Fall of the Automobile, Rise of the Appliance

[MrObsessive]

Besides this forum, I cruise some of the other 1:1 forums once in a while. One of my favorites is GM Inside News. This is where you can get the complete skinny on what's up and coming from GM (and others), critiques of such and some very good inside info of what's going on behind the scenes.

I came across this very interesting thread about GM's dilemma of what to do about a new Cadillac flagship. The current business case calls for the vehicle to be FWD............this got the original poster to thinking-----if the car is to be front wheel drive, must it have to LOOK like a typical front wheel drive car?

He pointed out one of my biggest gripes of FWD since it was foisted on us in earnest since the early '80's. The terrible long front overhang and the goofy "too close to the front of the door" placement of the front wheels which on a lot of cars (especially larger ones) simply looks horrendous!

One only need to look at GM's offering starting in 1966 with the original Oldsmobile Toronado...........beautiful proportions (as only Bill Mitchell would do) and proper dash to front wheel distance to give the car a graceful yet muscular appearance.

My original title of this thread was "Fall of the Automobile, Rise of the Appliance. I titled it so because, one of GM's biggest problems (and Ford and Chrysler) is they for too long have been making cars that no one really wants. They make/have made too many cars that have about as much personality as my refrigerator.

The bad economy notwithstanding, one need only look at the Camaro, and the new '10 Mustang to see that a good looking car will sell itself. True these are niche vehicles and appeal to a minority of buyers considering---------but why can't someone make a sexy four door vehicle for the masses that wouldn't be considered "just another appliance"?

Anyway, I'd like to hear your thoughts......if you want to check out the article on GMI just click here to see the thread in context.

It's a long one, so grab a cup of coffee or a couple of sandwiches if you want to read through all those pages!

Okay, enough of my rant.........I've got a certain Cougar to finish up before next weekend! An appliance it certainly is not!

[elan]

That's why BMW does so well. They make a family-sized 4 door sedan that's actually fun to drive. There aren't too many American cars that you can load up with Granny and the kids and enjoy the driving experience.

[Harry P.]

The reason that many "family sedans" look fairly sedate is simple: A 4-door sedan is the type of car that most people DO think of as an "appliance." And a 4-door sedan is the type of car that most buyers want/need.

Let's face it, people who need a car to haul around the wife, kids and mother-in-law generally aren't looking to make a "statement"... they just want a reliable and affordable car that will get them from Point A to Point B with minimun drama. The automakers know that... so why spend money unnecessarily coming up with sleek, sporty, flashy 4-door sedans? There's really not much reason to do so.

Flashy, sexy, stylish cars? That's what coupes and sportscars are for.

[MrObsessive]

True Harry, but when you're talking about "The Standard of the World" such as Cadillac used to tout------FWD vs. RWD shouldn't be an issue. Especially with something that supposed to be "Flagship", to me it should be a no brainer.

As was mentioned, BMW and Mercedes never went whole hog into FWD.............last time I saw, it snows quite a bit in Germany!

..........And I know it has a lot to do with cost, but that's my whole point-----need a car LOOK cheap even though it can be made cheaply within reason.

Maybe I'm a bit nostalgic for days of yore because of seeing too many dang SUV's and Minivans on the road in the past decade.......

[Harry P.]

I think Cadillac's days as the "Standard of the World" are looooong gone (assuming they ever even were the "Standard of the World," that is).

As far as FWD vs RWD shouldn't be an issue... I don't think I understand your point. Are you saying that FWD is somehow inferior to RWD? Or that Cadillacs should, for some reason, be RWD only?

[MrObsessive]

Are you saying that FWD is somehow inferior to RWD? Or that Cadillacs should, for some reason, be RWD only?

Nope not at all! I'm focusing on basically the styling of FWD cars.

Now I know styling is subjective........but how did we go to those beautifully proportioned Eldorados and Toronados of the '60/'70's to the anonymous lifeless styling that clogs the roads today?

I was turned off (for the most part) by FWD many years ago when the first time I sat in one, the wheelwell was protruding inside the footwell!

Terrible!

