How shiny should shiny be?

[mikemodeler]

A very entertaining series of postings,not to mention informative as well. I think the biggest thing we can take away from this has been pointed out by a few of the "sane" voices here:

1. ALL painting and clearing can be considered hazardous and proper precautions should be taken to ensure we do not harm ourselves or others around us when painting.

2. We all have different opinions on what processes or types of product one should use to achieve whatever degree of "shinyness" we are after.

3. Not all cars deserve the same clear coating as they differ in real life too.

4. Find what works for you and master it (a nod to Donn Yost!).

5. If you are a trophy hunter, determine what degree you have to master to achieve your goal of a full shelf of trophies. If you build for your own enjoyment (like me), get them to your satisifaction and be done with it.

6. Work on improving your skills as that is a natural part of "growing".

Something I learned about on forums was the use of Future floor wax as an alternative to spraying a clear coat. I was skeptical at first until I saw a few examples in person. I then researched it a little more and have finally attempted it on a model this week. I am pleased to say that I may have found a new way to clear coat models without much difficulty and it dries MUCH faster than any clear I have ever sprayed before. Add in the fact that I can do it inside the house without offensive odors or special equipment and it becomes an even bigger bonus (if any of you tell my wife I am using Future and I have to start doing the floors at home, I WILL hunt you down! ).

Hope everyone has a safe and happy new years!

[LoneWolf15]

Mike ,

It's gonna cost you $ 25.00 a week , cash only please ! Otherwise , you are going to have very sore hands and knees doing all of the significant other's floors . Hey ! Gotta make money somehow , Right ?

By the way ..... Is extortion grounds for getting kicked off the Forum ?

Happy New Year to all , shine or no shine !

The Old Man

[SuperStockAndy]

Just like someone else said:

If I really thought about this, I'd just quit building.

I mainly build old school American Muscle cars. It's my style. You know how the old cars weren't that shiny? That's how I make mine. Unless I'm building a replica of a shiny car, I don't use that much clear. In my opinion, I don't think when they created model kits that we'd be having this "feud" right now!!! I'm not building any dang "show quality" models, so yeah, I'm not super concerned about the shinyness of it!

[joemac]

no i wasnt in a hurry and i made 3 or 4 mistakes, when im writeing on a professional bassis i punctuate correctly and spell more carefully. but then agian im sure its really easy for you to hit pell check, then correct me on my grammer

Fourteen errors, just so you know.

I'm finished, now.

Edited December 29, 2010 by joemac

[Krazy Rick]

no i wasnt in a hurry and i made 3 or 4 mistakes, when im writeing on a professional bassis i punctuate correctly and spell more carefully. but then agian im sure its really easy for you to hit spell check, then correct me on my grammer

Hey Curtis, I must admit that I did poke fun of your grammatical errors; but honestly...I sure would not fault you for it.....Everyone has their strengths & weaknesses; for example, a friend...... ( who happens to be a Multi-Multi Millionaire ) ....has a grade 5 education & cannot read or write as you & I can...BUT....he is a genius with numbers; and was extremely high up & successful in the Stock market. That being said, I think if you did have access to Spell-Check; it would help you to correct any spelling errors in the future; by allowing you to see the proper spelling...once you hit the button to correct it.........here's the link to the Google Toolbar, it's very useful & does have a spell check, I come to these forums myself to both learn & help if I can....and meet some new people....I hope this can be of some help.....if/when you download the toolbar; The Button Marked "CHECK" ....is the spell check - Rick http://www.google.com/toolbar/ie/index.html

Edited December 29, 2010 by Krazy Rick

[cotto]

Hey Curtis, I must admit that I did poke fun of your grammatical errors; but honestly...I sure would not fault you for it.....Everyone has their strengths & weaknesses; for example, a friend...... ( who happens to be a Multi-Multi Millionaire ) ....has a grade 5 education & cannot read or write as you & I can...BUT....he is a genius with numbers; and was extremely high up & successful in the Stock market. That being said, I think if you did have access to Spell-Check; it would help you to correct any spelling errors in the future; by allowing you to see the proper spelling...once you hit the button to correct it.........here's the link to the Google Toolbar, it's very useful & does have a spell check, I come to these forums myself to both learn & help if I can....and meet some new people....I hope this can be of some help.....if/when you download the toolbar; The Button Marked "CHECK" ....is the spell check - Rick http://www.google.com/toolbar/ie/index.html

Or just take some time out and use a dictionary

[cruz]

Oh man, what a great thread! Who said that the Internet is messing up our hobby? This is what it's all about, not crazy about the little insults here and there but I have learned not only how to try something new but also how to spell!!!

