Forum Contest Idea

[jsimmons]

I know we have the community build stuff going on, but I think the aim there is to get people to build something - anything - on a fairly regular basis. It's also remiscient of the wild west where you never know when the rules are going to change.

Given the way things are nowadays regarding model building, not all of us have a local club that we can be part of, and some of us are - well - just too remotely located or busy to attent meetings or participate in contests that we have to drive to. What I think would be a neat idea would be to have a tri-annual or semi-annual Forum contest, where everyone has four (or six) months to build a kit and submit up to five pictures of their entry. Keep in mind that I'm just throwing around ideas.

0) Each entry would be placed in a one of these general categories:

Box stock - you can't use anything that didn't come in the box/kit except paint, glue, and BMF.

Kit bash - must be comprised of parts from multiple kits (at least two). Can include after-market tires/wheels, engines, resin, etc.evergreen/plas-truct. The only exception is that no photo-etch is allowed.

Super detail - the more detailed the better, so anything goes. It doesn't matter if the car is real or fantasy, but the detail has to be there to win.

1) Each contest category would have a theme, so one might be muscle cars, another might be race cars, or euro-cars, hot-rods, trucks, lead-sleds, 4x4, apocalyptic, etc. This will change for each contest so that everyone gets to build their favorite kind of model. Another kind of theme would be a "run-what-ya-brung" thing, where any kind of model is acceptable as long as it fits the restrictions of the entered category.

2) ALL builds will be 1/24 or 1/25. Nothing bigger or smaller would be accepted for entry. This is so that everyone is on the same playing field as far as available components and costs are conerned.

3) All entries must be new builds or at the very most, in-progress (as opposed to being completed) at the time the contest started. This would be an honest-Abe aspect of the contest.

4) To avoid favoritism (friends voting for friends just because they're friends), photos of finished models will be uploaded to a contest upload site, where they will be held until the contest is officialy expired. At that time, all photos will be published at the same time for public voting. Voting will be concluded after a reasonable period of time (x weeks, x days, whatever is deemed appropriate). Again, this is an honest-Abe aspect where people are expected to not talk about their contest entry to ANYONE.

5) Photo submissions will be restricted to a reasonable resolution and file size (800x600 no larger than 100k in size), and the photo contents and quality will be at the sole discretion/ability of the builder. No retouching or resizing will be done, and over-sized photos would be rejected as inappropriate. Photos would be uploaded in a ZIP file with no inidication as to who the builder is.

6) If someone intends on participating in a given contest, he/she may indicate that they are participating, but CANNOT say ANYTHING about what they are building (to avoid the favoritism angle). (See Rule 5). This means anything you're building that's been already discussed or seen (in the form of WIP or under glass) in the forums is not eligible for entry into a contest.

7) Once winners have been determined, pictures of the winning entries will be published without names attached. At that point - and ONLY at that point - the builder can identify himself.

8) The next contest would start immediately after the prior one expires (and before winners for the prior contest are announced).

Maybe we could even convince MCM to do a photo spread on the top finishers in the contests. (Are they watching? )

Remember, this is just something I have bouncing around in my little brain box.

[DRG]

Sounds interesting to me though my skill level is NOT competition level.

[Harry P.]

Ken is right... a "photo entry" contest will always have the quality of the photos as an issue. Let's face it, some people have "pro-level" photo studio setups, while others don't know their shutter from a hole in the ground. In any contest there has to be some sort of "level playing field," and if the quality of the photos entered is all over the map, how can the photos be judged fairly against each other?

[Guest Johnny]

Ken is right... a "photo entry" contest will always have the quality of the photos as an issue. Let's face it, some people have "pro-level" photo studio setups, while others don't know their shutter from a hole in the ground. In any contest there has to be some sort of "level playing field," and if the quality of the photos entered is all over the map, how can the photos be judged fairly against each other?

Hey! That's me!!!

Model of the month would be cool but because of the same reasons the winner would need to be picked by those running the site or a random computer pick of some sort.