Now my own car is a Saturn Ion Coupe.............a small car so it NEEDS front wheel drive. But larger cars look much better proportion wise with a RWD setup because the front wheels are closer to the front of the car, NOT pushed practically against the front of the door.

Here's an example of a car that needs a serious wheelbase alignment...............

2008 Dodge Avenger..............I don't mean to step on someone's toes if they own one of these...............but to me this is a great (or terrible) example of why I dislike FWD on a lot of cars.

.........and this is supposed to be a midsized car!

[Guest promodmerc]

The reason that many "family sedans" look fairly sedate is simple: A 4-door sedan is the type of car that most people DO think of as an "appliance." And a 4-door sedan is the type of car that most buyers want/need.

Let's face it, people who need a car to haul around the wife, kids and mother-in-law generally aren't looking to make a "statement"... they just want a reliable and affordable car that will get them from Point A to Point B with minimun drama. The automakers know that... so why spend money unnecessarily coming up with sleek, sporty, flashy 4-door sedans? There's really not much reason to do so.

Flashy, sexy, stylish cars? That's what coupes and sportscars are for.

Word. And that is why other than my '97 Mounatineer is why I only have 2 door cars. No kids so I don't need it four dors. I use the Mountaineer for hauling/camping.

I was an only child. My parents bought a '69 Olds convertible brand new in 1969 and kept it until the late 80's and that was only because of some BEEEEEEEP rear ended my mom it and totaled it.

Shoot my aunt & uncle had four kids and they never had a four door car. Of course that was when a 2 door Olds, Buick etc were bigger than the tiny 4 door cars of today.

[E St. Kruiser50]

Well Bill, the love affair with the automobile in this country is all but dead, THE "APPLIANCE" has become the new standard IMHO.

Since the early 70's, there has been nothing made in this country to be in love with, except Corvettes and maybe the later MUSTANGS - NOT INCLUDING THE MUSTANG II - JUNK , AND SOME GREAT TRUCKS - BUT CARS - THATS ANOTHER STORY .

The past has proven that U.S. automakers can make exciting cars, but for whatever reason we could come up with and discuss all day long here - THEY QUIT .

U.S car makers don't get it, and maybe they never will.

There has been a culture shift, and foreign car makers get it. They aren't SNOW BLIND".

They're looking from the outside in, and see the changes that are occuring here in the U.S., and around the world.

THEY GET IT , AND ARE SELLING COOL LOOKING "APPLIANCES" .

What we all experienced at the time of the 50's and 60's, and the love affair with the automobile was a one-time phenomenon, that produced some of the most spectacular production cars in history - BUT THOSE DAYS ARE GONE and especially GM and CRYSLER just don't get it, and maybe some of us don't get it either.

THE NATIONAL LOVE AFFAIR WITH THE AUTOMOBILE IS OVER - WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT.

TRUTH IS STILL TRUTH - OUR SOCIETY HAS CHANGED, AND SO HAS OUR VALUES.

There are still "Pockets" of people like us, but the masses want an "ECONO-BOX" FAMILY APPLIANCE, WITH GOOD MILEAGE AND SAFETY, good styling, AND A DESCENT PRICE.

HENCE ALL THE CUTE LITTLE HONDAS, TOYOTA'S, NISSANS SUBARU'S AND SCIONS.

HUH- FUNNY - ALL FOREIGN AND DOING WELL.

AFTER THE KIDS GROW UP, THEY BUY A BMW, LEXUS, MERCEDES, ETC. - GO FIGURE .

Edited September 4, 2009 by Treehugger Dave

[sfhess]

IMHO there is nothing boring or "appliance-y" about my 2007 Fusion.......

[Modelmartin]

I tend to be somewhat iconoclastic in my views on most things and this topic is no exception. The more things change the more they stay the same is what I think. There were boring "appliance" cars at any point in automotive history. There were and are some very cool cars at any point, also.

A few examples are 50s pre-Exner Mopars. They are stodgy and boring - devoid of personality.

If they didn't have drag racing nostalgia going for them, 30s Willys would be considered boring econo-boxes which is what they were.

Model Ts are really cool but they are appliances. So are Beetles but they had more character.

Like the previous member stated about the Fusion - it isn't "appliancey". He is right. The Fusion/Milan is a very good looking car. The newest Malibu isn't bad either. The previous one was awful and that wagonback thing was truly awful.

