Need a clarification on Box Stock Rules...

[Darin Bastedo]

I know there are variations from contest to contest, but I'm looking for a consesus on this issue. I'm working on a box stock build and when test fitted together the car sits higher than the 1:1 car. Now through out the build I've sanded trimmed and filed parts for correct fit, would trimming the mounts for the front and rear suspension to get the car to sit correctly be considered correcting or modifying? To clarify I'd be trimming less than 2mm from the part to get it to sit right, and am not doing radical lowering. simply adjusting the fit so that the car sits correctly. Does that go too far? If so I may do it and add other details and make it a a non box stock model.

[Danno]

It depends.

1. It depends on the specific rules for the specific contest. There is so much disparity and variation from contest to contest that it is almost impossible to come up with an answer that is universal ... unless you plan to enter nothing but IPMS competitions.

2. If you plan to enter nothing but IPMS International contests, the IPMS rules for Out Of Box could be considered definitive ... unless of course the specific IPMS chapter sponsoring the contest you plan to enter does not adhere to the IPMS International OOB rule. (That's right; some don't.)

3. Clear? As mud. For more clarity, see #1 above.

Edited June 5, 2011 by Danno

[62rebel]

according to my understanding of the rule as stated, the codicil to "thin to scale" such parts as might need material removed, covers a multitude of applications. IMHO, as long as the part is still readily recognizable as sourced from the kit, i feel that you're okay with OOB. but, as always, check with the ruling body of the contest in particular, to avoid having a model DQ'ed.

[Scale-Master]

Since you are trying to correct an issue of accuracy with the kit, I'd consider it within the rules. If you were lowering it to make it look like other than what the kit intends, and lower than the stock height should be, it would be less of a pass in my opinion.

[Scott Colmer]

Two more box stock whatabouts:

1) How about sending parts to be rechromed to make up for poor chrome?

2) How about joining two parts and having them rechromed to eliminate the seam (Blower scoops) or having parts rechromed to correct sprue cut off marks?

Scott

[Harry P.]

The only possible way to answer this question is to check the rules for the specific contest you want to enter.

Otherwise, there is no answer! The rules are all over the place.

[Greg Myers]

" add rigging and antennas; and add simple

tape or decal seat belts in the cockpit of an aircraft

or the interior of a vehicle"

might lead one to believe one may include wiring and plumbing?

So, if it's in the instructions ?

Edited June 6, 2011 by Greg Myers

[highway]

" add rigging and antennas; and add simple

tape or decal seat belts in the cockpit of an aircraft

or the interior of a vehicle"

might lead one to believe one may include wiring and plumbing?

No, regardless of the fact of making them out of sprue just simply because it's in the box as John said, that would be a direct violation of the rules, as seen in this rule.

D. IT IS NOT PERMITTED TO: vacuform,

manufacture, or replace any part, or substitute

parts from another kit; cut or separate canopies,

surfaces, hatches, doors, etc. (no major surgery);

combine a standard kit with a conversion kit; add

anything other than specified on the instruction

sheet except as shown in Section C above.

The way I read the areas I hightlighted in red, to plumb and wire something, even with sprue, I concider MANUFACTURING. I also not seen any wiring or plumbing shown on instruction sheets unless those parts are ALREADY INCLUDED in the kit, such as some of the late 80s/early 90s kits Monogram issued under the "High Performance Series" name or some of the kits that include molded plastic heater hoses or other plumbing such as some of the Monogram NASCAR kits that had plug wires molded to the distributor.

As for your opening question Darin, as a judge for the contest the former club I was a member of, I would say taking the small 2mm off the suspension to correct ride height would probably go unnoticed by most judges, just don't mention the modificationon your entry form!

[Terry Sumner]

As an IPMS judge and a head judge at at least one show I can tell you that doing the modification you refer to is not only ok...it would be expected. It would be considered basic modeling skills. Much like thinning the trailing edges of airplane wings for a more realistic depiction.

[Danno]

out of sprue yes, because it came in the box

Only if the kit's instructions call for wiring or plumbing to be added by stretching sprue.

[highway]

Only if the kit's instructions call for wiring or plumbing to be added by stretching sprue.

Is there an echo in here!?!?!

[Greg Myers]

How is wiring and plumbing different from " rigging and antennas" ?