[diymirage]

it sounds interesting but by making this anonomous it would mean we cant have any WIP threads about the build and thats a big part of this forum

plus, with no WIP how do you know i build the model in the timeframe given and didnt just enter a picture of a model i had sitting on the shelf ?

[highway]

2) ALL builds will be 1/24 or 1/25. Nothing bigger or smaller would be accepted for entry. This is so that everyone is on the same playing field as far as available components and costs are conerned.

It doesn't sound like a bad idea John, but I have to I disagree with this rule above. Yes, most of us here build in 1/24 or 1/25 scale, but there are fine kits in either larger or smaller scales as well. No contest I have ever been to has a restriction like this, and I think it would be better for this idea if it didn't either. If you wanted to have a "restriction" like this, it would be better to do like some shows do and break the catagories into scale specific catagories, such as "1/20 and larger..." and "1/32 and smaller.." rather than just 1/24 or 1/25 only. Other contests don't even have size catagories, and I've personally had an HO scale truck sitting right next to a 1/24 scale truck and a 1/12 scale car next to 1/8 scale and 1/25 scale cars.

As for the "same playing field", the only "same playing field" I've ever experienced at a contest has been the tables the models were sat on! Some of us have the talent (and money) to make their own parts on lathes and scratchbuild amazing parts from metal and styrene, while there are others who have to build within their abilities and budget and use what they can. In my opinion, cost or components should not be an issue, just as size shouldn't be either. I think it would be more of a success if you rethink those two limitations, because real shows don't have them. Just my two cents.

[Harry P.]

As for the "same playing field", the only "same playing field" I've ever experienced at a contest has been the tables the models were sat on!

But at a contest, at least the judges see the models as they actually are. They're all displayed the same way, under the same light, etc. And the judge can see all sides of a model, not just the view that the entrant wants him to see.

In a photo-only contest, the quality of the photos can greatly affect the outcome, because you can only judge what you can see in the photos. A bad photo can make a bright, vibrant paint job look dull and drab, for instance. Out-of-focus photos can make fine detail and craftsmanship hard to see, or even impossible to see.

Judging models by only having photos to look at instead of the real thing in front of you poses problems.

[highway]

But at a contest, at least the judges see the models as they actually are. They're all displayed the same way, under the same light, etc. And the judge can see all sides of a model, not just the view that the entrant wants him to see.

In a photo-only contest, the quality of the photos can greatly affect the outcome, because you can only judge what you can see in the photos. A bad photo can make a bright, vibrant paint job look dull and drab, for instance. Out-of-focus photos can make fine detail and craftsmanship hard to see, or even impossible to see.

Judging models by only having photos to look at instead of the real thing in front of you poses problems.

You are right in that respect Harry, but I was talking about the scale issue!

[Foxer]

The idea is a good one ... just take the "contest" out of it. Oh, we have more community builds going on here than you can count!

[jsimmons]

@DRG - By competing, you improve your skills. Besides, many times (as we've all seen in your standard contests), the people's choice winners aren't necessarily the "best" models.

@khart - Yeah, I'm aware that some people simply can't take a decent picture, no matter how fancy their camera is. My best advice to them is go outside to take the pictures in a shady spot in the middle of the day. Using natural daylight is the best/cheapest way to get the camera to focus accurately. Since this would be a photo-only contest, the photo would be the only way to present the car. That's the nature of the internet beast.

@highway - I suggested the 1/24-1/25 restriction because it puts the BUILDERS on a level playing field. I'm aware of he quality of the models in other scales, but let's face it, the 1/24-1/25 is where the least expensive kits are. Entering a 1/6 scale model against cars half that size is not equitable (in my eyes), and having people ohh/ahh over a 1/43 scale model simply because it's a 1/43 scale model also wouldn't be fair. To make it easy on everyone, I suggested this scale restriction.

@harry P - I think I addressed the photo thing in my reply to khart. It simply can't be helped. The photo quantity/size are just to keep things sane for display on a web page.

@diymirage - Like I stated in the proposed rules, most of this stuff would be based on the assumption that most people want to play fair. With no prizes at stake, cheating wouldn't get you anything at all (except maybe the scorn of your peers when they found out that you did). Given the nature of what amounts to an internet contests, we simply have to learn to trust people to do the right thing. As to the WIP issue, you would be allowed to post your WIP log AFTER the contest winners were announced. It would still be just as applicable and a joy for everyone to see.