I think a lot of the nostalgia is for the long hood/short deck look that some cars have. I think a well designed front driver can look real good without having to imitate a rear driver. It is a different look but it can look real good. I just love the new Mini Clubman. Imagine a front drive wagon that can look that good!!

The love affair with the automonile is definitely not over in my opinion. It has changed dramatically and new generations are taking it over and us old farts are grumbling about it because the new generation doesn't go for "our" cars!

[Harry P.]

The love affair with the automonile is definitely not over in my opinion. It has changed dramatically and new generations are taking it over and us old farts are grumbling about it because the new generation doesn't go for "our" cars!

That's exactly right.

Like our tastes in music, our automotive tastes are generally formed in our childhood/teens... in other words, we like what was on the street when we grew up. That's why so many people today are into 60s muscle cars.... because those were the cars on the street when they were young. And that's why some people today think that today's cars are bland and boring–because they don't look like the cars they grew up liking. But the kids/teens/young adults of today are growing up with today's cars, and 30-40 years from now they will look back with nostalgia and admiration to the cars of today. It's a generational thing. Kids today are just as "car crazy" as the "old guys" of today were back in their day. The love affair with the automobile isn't over... it's just moved on to the current generation.

Andy is exactly right–automotive "appliances" were a staple of the industry from the beginning. Back in the day, you can't get much more basic, unadorned and "unsexy" than a Model T. But they sold in the millions for two very good reasons: they were bullet-proof, and they were affordable. Those selling points worked in the teens and twenties, and they still work today.

[E St. Kruiser50]

50'S AND 60'S CAR HISTORY IN SAN BERNARDINO, CALIF.

When I was a kid IN SoCal, SEPT. 12th was the day everyone got excited about.

That's the day the new cars hit the "SHOW ROOM FLOORS".

At night the seachlights would come on, and everyone in town new where the new cars were, and that they had arrived.

I remember my folks packing us kids up, and going to see the new cars.

Didn't make much sense when I was a kid, but we got free cookies and pop at the dealers, so it was all good.

Seemed like no matter where you went, the whole town was there. Thousands of people out, lookin' at the newest offerings.

When I got to driving age I got "The Bug" like everyone else.

My buddies and I would drive around town all night to the different dealers, who stayed open extra late.

We'd chase the "SEARCH LIGHTS" all night, from dealer to dealer.

There was free dougnuts, cookies, pop, and coffee and a "Rock N Roll" band or loud radio music to add to the festivities.

Every dealer you went to, it was like a carnival, with hundreds of people there.

Ya had to park a long way away, and walk for blocks to get there.

The fanciest models of the new cars were always on the inclosed show room floor.

The biggest deal and most exciting, was to buy one of the first cars ON THE SHOW ROOM FLOOR, on the first night, and in front of all the "GAWKING SPECTATORS", and then to have the sales staff, slide open the glass doors, you get to get in and drive it out onto the lot and drive off down the street in your new shiny chariot, to the cheers of everyone standing there watching and waving

DID I SAY A CARNIVAL ?????.

TALK ABOUT AN EGO TRIP - WELL, THAT'S HOW IT USED TO BE DONE.......IN THE DAY

[beefheart22]

Think about it this way... what the heck can a kid do to a Chevy Cobalt? Just like the old generation, the new generation likes cars that can be tinkered with. That's why rice wagons are so popular. Though I wish some took more discretion when adding/replacing their ground effects. Nothing more ridiculous than seeing a towering wing looming over the blue glow of overpowered headlights on a Civic Si. Or the guy behind the wheel of it.

Then again, we did the same thing to trucks in high school (save the dumb looking wings!)