[Pete J.]

you are correct

yes you can send parts out to be rechromed

With IPMS rules you have to read into them a little bit, its kind of like old stock car racing, if they don't say you can't do it, then do it. as long as it looks like it came out of the box.

I have to disagree with you on this one. Rule number one states:

"1.The IPMS/USA National Contest is open only to members of IPMS/USA or other national IPMS branches. Any current member of IPMS/USA or any other national branch of IPMS is eligible to enter any number of models in the National Contest. A member may also serve as a "proxy" to enter models for a fellow member who is not attending the convention. Entry fees for proxy models may be set at the discretion of the Host Chapter. All entries except chapter/group entries must be the sole work of the individual whose name is on the entry blank. Commercially built and/or finished models that do not require significant additional work by the modeler will be ineligible."

As such, sending an item out for rechroming in my opinion constitues having another person working on your model and would be no differant than having it painted by someone else. There are plenty of good paint treatments that a modeler can do instead.

[Greg Myers]

Doesn't seem right.I think out of the box means the way it came in the box, before you took it out of the box.I also think if the rigging, antennas, wiring or plumbing didn't come in the box it can't be used out of the box. Now that's just my opinion and I have only judged a few contests.

[scale trucker]

so no chrome foil.. because its not in the box!!!!!!!

[highway]

How is wiring and plumbing different from " rigging and antennas" ?

Obviously to IPMS there's a difference. I feel it should be like every non IPMS contest I've ever attended, IF IT WASN'T PART OF THE KIT WHEN YOU OPENED IT, IT'S NOT ALLOWED!

so no chrome foil.. because its not in the box!!!!!!!

Well, glue and paint aren't (normally) in the box either, so I guess box stock should be who can pile the parts the prettiest!!!

Chrome foil is allowed at most contests because it is a finishing product just like paint would be.

[Pete J.]

so by your logic, since the chrome comes already done in a kit you had somebody else work on your model. Sorry but I am friends with a lot of IPMS head Judges, who have judged several National Contests, and sending stuff out for replating is acceptable.

Well, if you want to pick nits, not so. We are talking about OOB which to my way of thinking is what came in the box. If your aftermarket chromer came in the box, then I might agree. Paint and foil have always been alowed because the modeler applied them. Having someone else do processes to your model other than what came in the box doesn't qualify. As I said, it is like having another modeler paint the model for you. Not is the spirit of OOB. As to judging, I would contend that aftermarket chroming may have been acceptable some time ago, but there are so many differant ways for the modeler to do chrome themselves now, that it just doesn't seem right to let that continue.

[Danno]

Personally, I agree with Pete J's interpretation. But my personal take on the issue does not matter, unless it is a contest for which I am the judging authority.

There have been a couple of references to "IPMS" but IPMS chapters do not interpret and apply the IPMS rules uniformly, universally, or consistently. Different chapters do different things. Sometimes the same chapter can interpret/apply the same rules differently, depending on who is 'head judge' for a specific event.

HOWEVER, the bottom line is just what I've said before ~~~ IT DEPENDS ON THE SPECIFIC, INDIVIDUAL CONTEST.

THE ONLY WAY TO BE CERTAIN AND TO BE SAFE IS TO FIND OUT HOW IT WOULD BE INTERPRETED AND APPLIED BY THE JUDGING AUTHORITY OF THE SPECIFIC CONTEST.

What might be acceptable at one event may be prohibited at another, even if both are promoted by the same entity.

[Scale-Master]

I'd like to echo a point made by Pete J. "In the Spirit of the Rules."

The IPMS USA rules do clearly state that all work is to be "the Sole Work of the Entrant".

They also clearly state BMF, decals and paint are allowed to be used. Want to get into a flocking discussion too?

Farming any work out, while you could get away with it, is not in the spirit of the rules. That includes sending parts out to be chromed. Everyone gets an equal chrome shot from their kit, to send it out for re-plating is not doing your own work. If it was a bad shot, you can get a replacement from the manufacturer. If it is not available, well, apply your modeling skills and deal with it within the boundaries of the rules. BMF, Alclad or your choice of metalizer is allowed... Or maybe opt for that Endura bumper look...

A little common sense applied to the spirit of the rules should provide you with the correct answers as to what is or is not allowed.

Or you could just read all the way through the rules for the contest you intend to enter...