@foxer - The idea is to have a solid unchanging set of rules (unlike the rather fluid nature of the community builds), and to give people what I think is a reasonable time frame for building a quality model. I think making it a "contest" helps to focus the builder on exactly what he/she has to do.

@Donnie Boger - I've never seen the Trak or Drastic Plastic web sites, but wouldn't it be kinda wrong to do the same thing here that you guys are doing over there? I certainly wouldn't want to call it "Model of the Month" - y'all are already using that.

[Harry P.]

I certainly wouldn't want to call it "Model of the Month" - y'all are already using that.

There are many car model-related sites that run a "Model of the Month" feature.

[1320wayne]

Judging models by only having photos to look at instead of the real thing in front of you poses problems.

Why the negativity? What problems? You can't give me one example of a problem that can't be overlooked for something like this. Many other venues do things like this with great success. Mark Gustavson did this for years with the Custom Clinic photo contest in the annual Car Modeler issues. All of these different web sites do their model of the month with virtually no problems.

If you're worried about fairness across the board, for every member of the forum, then yes your point is valid that there might be problems. But the bottom line is this. If you don't take good photos, and want to particpate anyway, then you are putting yourself out there for possibly not getting the response and votes needed to win and that is solely on the shoulders of that participant. And I know that there are a lot of builders that don't care for competitions. That's fine for them. But, in my opinion, competition is healthy and in a lot of ways it helps a builder hone his/her skills to do better with each next build.

Problems will only exist if you allow them to.

That's my two cents on the matter.

[ra7c7er]

@DRG - By competing, you improve your skills. Besides, many times (as we've all seen in your standard contests), the people's choice winners aren't necessarily the "best" models.

Judged winners are often not the best either. Just my two cents.

I think a model of the month type thing would be cool but I think their are to many people on this board to do it fairly. The DPMCC forum gets like 20 entries for model of the month. Here Harry and Gregg would probably see hundreds of entries each month. I don't think Harry and Gregg would have a enough time to go through all the entries. And if it was a peoples choice it just becomes a popularity contest.

Edited May 6, 2011 by ra7c7er

[highway]

@highway - I suggested the 1/24-1/25 restriction because it puts the BUILDERS on a level playing field. I'm aware of he quality of the models in other scales, but let's face it, the 1/24-1/25 is where the least expensive kits are. Entering a 1/6 scale model against cars half that size is not equitable (in my eyes), and having people ohh/ahh over a 1/43 scale model simply because it's a 1/43 scale model also wouldn't be fair. To make it easy on everyone, I suggested this scale restriction.

I'm sorry, but I still just DO NOT understand what scale would have to do with a BUILDERS ability and putting them on, as you like to call it, a "level playing field"! Come on, I can build just as nice or junky 1/8 scale kit as I can a 1/43 scale kit! The scale has NOTHING TO DO WITH ABILITY!!

I don't know if you have been a part of a contest or club or not, but I have until the club disbanded in the early 2000s because of life taking over for most of the members and many could not devote the time they once had to the club or to the very successful show our club put on! Scale was NEVER a factor in ANYTHING at our show, and ALL SCALES sat on the table TOGETHER!! Never once did a scale of a kit come into factor for judging, if it was a nicely done and detailed 1/43 scale kit, it was in the same running as a nicely done and detailed 1/25 scale kit. As I suggested in my earlier post, if scale is such a big issue, break the categories into scales, simple as that! Then everyone is still on your "fair" "level playing field" and people can build what they want!

[Harry P.]

Why the negativity?

I'm just pointing out the facts. Judging model entries by looking at photos and not looking at the actual model is a tricky business, and the fact that the photos would vary greatly in quality makes it inherently unfair. Like I said before, judging models when they're all sitting side by side and you can actually see them is one thing; how do you fairly judge a terrific, sharp, well-lit and well-composed photo of one model vs. a dark, blurry cell-phone shot of another model sitting on a cluttered workbench? Gustavson's contest was a little different... he was judging the designs and the customization ideas and commenting on how successful the design concept was, not necessarily the quality of the workmanship. He was judging concept more than execution.