Edited September 5, 2009 by beefheart22

[62rebel]

EXCEPT the Mustang II? which outsold the original 4 years running? which BTW kept the "Mustang" name on the Ford rolls so they could use a Fairmont chassis to build the NEXT one? i digress...

front wheel drive was foisted on the driving public as the "next great thing" by Morris, Fiat, Volkswagen and Honda when they realized it was cheaper to build cars with all the drivetrain at one end... and MOST of these cars never DREAMED of more than 100bhp to begin with. FWD is great in a car capable of controlling torque steer (which took decades for Detroit to master) and downright dangerous in high HP cars (which is why Police Spec Taurus's never took off; the average cop could not handle a FWD car at speed) until the advent of traction control and ABS systems....

as for GM, they've been saddled with too many lines and too much saturation for too long. Cadillac should have two models, neither of which should be a poorly-disguised Suburban, and both CLEARLY Cadillac and owing NOTHING to the rest of the line (not even lug nuts). a modern Eldorado coupe and a DeVille sedan, both RWD or AWD.

i admittedly have a hard time identifying various new cars.... to me they are all devoid of real character, and remind me of either a bar of soap left too long in the tub, or some kind of wheeled Japanese Anime concoction..... all angles and wings and spearpoints and no personality.

now, a '70 Toronado..... or a '72 Riviera... no mistaking one of THOSE.

[Steven Zimmerman]

My take on it....I'm 58 years old,and have 3 vehicles in the driveway. (1) a Toyota Scion. (2) a 73 Dodge Challenger (3) a 79 Malibu wagon. The Scion is the best everyday driver I've ever owned. I can get a full load of stuff to sell at the Toledo NNL,two guys and their week end luggage,steps right along at 80 MPH AND pulls down 40 mpg on the interstate. The Challenger is a toy. Has to use premium,gets about 12 mpg,runs like a raped ape with 'all the right stuff' from the 70's Handles like ######,can't get in or out of it without being a contortionist. My wife still doesn't understand the manual choke. Malibu wagon has a warmed over 327/350,ralley wheels and white letter tires,dual exhausts,painted black. Uses premium also,gets about 20 mpg if I keep my foot of it, Handles surprisingly well,thought it handled well in the snow,till I got my Scion. I love the new Challenger and Camaro,but would have to give up my Modelling hobby to own on; Used Magnum wagons are starting to fall into my price range. I think you'll find most people on this board fall into this catagory(sp?) We all love the hot fast sexy cars,and may have one in the garage...but in reality,we drivean econobox everyday....The parking lot where I work(Channellock inc) is full of trucks,mainly,although I see this changing as the price of gas creeps up again. Lots of SUV's too,out of 450 people working there, maybe 10'sporty' cars,mainly in the (mis)management parking lot.To the average Joe,the car IS an appliance,you use it and throw it away like a box of tissues.....

[Eshaver]

( SIGH ) annother wedge of cheese from GENERIC Motors . You're so right Bill ! Bill Mictchell, Chuck Jordan , Alfred Sloan , Heck even Miser Earl , they're all gone and whats running the company is a pitiful excuse to anyone ! These BOZOS arent automobile people , they're just a bunch of tired ole bean counters ! Ed Shaver

[old-hermit]

Even though I don't like the new cars, I call them rubber stamps, the current generation of hot rodders are doing the same thing we did as kids weather it was in the 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's or 80's. They are taking a ten year old car that can be bought cheap and putting every dollar they can afford to make it go fast or look good or both. Gotta give them credit for doing ANYTHING with what they have to work with.

I know most of us are old farts who would rather have a '32 deuce or '70's muscle car but the young guys are running the R&D departments of American auto makers and they are producing what they think will sell. Computer programs, wind tunnels, fuel economy, government regulations, etc all have a BIG impact on what they can do. I know I'm rambling but the age of backyard hot rods and cool Detroit iron is dead. Hell, ya can't even tune up your '98 Blazer without a computer.

[MrObsessive]

Given the choice of today's more reliable vehicles as opposed to yesteryear's cars of manual chokes, points and condenser ignition, and early rusting, I'd much rather have today's cars.

I just lament the lack of imagination when it comes down to styling......especially the American cars. When you have cars that all have hoods that slope at the same angle, windshields that are at the same angle with pillars a mile wide, roof lines lacking any character or daring, well you've just cooked up a recipe for blandness which got old and stale fast.

Add to that the aforementioned limitations of FWD styling and wheelbase placement-------well that adds to the "sameness" IMO.

