Jantrix Posted October 18, 2011 Author Posted October 18, 2011 execpt, thats not really a rat rod. rat rod: some rusty, usually poorly buit monstrosity. Ah, not necessarily. The definition of most any automotive term: hot rod, donk, muscle car, rat rod are always open to a persons personal opinion and have been debated vehemently on this forum more than once. If you asked most anyone what my car is in the above pic, they would call it a rat rod. Just because it's not rusty or poorly built it's not a "rat"?
MachinistMark Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 bingo! rat rods by their very definition are rusty and poorly built Well built Traditionally style hot rods are just that hot rods or Traditional rods!
Dr. Cranky Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 I apply the term loosely to any vehicle that's been modified (Franken-sh-teined) together and it clearly shows the builders personality and or attitude! That encompasses a huge field of possibilities, and I like it like that.
Mike Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 When we host our contests, we judge on a criteria of building quality first, not finish. I've seen the highest gloss beautiful paint job with aftermarket yada yada but the guy failed to bother with any seam issues on the interior or underside of the car like the exhaust system and axles. No. I do not think a model with a flat/matte finish should have a separate category. I believe models should be judged on building basics, then moving on to details and finishes. When I've judged I have heard complaints and I've explained to that person why they didn't get 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc. and I inform them of the reason I've judged as I have. Most times the individual understands and next contest those issues have been addressed. The rest of the time the individual marches off pouting and shows up the next contest with the same errors as before.
Pete J. Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 Frankly, it takes skill to lay down a great paint job regardless of sheen. Flat paint jobs require that the underlying work be flawless. That is why I use primer as a guide coat for sanding, Every possible ding and scratch shows up. Gloss jobs on the other hand have the potential to create as many problems with depth and evenness of surface. The fact is that non glossy paint is not just limited to rats and hot rods. I have seen several Mercedes AMG SLS's done in either silver or titanium gold in a matt or semi gloss finish. There was also an Enzo in flat black(looked mean as heck). My experience in judging has taught me to look at the quality of the finish as a whole. Is it even and consistant across the model? If it is, then move on to other issues. I think it would be very inappropiate to set up a catagory just based on gloss alone. Now that would really open a can of worms. If you did it by gloss, would you then subcatagorize with parallel catagoies to those in the glossy catigory? I would contend that this is a judge education issue, not a catagory issue.
Guest Johnny Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 Rat rods and matte/suede finished cars should be banned from all model contest competitions!!! Duck and cover!!! Just kidding!
Dr. Cranky Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 Rat rods and matte/suede finished cars should be banned from all model contest competitions!!! Duck and cover!!! Just kidding! Johnny, you almost got my heart to skip a beat and for a moment I had this expression on my face: :lol: This thread is really taking off, and I love the discussion . . . it feels like one of the more adult discussions about the hobby we've had in a while. And civil too! THANK YOU.
Junkman Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 Is it fair to put them against builds with awesome gloss finishes where they might suffer in the eyes of a judge who prefers gloss? If a judge judges based on his personal preferences, he should be recused. He has to judge the quality and execution of the build. His personal opinion he can discuss at the bar, but during judging it is irrelevant.
Dr. Cranky Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 Christian, your point is well taken, but I'm afraid it is easier said than done. I think a lot of judges DO judged based on their personal preferences. I think a good way to avoid that is to have particular themes.
Guest Johnny Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 This thread is really taking off, and I love the discussion . . . it feels like one of the more adult discussions about the hobby we've had in a while. And civil too! THANK YOU. This same discussion comes up in the 1:1 world too and it can get pretty dicey at times.
Pete J. Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 Christian, your point is well taken, but I'm afraid it is easier said than done. I think a lot of judges DO judged based on their personal preferences. I think a good way to avoid that is to have particular themes. Because we are dealing with humans, you can count on some bias coming into play. Every judge has some bias, wether it is mold lines or ejector pin marks or paint issues, we all have them. The issue is to reduce it to the lowest possible level so that the only factor is skill of the build. Say what you will about IPMS, there judging standard are really aimed at reducing bias by concentrating on skill of the build. A good judge will stick to issues of quality and not judge on personal preferance to the largest extent possible. That is very difficult to do. Don't believe me? Next time you go to a contest, step over to a catagory that you really don't like and try to judge it. See how close you can come to the final outcome. I think you will find it educational.