Also... with all the thin-skinned, easily offended types we seem to have here, the whole idea sounds like a potential can of worms with hurt feelings, bruised egos, "I can't believe that model won" types of posts, and so on. Believe me... I deal with you guys every day... I can see it happening.

That being said, if there's enough interest from you guys and you really want to give it a shot, I wouldn't try and stop you... and I think (but can't speak for him) that Gregg would be ok with it. I don't know. Maybe we need to kick the idea around a bit and get more feedback.

[sjordan2]

Hey, why not? As long as there's good judging feedback.

For example, does anyone watch any of the cooking competition shows on the Food Network, like Chopped and Iron Chef? There's a panel of three to four judges. Each contestant brings their creation to the table, and each judge offers a critique. Stuff like, "It was delicious, but your presentation was weak." "Not up to professional standards," etc. I think the critiques are the most important part, and would include things like "I can't tell very much by the photography," which would result in a lower score but in a better understanding by the modeler of what's good. Etc. Maybe the competition could also be opened up to an online poll, but I can't see our members wanting to keep their mouths shut in their opinions of a build. This could end up being crazy with a multitude of opinions being voiced about a wide number of builds.

[sjordan2]

Exactly. Mark even said from the get-go that stuff like like interiors and engines wouldn't be considered in the judging.

That's why the only way I can see it working is is there are no awards whatsoever and if the winners are chosen by popular vote ... which would be simple enough to do utilizing the forum's poll feature.

Not to keep harping on it, but I really like how the TRaK forum does it. Models can be entered in three different categories, winners are selected by popular vote, and, if you're one of the winners, your award is that your model is featured in a banner at the top of the forum's homepage for an entire month.

That sounds good. Poll voting as in the "Real or Model" topic, possibly on a weekly or monthly basis. Establish a permanent topic where people could submit or nominate a model. scalemotorcars.com has a nice feature where "Modeler of the Month" is awarded. But I still think it would be good to have a designated panel comment on entries and give helpful pointers. That might be really difficult to manage, though.

Edited May 7, 2011 by sjordan2

[59 Impala]

I'd go for a model of the month as well as a diorama of the month and then a model and diorama of the year at the end of the year. It works on other forums I belong to. Just my 2 cents worth. Dan

[jsimmons]

@highway - There's no reason to get all twisted over the scale restriction. I suppose if there are just pictures without any accompanying description of any kind, nobody would know what scale it was unless the builder broke the rules and talked about their entry before the winners were announced. I therefore concede the point.

@everyone - I thought I had put in the rules that it was a popular vote (people's choice) kind of contest, but I don't see it up there. That was the intent, and the reason for the restriction of talking about your entry - to avoid people knowing before hand what model they were going to vote for because of who built it, how much work went into it, or at this point, what scale it was.

@everyone again - I figured a contest would be fun, especially for folks that don't have local clubs or can't get to meetings, shows, or contests. What push-back I've seen so far indicates that tempers would flare, feelings would be hurt, rules would be broken (unintentionally or otherwise) and in general, nothing good would come of this idea. Consider the idea dropped.

[gbdolfans]

John,

I think this is a great idea!!!! I doubt I will enter because og my limited ability both in building and photography.

I do have one question about Box Stock.You said no PE.What if the kit has photoetch parts in it???

[jsimmons]

John,

I think this is a great idea!!!! I doubt I will enter because og my limited ability both in building and photography.

I do have one question about Box Stock.You said no PE.What if the kit has photoetch parts in it???

If the model came with it, you can use it. I have a Accurate Miniatures Grand Sport Corvette that comes with PE in the box, so that would be allowed in Box-stock. You can't add anything that didn't come with/in the box, except paint, filler (with the intent of fixing defects or filling seams in the body), and glue, of course. By the current interpretation of the rules, you can do anything you want to the kit except add outside parts/material. This means that you can chop, channel, lower, raise, narrow a car, but you can't use any outside material on the model, which almost eliminates chopping, channeling, and narrowing, unless you feel like you can use the sprue material - or even the box itself - to your advantage in these areas (the sprue and box can be considered to be part of the kit). The spirit of Box Stock is to build the model as the manufacturer intended it, but in actual practice, I ca see people getting REAL creative.