I have always been very picky about the details on my models, you know, panel lines and making sure not to cover any details with too much paint. At the same time, I have been curious to learn how to use Urethanes, specially after seeing how many great results my friend Mike Forrester (Bluzboy66) has had on his recent models. Is it something I will try in the future? Of course? Am I against it? Of course not, I have seen great results and also terrible ones but it's not up to me to judge that.

One thing I have learned here is how seriously dangerous this stuff can be and hopefully, with the proper precautions, I will succeed in the use of this medium. Will I prefer it over my usual method of painting? Well, I guess we will have to wait on that but I promise to let you guys know. I just wanted to let you guys know that this is definitely a great thread, there is so much to learn from a everyone here and for that I am greatful!!!

[Curtis v.]

Joe, is that all you know how to do is correct people? Rick, i can use spell check on some thing sites but this one wants me to download something, i can spell just not type haha. Cotto, thats exactlywhat im gonna do is get a dictionary to right on a friken forum. Are you catching my carcasm here? lol jk, but yeah seriously im probly not gonna do that now im done with this conversation!

Edited December 29, 2010 by Curtis v.

[cotto]

Too much talk, how about posting more shiny paintjobs, be it Lacquer, enamel or Urethane?

[Chas SCR]

Curtis, I'm too not the best speller as my job never wanted me to be or even said I had to be a great speller! Just use numbers and program C-N-C machines and read blue prints and make sure machines ran ok.. Nothing more nothing less but I have to agree about the spell check on here about down loading stuff. Not to fon of that type of thing for this board to have the way I look at it, But at the same time easy thing to do is open up IE (Internet Explore) in a different window, I mean by down sizing this page to your desk top and then left clicking on IE and bring up either Fire Fox or Yahoo web site and just type in the word you are trying to spell. This helps me out as close as I can get to doing it also.

Cruz, That was my point as I see it i'm not going to sit here and tell people what not to use or to use when doing some thing. It's not my job nor is it any one els job to tell people that. I have talk to Mr Yost in person at the NNL East last year. He is a great person to talk to and compare idea's on painting and what to use if you are trying to do sertin things. We also got on the subject of the Urethane and not once did he down me for it or even tell me to NOT use it! He told me what to look for and how to use it to achive the looks I want and how to not make it look so think.. One thing I did and have talk to a specialest on the subject that use the stuff a lot more days then I do as it his job to do it every day, He told me what brand and how to use it and make it where you can shoot urethane out of the air gun at 12psi with out thinning it.

Did I ever say its not toxic NO I never once side it was not this, Nor did I say you should not use the right precaution's when using this.

[mikemodeler]

Donn,

I believe I have your address off the DVD I bought at the show in North Carolina a few months ago so look for an envelope with the money in it towards the end of next week.

For those of you interested in helping me pay Donn, I offer you a bootleg copy of his DVD "The art of airbrushing quality model cars" for the low price of $10, a savings of 50% over buying it directly from Donn!

In all seriousness, Donn does offer some helpful advice in his DVD and I highly suggest picking up a copy. I have been painting model cars for nearly 40 years and his DVD was quite informative.

[wgflatliner]

there's a free spell checker available.

it's called firefox!

[Pete J.]

I kind of hate to get into this fur ball and will restrict my comment to the subject and not the fight. One of the issues I have, and it has been around scale modeling for a long long time is "Scale effect". I know because when Drew lived on the left coast, we had more than one discussion about it. I hardly noticed it being discussed here at all. Scale effect for those who don't know is what happens when you try to replicate a "look" on a significantly reduced item. As you shrink things down, two things happen. The first is that flaws diminish in size to the point that they can disappear, particularly in the smaller scales such as 1:24 or 1:25 and smaller. If you lifted a paint job off a real car and applied it to a paint job on a model, orange peel, bubbles and all, it would look absurd. So we have to scale our paint jobs. This scale effect is why metal flake finishes never look "right" on a model. If you scaled them down, the flake would disappear. This also happens to shine. In other words the further you get away from a 1:1 car you get the shinier and more error free it looks. Now that is not to say that a car with a flat or semigloss finish winds up looking glossy. The same thing happens to the nicks, dings, and other flaws.