Jantrix Posted October 18, 2011 Author Posted October 18, 2011 This same discussion comes up in the 1:1 world too and it can get pretty dicey at times. LOL, yeah try having a discussion about rat rods on the HAMB forum. They'll run you outa town on a rail.
sjordan2 Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 (edited) How many categories can a model car contest handle? I don't know, since I don't attend or participate. But it seems to me there has to be limited number of categories, particularly at smaller, local levels. I would think that rat rods and rustbuckets should take their chances in rods & customs. Maybe there needs to be a separate category for "Overall Skill & Creativity." Edited October 18, 2011 by sjordan2
MachinistMark Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 LOL, yeah try having a discussion about rat rods on the HAMB forum. They'll run you outa town on a rail. its true, to TRUE hot rodders, Rat rodders are like lepers. As they should be.
Chuck Most Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 its true, to TRUE hot rodders, Rat rodders are like lepers. As they should be. Why hasn't this guy been re-banned yet?
Dr. Cranky Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 I don't know, I think they have the right spirit of fun and ingenuity . . . I'm thinking of what Billy Lane did with the motorcycle world, and Indian Larry. Those guys always thought outside the box. It is all a matter of personal taste. To each their own, right?
Jantrix Posted October 18, 2011 Author Posted October 18, 2011 Why hasn't this guy been re-banned yet? Save us from anyone that refers to themselves as "true" anything. It just speaks of narrow mindedness.
whale392 Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 (edited) Sorry Virgil, I have to disagree with you on your Billy Lane comment. Billy Lane didn't just bolt whatever was laying around together and call it a 'Rat' and therefore be instantly cool. Having been in his shop, talked with he and Warren on several occasions, and having been on some of their creations (Yes, I do know the Lane brothers) I can tell you they ARE NOT 'RAT' bikes. Every one of Billys' bikes has countless engineering innovations and meticulous attention to detail, not to mention engineering functionality into quite a few of his bikes. His weren't half-hearted attempts at cool. Neither were any of his 4-wheeled vehicles. They are functional and traditional, NOT some cobbled-together monstrosity. But I digress; back on the topic at hand. Like I and others have said, if it is well built, finish sheen should not matter. Edited October 18, 2011 by whale392
Jantrix Posted October 18, 2011 Author Posted October 18, 2011 Brad, if you reread what Cranky wrote, I don't believe he was suggesting Billy Lane built "rats", just that he was innovative and built with his own sense of style.
crazyjim Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 I'm having a difficult time keeping my mouth shut about this subject. I like SHINY paint jobs and have spent the last 50 years or so trying to get the ultimate gloss and I'm not there yet. To me, rat rods are those vehicles that are put together with all kinds of different parts from all kinds of different vehicles. Flat/satin finishes are a whole different world. Rat rod and flat/satin finishes do not NOT necessarily go together. Once the rolling chassis & engine are done (1:1), many people like to get the body on to see how the vehicle will handle and run. The body might be in primer - but NOT a rat rod! Some people purposely finish their car with a satin finish complete with flames, pin striping, scallops, etc. because that's the final finish they want. Again, not necessarily a rat rod. I congratulate the people who are able to take parts from all over and put together a vehicle that runs. You would never see me in one of those contraptions because it's not my style.
MachinistMark Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 i have no issues with flat/satin paint jobs. But rust is to steel as cancer is to flesh - its to be cut out and ground away - not showcased.
Jantrix Posted October 18, 2011 Author Posted October 18, 2011 i have no issues with flat/satin paint jobs. But rust is to steel as cancer is to flesh - its to be cut out and ground away - not showcased. I agree completely. The only thing we disagree on is your definition of rat rod. Simple as that. I have built models with rust on them and will continue to do so, because I enjoy it from an artists perspective. Would I have a 1:1 rod with any? Not on your life.
MachinistMark Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 Rat rods are what i posted, S***tty looking welds, rust, and generally thrown together appearance is what a rat rod is, That truckster you posted, is a wicked lookin rig, and no where near a "rat rod"
Jantrix Posted October 18, 2011 Author Posted October 18, 2011 (edited) Rat rods are what i posted, S***tty looking welds, rust, and generally thrown together appearance is what a rat rod is. That truckster you posted, is a wicked lookin rig, and no where near a "rat rod" LOL. I think we're gonna just have to agree to disagree on this. And thanks. Edited October 18, 2011 by Jantrix
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