I wish the stylists would stop bowing at the altar of the aerodynamic gods and put some distinction and "pop" back into what might be to some "a boring sedan". Yeah I know they're trying to squeeze every MPG out of a car design these days...........but a car doesn't' have to be super aerodynamic to be beautiful. There are other ways to make cars more aero without looking like raindrops.

Someone I heard quoted in the auto industry once said that a good looking car will sell itself.

[Harry P.]

Back in the fifties, styling reigned supreme. Huge fins, gallons of chrome, wretched excess...

But back in those days nobody ever heard of OPEC... nobody ever considered that oil was a limited resource. All that mattered was that your new car had more chrome and higher fins than your neighbor's car.

Cut to the present. We now realize that oil is not an endless resource, and most of the oil that the Earth still has left is buried beneath the ground of nations that don't particularly like us all that much. There's only so much of it left, and Mother Nature ain't makin' any more... not in our lifetimes, at least, and what is left is controlled mainly by America's enemies. And the price of a gallon of gas, which was relatively stable and relatively cheap "back in the day" has now risen to the point where it has a rather large impact on many people's budget.

So what do we do about it? Well, the "American lifestyle" doesn't really embrace the idea of cutting back on our personal freedoms... one of which is the freedom to hop into our car and drive wherever the heck we want to drive. We as a society are, for the most part, unwilling to cut back on our oil (gas) consumption. So the Feds instituted mileage standards for cars to force us to use less "Texas tea."

And one of the main ways car designers/engineers can cut fuel consumption and meet government mandated fuel efficiency standards is to design cars that are aerodynamically efficient. The most aerodynamically efficient shape in nature is the raindrop. There's no getting around the laws of physics. If cars today must be as fuel efficient as possible, let's face it, more and more of them are going to look more or less alike... like a horizontal raindrop. Today's stylists are slaves to the wind tunnel... there's no getting around that. The days of the '59 Cadillac are gone and they're not coming back.

Maybe if alt-fuel vehicles ever gain a foothold, and we're no longer so dependent on the "bad guy's" oil, a new "golden age" of style over function could return. We'll have to wait and see, but that day isn't coming anytime soon.

[Rob Hall]

I grew up in the '80s around '60s-70s cars, still like the cars of that era, still have my oldie (my '87 Mustang GT), but for real world, daily driving, I'd rather have the safety, reliability and creature comforts of modern cars. Time flies, can't believe I've had my Jeep ('00 Grand Cherokee) for over 9 years and 100k miles now. Other than the broken driver's seat, it's been extremely reliable and never stranded me (unlike the '87 Mustang which stranded me too many times).

Probably going to get a new car next year, no FWD appliances for me, though. I'll stick w/ RWD or RWD/AWD.

Edited September 6, 2009 by Rob Hall

[BigGary]

Let me take you back to the earlier part of this decade. When Daimler bought Chrysler they treated it like a red-headed step child that couldn't make enough of those vans and pickups. About '05 the Chrysler 300C and Charger/Magnum came out and sold like crazy, before $4 gas. By '07 Chrysler Division was the only one keeping Daimler from going under. Daimler was skimming off the profits to keep Mercedes going and calling Chrysler unprofitable. Arrogance at Mercedes was incredible.

There's a reason 300C's and Chargers were selling like hotcakes. They were stylish cars, RWD, fairly fast, comfortable, good handling, and plenty of room for you and all your buds. In the fall of '06 I rented a 300C and drove it around Central & Coastal California. Man it was hard to give that car back! Its not in the budget, but I hope one day. At 6'6" and 320 lbs. Big Gary was very comfortable in that ride.

Gary

P.S. For the most part, Ford and GM (new, old or otherwise) make rubber stamp, boring cars. It appears that government interference in the auto industry is going to reduce us down to driving the 21st century version of Yugo & Trabant.