The second thing that happens is the the colors become more intense relative to the subject. Years ago, I built a a '69 GTO Judge and got a lot of comments about the "right color" and how far off my example looked. The reality was I used DuPont Lucite Lacquer, mixed to factory specs for "carousel red". I resprayed it with a tiny bit of titanium white added and got a ton questions about where I got the right paint from. Incidentally that is a trick I picked up from out aircraft brothers. They have been doing it with camouflaged paint jobs for years.

Clear coat - Oh my, this subject can go on for days but many of you have hit the nail on the head with "too thick". This is double sided issue. Clear coats have been around for ever. I remember my Dad's '61 Olds 98 had a metallic paint job and it was a two part paint job. My '74 Porsche also had a metallic with clear coat paint job. I know because the car came with a couple of pints of paint from the factory. Personally I like to use clears for a reason not mentioned yet. I use it to eliminate the "step" between the masking of two different colors of paint or the decals and the paint. I keep it very thin and always sand and polish it. The main problem that I see with "too thick" paint jobs occurs in areas that have a sharp edge, like a panel line or sharp crease. The paint tends to round these over and you loose the definition of that sharp edge. Sanding and polish can restore that, and is in my opinion essential. I won't get into it with people about clear over decals except to say that if you have a semi-gloss or flat panel on a real car, to get it right on the model you need to make it the same. If you clear over it, you really need to lay down some flat or semi-gloss clear in that area to get it right.

On the other subject of chemical toxicity, please be careful! Whether it is paint, glue or paint strippers. Rule #1 : If you spray it, don't inhale it. Anything that gets into your lungs is not good for you. You kind of need your lungs in good shape and prolonged exposure will put you on an O2 bottle, if it doesn't kill you. I survived Mt. St. Helens and that was 100% natural stuff. Really bad. Get a respirator. Rule#2 If it evaporates or dissolves stuff(other than plain H2O), don't get it on you or in your lungs. It just isn't going to help. Kidneys and liver have to get it out of your body and if you damage them and you are in for a great deal of pain. Also, stuff that evaporates quickly will probably kill off some brain cells. "This is your brain. This is your brain on......" Now I am not suggesting that you abandon the hobby, just be careful so you can enjoy it for a long, long time.

So, be sensible and enjoy the hobby.

P.S. One final story. When I first got an airbrush I was painting in my garage. It was fall and raining and I figured I would just spray one piece and didn't need much ventilation. I sprayed it and looked up to see a fog filling the garage. It scared the ###### out of me. There was a gas water heater in the garage and I was very luck it didn't light. I got the door open and aired the place out. I have never forgotten the terror that went through me that day. I was 2 seconds from a serious explosion. Spraying needs ventilation, no matter how little you are going to do.

[Krazy Rick]

Or just take some time out and use a dictionary

Even Better

Edited December 30, 2010 by Krazy Rick

[Pete J.]

Harry - I know I have suggested it before, but perhaps you could create a new category, with a name like "Shooting Gallery" or "Dart Board", where those who would like an honest critique of their work could get it instead of a disingenuous pat on the back. Rules of the category would be, post a comment, make sure it includes a solution. Don't just be baggin' on the model. If you post a photo, make sure you what to hear the critique. No complaints about, the comments. If you can't take it. Don't put it up here.

[Harry P.]

Harry - I know I have suggested it before, but perhaps you could create a new category, with a name like "Shooting Gallery" or "Dart Board", where those who would like an honest critique of their work could get it instead of a disingenuous pat on the back. Rules of the category would be, post a comment, make sure it includes a solution. Don't just be baggin' on the model. If you post a photo, make sure you what to hear the critique. No complaints about, the comments. If you can't take it. Don't put it up here.