Your lack of ability as a builder can be effectively camouflaged by your lack of skill with a camera.

Actually, since it would have used a people's choice voting system (as opposed to actual judging), you never know what people will vote for.

Edited May 7, 2011 by jsimmons

[Harry P.]

Your lack of ability as a builder can be effectively camouflaged by your lack of skill with a camera.

You just proved my previous point.

[jsimmons]

You just proved my previous point.

I seriously doubt that someone would enter a contest without trying to put their best effort into the model in question. Given the anonymous nature of submissions, the builder couldn't be asked to try to submit better pictures.

I've seen some pretty poor shots on the forums (so out of focus that you couldn't tell by just looking what car was being presented - pictures I would NEVER post for a contest such as the one I suggested). People submitting entries would just have to be able to honestly evaluate whether their picture(s) would be good enough for other people to be able to vote on. As long as they use decent lighting, the picture will be in focus (or reasonably close to it). I honestly don't see the problem, given that it's a people's choice kind of contest.

BTW, I'm certainly not an experienced photographer (nor even slightly interested in learning more than I already know about the subject), but I seem to be able to get semi-decent shots of everything I take a picture of. It ain't rocket surgery to simply observe that better light results in a better picture. To get better light, shoot outside - not in direct sunlight on real hot days, but outside none the less.

As for the snide comments, bruised egos, etc, this *is* the internet, and a certain amount of that kind of behavior is (sadly) to be expected. I have no solution to suggest. This reason alone is enough to put me off a little. I don't act that way, and it never really occurs to me that anyone else would - until it happens.

[Harry P.]

As for the snide comments, bruised egos, etc, this *is* the internet, and a certain amount of that kind of behavior is (sadly) to be expected. I have no solution to suggest. This reason alone is enough to put me off a little. I don't act that way, and it never really occurs to me that anyone else would - until it happens.

I've been here a lot longer than you have. Believe me... people act like complete fools sometimes. We had a member banned just last night, for example.

But like I said, while I'm not sure I'm sold on the idea of the contest, If enough members here are supportive, I'm not going to try and get in the way. The forum is for the members, after all. They wanted a Trucks section, they got it. They wanted an "Other Models" section, they got it. If enough of them want this contest, who knows... they might get it!

[charlie8575]

It's an interesting idea. I also understand all the concerns raised, and they do need to be considered.

A few other thoughts to pass along:

1. I actually like the 1/24-25 restriction. While I am fully aware of, and agree, that there are a lot of good models in other scales, where bi-scale is the most-widely available in terms of product availability, price point, detailing options, etc. This is therefore the best choice for a photo-only contest, as, at least from a size standpoint, everyone will be on a level playing field.

2. The themes, as with any live contest, are a good idea. I would suggest having parallel classes, though, for each class. For example, box stock/theme and box stock/general. I think that was one of your ideas, John, but I wasn't sure how you were writing it. This is my suggestion (or clarification.)

3. I would suggest 6-8 photos (front/rear/both sides/chassis/engine/interior/any specific detail you want to call attention to.) For those without expensive digital cameras or have a mobile phone camera that isn't all that great, Kodak makes a very high-quality disposable 35 mm camera with a macro lens. I had to use one in a pinch and was very pleased with what I got. While it wasn't the sames as my Canon FD or Pentax SF-10, it was still very good. And with 24 shots, you can take plenty of pictures and pick and choose which ones you like best.

Not a good photographer? Read this. Take Great Pictures. There are several really good tutorials, and they apply to film and digital.

4. Those who demonstrate poor sportsmanship in any way, shape or form should be barred from future entry. That goes for non-first-place people who are thin-skinned and unreasonable, and for people who gloat too much about winning.

I think this is a good idea, and I say we give it a try for one contest period to see what happens.

Charlie Larkin