[capsgs]

Guys, All of this discussion has been quite amusing to read and mostly subjective to "car people". I'm a service manager at a Chevy Caddy store. Let's first look at the design of cars and trucks today. Face it "car people" are a niche in todays automotive design. I read on here that the foreign manufaturers are making much better looking cars than the domestics. Now I ask you to take a good look at the automotive scene and that statement. Nearly all of the foreign designs, with the exception of a few, are direct coppies of domestic models and have been for a long time. It is true that the foreign manufacturers got a jump on us when it comes to quality and efficiency. That was because they needed to produce that for their own markets long before our market dictated it. One only needs to look at the early offerings from foreign manufacturers to to see this. Fuel efficientcy became a premium in foreign countries long before it was in the States. (due to the cost of fuel) I'm not going to go into the whole he did she did aspect of this portion of the discussion in an effort to condense this post a bit. Also, in case you hadn't noticed, Toyota, the one time quality king, has dropped to 5th in initial quality. Is it because they started building a lesser quality product? No, it's because veteran car buyers started buying them instead of what I have seen labeled as "The Cool-Aid " generation. Once evaluated by seasoned buyers their quality is only on par with domestics...hmmm!!!

Now let's look at marketing. If there is one thing the foreign manufacturers have done better than the domestics it's been marketing. They have convinced the American public that their cars are better. While this may have been true at one time, it hasn't been legit since the 80's. For some strange reason the media is involved in all of this too. Does anybody know what the most recalled models were for 08? Of the top 10, 7 were foreign cars and trucks. You don't see that statistic in the news though. However let one of the big 3 have a recall and it gets plastered all over the front page. Nuff said on that aspect, as I still don't understand it. The American manufacturers fell victim to something that the foreign manufacturers will see soon also. They flooded the market with slightly used vehicles due to the popularity of leasing. This drove the price of the used car market way down. It caused the public, who's buying habits are largely dictated by payment, to start buying 1-2 year old models with low milage instead of brand new ones that were twice the payment. The big 3 abandoned leasing and took themselves right out of the payment wars. This is the only reason that the foreign manufacturers did so well with the clunker deal, because they still have leasing. You could lease a Camery for $198.00/month with the Government's $4500.

There's whole lot more to this story, but this post is long enough without getting into the political aspect of it all. Hopefully I've given you some info that sparks some thought about all this. Everything I put in this post is fact, and I tried to keep my own personal views out of it. So please don't shoot the messanger!!1

Chris Capucini

[Harry P.]

I'm a service manager at a Chevy Caddy store...

Everything I put in this post is fact, and I tried to keep my own personal views out of it...

Chris Capucini

Uh... are you sure about that? Being a service manager at a Chevy/Cadillac dealer doesn't in any way have any influence on your opinion of foreign cars?

You brought up "Cash for Clunkers," so here's an interesting wrapup to that program. The top 10 best selling cars bought under the program were:

1. Toyota Corolla

2. Honda Civic

3. Toyota Camry

4. Ford Focus

5. Hyundai Elantra

6. Nisan Versa

7. Toyota Prius

8. Honda Accord

9. Honda Fit

10. Ford Escape

Eight of the ten top sellers were Asian cars, Ford had just 2, and GM and Chrysler had none.

No political statement intended here, but the results are not exactly a pat on the back for the US car industry, are they?

[Rob Hall]

Uh... are you sure about that? Being a service manager at a Chevy/Cadillac dealer doesn't in any way have any influence on your opinion of foreign cars?

You brought up "Cash for Clunkers," so here's an interesting wrapup to that program. The top 10 best selling cars bought under the program were:

1. Toyota Corolla

2. Honda Civic

3. Toyota Camry

4. Ford Focus

5. Hyundai Elantra

6. Nisan Versa

7. Toyota Prius

8. Honda Accord

9. Honda Fit

10. Ford Escape

A list of vanilla FWD generics...reliable, dull point A to point B cars....which the mainstream loves.

[roadhawg]

A list of vanilla FWD generics...reliable, dull point A to point B cars....which the mainstream loves.

I'm not so sure the mainstream "loves" them.....they've just been brainwashed into believing thats it wrong...politically and environmentally....to drive anything powerful or flashy. Why, if you don't drive a boring econobox that can't even get out of its own way, you are living in selfish excess. Just think of all those starving kids.......wherever.

I wonder if they'll ever be any rock and roll songs about a Ford Fusion?

Oh, and Harry.......the way I understand it, most of the oil that the Earth still has left is buried beneath the ground in ALASKA.

Oh...btw....I didn't take cash for my clunker......it's paid for. I'll just keep it.