We already have that... it's called "Under Glass," and all the things you mentioned apply.

[David Thibodeau]

Those of you that know me should know I am an avid urethane painter. I was introduced to it by a friend in North Carolina that owned a body shop. He turned me onto using it about 10 years ago and I have never looked back. He also taught me how to protect myself from the toxic side effects of the "Carcinogens" in the hardeners. For the small amount of clear I spray since I do 1/24 scale on a regular basis I use a 3M NIOSHA approved mask I picked up for about 30 bucks at Home Depot. I change out the organic cartridges whenever I smell a hint of the fumes from the Urethane clear. I also wear pants and long sleeve shirts when I spray it. In addition I wear safety goggles to keep it from my eyes. Besided your mouth,nose,and skin, the eyes are extremely sensitive to absorbing the airborne pollutants from 2 part urethane clears. If these precautions are taken at a high level when you use 2 part urethane clear you should not have any side effects from them. I know I have not since I learned to protect myself. I also spray outside and leave the cars to dry in a closet outside my porch. I live in Florida so this system works well. It gets a little dicey in the summer but I manage.

Now, onto the other subject of this in depth thread about urethane not providing a scale finish or too thick of a finish like its dipped in syrup. This is all dependent on the user and the preparation along with the type of 2 part urethane clear used. I have used House of Kolor Show clear, Dupont Chromaclear, and lately OMNI/SHOPLINE urethanes and have had great success..... My panel lines are not buried ( and that can be eliminated by scribing them prior to primer, color and clear). Have I had thick paint jobs over the last 10 years?? Sure I have!!!! But they all look as good as the day I finished the model. Until I learned how to apply the clear and thin it properly. Like many have said to each his own on how a builder chooses to paint or what type of paint they use on a model. No one should be stating that urethanes are only for 1:1 cars because it is simply not true. Now on to the proof... below is a model I just completed that was painted with Scale Finishes Ferrari Rosso Corsa followed by 2 coats of Dupont Chroma clear. I used Plastikote White Primer as a foundation for the color and clear coats. After it cured for about a week it was polished with 2000 grit sand paper, compounded with 3M perfect it III and followed with Scratch X polish. This is a 1970 Ferrari 512S that ran at Daytona 24 hour race. The kit was a bear to get together.... parts fit was terrible... especially the rear bonnet.

[imghttp://images107.fotki.com/v67/photos/1/335511/8672853/P1010070-vi.jpg

Edited December 30, 2010 by David Thibodeau

[Harry P.]

You make a good point about how that "dipped in syrup" look is due more to the builder than the paint itself. Looking at your photos it's obvious that urethane clear can look "in scale" on a model–when the person applying it knows how to do it right.

[David Thibodeau]

You make a good point about how that "dipped in syrup" look is due more to the builder than the paint itself. Looking at your photos it's obvious that urethane clear can look "in scale" on a model–when the person applying it knows how to do it right.

Thanks Harry......

DaveT

[Bruno]

I am also a urethane user, I use it because that's what we use at work, I spray urethanes everyday so I'm used to working with the stuff... I spray my models at home, in the garage, I installed a fan and of course I use a respirator. A respirator should always be used when spraying all paints, not just urethanes. And I would never spray any paints inside a house. When I lived in an appartment, I was painting my models with a brush and Humbrol paints, then polished and got surprising results, for brush painted models!

I use a 4:1 urethane clear (used many brands like Nason, Fusion, RedLine, Select, all 4:1) and spray only one coat, with a mini HVLP gravity feed spray gun, and if I'm lucky, there's no dust on it and doesn't need any polishing, otherwise I just sand off the dusts with 2000grit sandpaper and polish with 3M perfect-it compound, then some Turtle Wax.

So here's the results I usually get, this one was not polished at all, not even waxed.

Me, I am satisfied with the results I get using urethane. But do you guys think the clear is too thick on this SuperBee? Feel free to answer, I am open to criticism and sorry if my english is bad, I'm french!

BTW, outstanding model there David, as always!

[LoneWolf15]

Donn,

I believe I have your address off the DVD I bought at the show in North Carolina a few months ago so look for an envelope with the money in it towards the end of next week.