[Chuck Most]

I never build box-stock, but if I had to do so, my rule of thumb would be- Paint, adhesives, and foil... EVERYTHING ELSE comes out of the kit box. Not sure how well I would do at such a show, but I think I'd pretty much fit into any show's 'box stock' rules if I stuck with that.

I often wonder if the judges even know what 'box stock' is, I can't tell you how many times I've seen a model at a show presented as 'box stock', and it's (for instance) a '60 Ford Starliner with the wheels and tires from a '62 Catalina kit. Box stock means SAME BOX, guys! Yeah, I know that not every judge can be an expert on what comes in every kit, but you'd think SOMEBODY would have said something...

[BigEdsGarage]

I agree with what has been said, that it is best to check for SPECIFIC contest rules rather than generalize. IPMS rules may mean nothing at certain contests. That being said I figured I would throw this out for comments.

How far can one take weathering in an OOB contest? Paint, washes, filters, pigments would all seem OK.

But say I wanted to drill out some bullet holes or add some rot holes to a car model by drilling or cutting out small sections of plastic? Technically I am not adding anything that didn't come with the kit, but rather taking it away. Acceptable or not?

What about if I do a beater version and leave off a wheel cover on two rims or it has a missing bumper, grille or even a hood to enhance the theme? Does this count against me in judging? I've never read any rules that say ALL kit parts have to be used, so what if they are intentionally left off?.

[Harry P.]

Or you could just read all the way through the rules for the contest you intend to enter...

Given all the "what ifs" you guys are posting here, doesn't the line I quoted here (and I said the exact same thing many posts earlier... ) pretty much answer the question about as simply and directly as possible???

If you have a question about what does or does not qualify as "box stock" in a particular contest you want to enter... talk to someone in charge who can tell you, or just read the freakin' contest rules! Question answered and problem solved. Pretty simple.

[Darin Bastedo]

Given all the "what ifs" you guys are posting here, doesn't the line I quoted here (and I said the exact same thing many posts earlier... ) pretty much answer the question about as simply and directly as possible???

If you have a question about what does or does not qualify as "box stock" in a particular contest you want to enter... talk to someone in charge who can tell you, or just read the freakin' contest rules! Question answered and problem solved. Pretty simple.

I'm not intending to enter a particular contest with this, but would eventually. I just thiought I'd get ideas on this and if it did overstep the rules of oob class I'd add a few extra details and not worry about it, But I think I got a good enough answer.

[Harry P.]

I'm not intending to enter a particular contest with this, but would eventually. I just thiought I'd get ideas on this and if it did overstep the rules of oob class I'd add a few extra details and not worry about it, But I think I got a good enough answer.

Darin, my comments were not directed at you. I just found it funny that so many people started asking, "well, what about if I do this?," or "What if I do that?"... it got to the point where I just had to say it... read the freakin' rules! B)

[Danno]

I often wonder if the judges even know what 'box stock' is, I can't tell you how many times I've seen a model at a show presented as 'box stock', and it's (for instance) a '60 Ford Starliner with the wheels and tires from a '62 Catalina kit. Box stock means SAME BOX, guys! Yeah, I know that not every judge can be an expert on what comes in every kit, but you'd think SOMEBODY would have said something...

Generally, any good quality contest with a Box Stock or Out of Box category will require that the builder provide and display a copy of the instructions with his/her entry. The judges can then review the instructions to see exactly what was or was not supplied in the kit. It usually resolves any questions or issues, and that's precisely why it's done.

If the entrant fails to provide and display the instructions, the model is disqualified.

One thing to keep in mind, at least from my judging perspective: Just because the model is displayed and/or entered, does not mean it has been judged and considered for award/s. Again drawing on experience, where models have been entered in 'Box Stock' class but did not meet the criteria of the class, they were disqualified and not judged. Spectators and entrants would not have seen any indication of that, because the models remained on the table ... they just did not "win."

Given all the "what ifs" you guys are posting here, doesn't the line I quoted here (and I said the exact same thing many posts earlier... ) pretty much answer the question about as simply and directly as possible???

If you have a question about what does or does not qualify as "box stock" in a particular contest you want to enter... talk to someone in charge who can tell you, or just read the freakin' contest rules! Question answered and problem solved. Pretty simple.

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