PM, dmthamade said: Are the joints noisey or are the boots leaking? If quiet, you can just reboot the joints. 109000 miles on a Camry is not a big deal if it's not from the rust belt, seen them and other toyotas go 250/300000kms regularly. Close to 200000 miles. Aftermarket axles can be hit or miss, we source from non franchise parts house, brand new axles, can't remember country of origin. We also source from Worldpac, they sometimes list OE parts. We've got stuff from Rockauto, Summit, name brand stuff. Finding a shop... word of mouth seems to be the best way to find a shop, though with old age attrition of techs, lack of new talent... Don Expand Honestly? If the boots aren't ripped and spewing grease a few pops when turning won't hurt anything and won't leave you stranded. A decent set of axles installed will cost you around $1k +/- and that car isn't worth it IMHO. I bought a cheap Honduh a bunch of years ago from a friend that bought it from a friend. I had known the car from new. The CV joints made noise, but a pair of decent axles at the time was $600 if I supplied the labor. Didn't do it. Before Bill wades in, I am absolutely NOT advocating driving a car until it quits. I take great care of my cars. My first new car was a 4-eye 5.0 Mustang that I sold with 187k. The heads or pan had never been off, it smogged, and all the electronics worked. I just choose to pick my battles, and axles that aren't spewing grease wouldn't be something I would worry about unless the CVs started sounding like they were going to grenade. 2
Ace-Garageguy Posted February 21 Author Posted February 21 On 2/21/2025 at 1:48 AM, Rodent said: Before Bill wades in, I am absolutely NOT advocating driving a car until it quits...I just choose to pick my battles, and axles that aren't spewing grease wouldn't be something I would worry about unless the CVs started sounding like they were going to grenade. Expand Agreed 100%. There are minor things wrong with my daily drivers that are nothing but inconvenient or a little irksome, but not safety-related or anything that will make them fail. I'll fix the mechanical issues on the Blazer (the O2 sensor heater quits intermittently and the water pump weeps) and I'll fix them when they get worse.
stavanzer Posted February 21 Posted February 21 My Little Camry has been well cared for. I am the Third Owner. My Grandmother bought it new in 1987. She gave it to my mom in 2015. My mom gave it to me last year. It is indeed a creampuff! The CV joints are just starting to make that loose bearing rattle, but only on tight turns. So, I will probably take Ace's advice and not worry about them just yet. 30 years ago, I replaced Honda, Toyota, Nissan and Mazda Axles all the time. But, I no longer have access to either a shop or a hoist, and I'm not going to try doing the job on my back in a driveway. I may to try to price some axles though. I may not be able to get them once the car is 40 years old. Thanks to all who gave useful advice. I've read and noted all of it. 2
rattle can man Posted February 21 Posted February 21 When looking for parts, check for interchange. Check for an owners forum online to find good parts sources and tips on interchange. Manufacturer's tend to use parts they already make across multiple models. You might have to order the parts for two different models to get the lengths you need, but as long as they fit, it doesn't matter. I shop for Mazda 323 parts for my Festiva. The majority of the time the parts fit. but there are also parts from other Late '80s and newer Fords, Mazda's, and Mercury's that fit too.once upon a time I had an Aerostar that used the same front suspension parts as a Pinto/ Mustang II 1
johnyrotten Posted February 21 Posted February 21 On 2/21/2025 at 5:23 AM, rattle can man said: When looking for parts, check for interchange. Check for an owners forum online to find good parts sources and tips on interchange. Manufacturer's tend to use parts they already make across multiple models. You might have to order the parts for two different models to get the lengths you need, but as long as they fit, it doesn't matter. I shop for Mazda 323 parts for my Festiva. The majority of the time the parts fit. but there are also parts from other Late '80s and newer Fords, Mazda's, and Mercury's that fit too.once upon a time I had an Aerostar that used the same front suspension parts as a Pinto/ Mustang II Expand Great advice here, especially with an older vehicle. With my wife's jetta, a 2008, I found out that the generation after is just a cosmetic rebody, so 90% of drivetrain and suspension parts interchange. 1
oldcarfan Posted February 23 Posted February 23 (edited) We bought a 65k mile Jeep Patriot or Compass, I forget which a few years ago for our son to drive to school. It looked spotless. 91 days to the day, the CVT transmission went out. The dealer said, 'Oh well.' Took it to a repair shop and they said the CVT was listed as non-rebuildable. Ended up selling it for a big loss. Also, a my FIL had a Ram diesel and the transmission went out. I don't remember all the details, but the local mechanic tracked the problem to a bad sensor of some kind. It looked simple enough to fix. Then word came from Chrysler parts. You couldn't just buy the sensor, it was part of a larger component. Turned out the price went from a few hundred dollars to several thousand. Edited February 24 by oldcarfan 1
johnyrotten Posted February 23 Posted February 23 On 2/23/2025 at 2:57 AM, oldcarfan said: We bought a 65k mile Jeep Patriot or Compass, I forget which a few years ago for our son to drive to school. It looked spotless. 91 days to the day, the CVT transmission went out. The dealer said, 'Oh well.' Took it to a repair shop and they said the CVT was listed as non-rebuildable. Ended up selling it for a big loss. Also, a my FIL had a Ram diesel and the transmission went out. I don't re,e,ner all the details, but if I remember, the local mechanic tracked the problem to a bad sensor of some kind. It looked simple enough to fix. Then word came from Chrysler parts. You couildn't just buy the sensor, it was part of a larger component. Turned out the price went from a few hundred dollars to several thousand. Expand That dealer sounds like you know what, 90 days is the minimum required warranty, no integrity or decency on his end.
dmthamade Posted February 25 Posted February 25 On 2/23/2025 at 2:57 AM, oldcarfan said: We bought a 65k mile Jeep Patriot or Compass, I forget which a few years ago for our son to drive to school. It looked spotless. 91 days to the day, the CVT transmission went out. The dealer said, 'Oh well.' Took it to a repair shop and they said the CVT was listed as non-rebuildable. Ended up selling it for a big loss. Also, a my FIL had a Ram diesel and the transmission went out. I don't remember all the details, but the local mechanic tracked the problem to a bad sensor of some kind. It looked simple enough to fix. Then word came from Chrysler parts. You couldn't just buy the sensor, it was part of a larger component. Turned out the price went from a few hundred dollars to several thousand. Expand CVT transmissions....OK in theory.....replaced a lot of the Nissan units, with used...when they grenaded, we installed new from dealer. Now. new is all we install on Nissan. We have done a few CVTs in house, can't remember make. If hard parts in good condition, belt, clutches,seal kits/etc available, can be rebuilt. Ram diesel valve body, yeah. See this more and more, sometimes they outright won't sell the part to you. Don
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