For those of you interested in helping me pay Donn, I offer you a bootleg copy of his DVD "The art of airbrushing quality model cars" for the low price of $10, a savings of 50% over buying it directly from Donn!

In all seriousness, Donn does offer some helpful advice in his DVD and I highly suggest picking up a copy. I have been painting model cars for nearly 40 years and his DVD was quite informative.

Wow !,

You went there that quick ? Hmmm , Maybe the next time we run into your lady , I'll suggest new wooden floors for the house and you won't have to worry about using Future. All you'll need is a Swiffer mop..... And about 10 grand for the new floors !! Lol !

Funny you should mention " bootleg " . In the early fall , I had a guy email me about ten diffrent times asking questions which I answered for him , not a problem ! He ordered both dvds and was quite happy with them . Two days later he gets up on one of the low rider forums and offers to upload them onto the forum for anyone that was interested , stating that they were not to tell me about it !

One of the members here caught wind of this , ripped the kid a new one on the forum and then fired off an email to Kathie and I , informing us of the situation. Needless to say , after Kathie was through with him , he was a very sorry young man ! He forgot that we had his name and address from his order form ! The Blonde is not to be triffled with when it comes to business or dishonesty !

Thank you for the compliments on the dvd , I'm glad that they helped , that is what they are out there for !

Say hello to your lady for Kathie and I

Donn

[wgflatliner]

Wow !,

You went there that quick ? Hmmm , Maybe the next time we run into your lady , I'll suggest new wooden floors for the house and you won't have to worry about using Future. All you'll need is a Swiffer mop..... And about 10 grand for the new floors !! Lol !

Funny you should mention " bootleg " . In the early fall , I had a guy email me about ten diffrent times asking questions which I answered for him , not a problem ! He ordered both dvds and was quite happy with them . Two days later he gets up on one of the low rider forums and offers to upload them onto the forum for anyone that was interested , stating that they were not to tell me about it !

One of the members here caught wind of this , ripped the kid a new one on the forum and then fired off an email to Kathie and I , informing us of the situation. Needless to say , after Kathie was through with him , he was a very sorry young man ! He forgot that we had his name and address from his order form ! The Blonde is not to be triffled with when it comes to business or dishonesty !

Thank you for the compliments on the dvd , I'm glad that they helped , that is what they are out there for !

Say hello to your lady for Kathie and I

Donn

your dvd set has helped me a lot. i just started airbrushing recently because i just recently got an air brush. my first attempt went really well.. until i realized i forgot a critical step in cutting out the rear wheel wells to get the slicks to fit.. so now after sanding and smoothing out the wheel wells, the paint chipped. well anyways, the car is going in the purple pond, and a re-do is in order, and i hope to do it justice! if it's any better than my first attempt, then i'll be happy.

your dvd's are worth every penny, and i hope to one day meet you in person.

[Krazy Rick]

David you have raised many good points here, firstly...that panel scribing is a necessity. Obviously Both Bruno & yourself, are accomplished painters; which I can easily gather from your posts; even before seeing the example pics.... as I can see; that you totally have a complete understanding how to work with this material & are able to achieve a "Scale Finish"; but also a gloss which suits the build. I think it's pretty safe to assume that painters, such as yourselves; would be capable of achieving a desired finish on any model; with any type of paint; be it urethane, lacquer; or water based acrylic....and Why?...because you have practised, taught yourself application techniques & have a thorough understanding of the products used. If these steps & the obvious safety precautions are followed, yes; one can work with urethane, and have good results; but I still have reservations.....I can't help but wonder; how many guys ( like yourself ) - will take all the necessary steps that are required; in order to apply this product responsibly.....Now,that being said..... again....I have to shake my head when I hear anyone mention that they are shooting this stuff "Outside"..... ( by saying "Outside, David....I hope you mean an outside Building ? .....and NOT in the Outside air ? ) seriously....this can't be good for anyone. ....Getting back to the Gloss question; here's a couple of examples.... ( Please excuse the lousy pics !!! .....The Chilly Willy is Automotive Lacquer, as is the Goofy 70's Street Freak Falcon .... The Miss Deal Stude; is Urethane..... Now, the Willy's; is 2 clear coats not polished , I felt that the gloss level was adequate; for the Era & type of car I was trying to replicate.... ( the hood does close by the way, I didn't in this pic ) ..... The Falcon, on the other hand; has 3 coats of clear, and sanded using the LMG system; starting at 6,000 grit & ending with the 12,000 ....but not polished, or waxed yet, again; all the panel lines and detail remain "Crisp" .....the Miss Deal .....was done with three coats of urethane clear & polished using the LMG system; from 3600 to 12,000 & polished & waxed ....although very nice to look at; in my opinion the gloss would be overdone for such a car in this era - So here's the thing.... I prefer the Automotive Lacquer, because I can Obtain any desired level of gloss, easily & without having to mix several products & it is Ultra Thin !! - There really is no "Magic Formula"; with any paint system...it's all about taking the time to understand the product; whether your using House Of Kolor Lacquer; or whatever urethane ....Get the Tech sheets/book & read it !! ....there is a specific application requirement for all this stuff & if you follow the steps; You'll be able to achieve a great paint job consistently. There are several factors involved; The first is Prep ..... The Mix Ratios; Distance; time in between coats & Proper overlapping passes & the speed you move the airbrush;and environment are all integral to a successful paint job !! Read Those Manuals....THAT is the Key !!! ( & Practice, practice & more Practice !!! )

Edited December 30, 2010 by Krazy Rick

[Krazy Rick]

And here's a few examples of clear coats on Bike Tanks, just for the heck of it....The First, 15 Coats of Lacquer, ( each coat sanded )... Polished & waxed ....The other two tanks.... Urethane; 4 Coats; Sanded, Buffed, Polished & Waxed

Edited December 30, 2010 by Krazy Rick

[mikemodeler]

Wow !,

You went there that quick ? Hmmm , Maybe the next time we run into your lady , I'll suggest new wooden floors for the house and you won't have to worry about using Future. All you'll need is a Swiffer mop..... And about 10 grand for the new floors !! Lol !

Funny you should mention " bootleg " . In the early fall , I had a guy email me about ten diffrent times asking questions which I answered for him , not a problem ! He ordered both dvds and was quite happy with them . Two days later he gets up on one of the low rider forums and offers to upload them onto the forum for anyone that was interested , stating that they were not to tell me about it !

One of the members here caught wind of this , ripped the kid a new one on the forum and then fired off an email to Kathie and I , informing us of the situation. Needless to say , after Kathie was through with him , he was a very sorry young man ! He forgot that we had his name and address from his order form ! The Blonde is not to be triffled with when it comes to business or dishonesty !

Thank you for the compliments on the dvd , I'm glad that they helped , that is what they are out there for !

Say hello to your lady for Kathie and I

Donn

Donn, my wife would love to have hardwoods throughout the house but when I explained our "arrangement", she understood why we can't afford the floors if I am sending checks off to PA ! HA HA HA

I was obviously kidding about the bootleg DVDs as I hate when my own work gets copied without any renumeration. Besides, your DVD is worth more than $20, but I understand your passion for sharing your tricks and you would rather work until you are in your 70's than to charge the true worth of your product!

In a related topic to this original post, I understand the pros/cons of clear and which types are hazardous and what not. I hope others will consider the cost involved in using urethane if you are not among those that work with it on a regular basis. The extra equipment and precautions necessary to work with it successfully might cause some to cut corners or take risks. While it is great that some have said that they spray it outside, consider where that overspray is going when doing so. My 17 year old son used my spray paints in the garage to spray something and didn't consider that Mom's new car was 10 feet away when he hacked out a quick spray job on some school project. He knows now that the car has to be removed from the garage because I had him clay bar and hand wax the whole car to get the overspray off!!!!! While I like to kid that "There's no high like a lacquer high", a term told to me by an old painter 30 years ago, the truth is that any amount of paint, regardless of the type, inhaled is dangerous.

As I stated earlier, I recently tried Future floor wax as a clear coat applied with a 1/4" brush and was amazed with the results. I plan to use it exclusively moving forward as it is less toxic and easy to use. The cost is significantly less and the amount needed means a regular sized bottle will last a long time! Like the Life cereal commerical..Try it, you'll like it!