Revell's plastic crazing under Duplicolor...anyone else seeing this?

[kalbert]

Revell is an American company, still..at least last time I looked. China seems to me to be halfway around the world from America. My tiny little company is an American company too, and I can't blame poor quality of my own output on what happens in China

Revell doesn't do any production in the US, hasn't for years. It's all made in China. It might be commissioned in the US, and maybe even engineered here, but tools are cut and plastic is formed in China. In addition, building the F1 track could well have caused a worldwide shortage. As demand increased significantly and supply began to dwindle, raw material suppliers worldwide would have begun exporting to cash in on the boom.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Okay, from now on when I work on aircraft, instead of doing my due-diligence, I'm going to source known-inferior and counterfeit AN bolts from China. Then when airplanes fail in flight (which won't happen all that often anyway, and only lunatic-fringe folks will care) I'll just say "as supply of the metals for alloying steel began to dwindle, rather than sourcing the REAL, CORRECT hardware, I just bought whatever cheap ###### my Chinese suppliers sent me. It's NOT MY FAULT".

The morals to this thread are "don't rock the boat, take whatever inferior garbage anyone sells you, waste your own time compensating for the cost-engineering quality reductions, do everything the way everyone else does it, and if you don't like that, you don't understand business and you're a whiner".

No wonder the US is rapidly going down the toilet.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy

[Harry P.]

If it's a fact that Revell is using a plastic formulation that's cheaper for them to use (and none of us really know for sure)... can you blame them?

If any of us ran Revell, we'd probably do the same thing. The bottom line is the first thing a company looks at when making any kind of business decision. If Revell figured that they could save a few cents per kit by using a cheaper plastic, you can bet that's exactly what they would do.

The airplane hardware thing isn't really a good analogy... that sort of stuff has to meet certain standards. What standards does the plastic a model car is made of have to meet? Probably only one: it has to be cheap to buy.

[kalbert]

Nevermind, not worth the fight.

Edited May 5, 2013 by kalbert

[kalbert]

Harry, you're right. I'd rather Revell change their formula and keep making kits than stick with the same old and die off. If that's even what's going on.

[Ace-Garageguy]

If it's a fact that Revell is using a plastic formulation that's cheaper for them to use (and none of us really know for sure)... can you blame them?

If any of us ran Revell, we'd probably do the same thing. The bottom line is the first thing a company looks at when making any kind of business decision. If Revell figured that they could save a few cents per kit by using a cheaper plastic, you can bet that's exactly what they would do.

The airplane hardware thing isn't really a good analogy... that sort of stuff has to meet certain standards. What standards does the plastic a model car is made of have to meet? Probably only one: it has to be cheap to buy.

Actually, the airplane thing is part of a true story. Yes, the hardware has to meet certain standards...there's a paperwork trail...and the market was flooded several years ago with counterfeit Chinese hardware that had phony documentation. The stuff is still out there. Everyone involved knowingly sold ######, jeopardizing lives and multi-million dollar aircraft. All in the name of profit, the holy "bottom line". A recent report states that half of the US nuclear plants also contain counterfeit fasteners. And counterfeit chips are showing up in US military equipment.

There are engineering parameters established for EVERY material in EVERY product, established by the company that does the design and engineering, including the injection-molding plastic Revell markets as models. The simple fact is that they don't set their standards very high. When COST is the PRIMARY consideration, the product and the consumer suffer.

But dodging the truth and calling things something other than what they are seems to be the norm these days.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy

[Nxr]

I wish they would outsource the car kits to poland/russia/czech republic/hungary like they do with their plane kits now, not to hate on China but i really hate the new made in China kits I always look for the made in USA kits from both amt and revell, i am very happy to pay the extra dollar for them knowing it was once made by hardworking people in this nation.

[southpier]

"they" put poison in baby formula?

may as well give the kid a Coke!

[Ace-Garageguy]

I'm really sorry I brought this up. I have no idea what I'm talking about. I don't know how to paint. Revell is perfect. The plastic they use is perfect. Their management, scaling and proportions are always perfect. The only thing that matters in business is the bottom line. Anything any company does to remain in business is justified and perfect.The Chinese are perfect, so it follows that all Chinese business practices are perfect. I should be quiet, humble, and thankful to be permitted to even look upon such universal perfection.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy

[James2]

PERFECT!

[Ace-Garageguy]

PERFECT!

:lol: :lol:

[Guest G Holding]

Do you happen to have a photo of, lets say, the "Futuramic" lettering inside the '50 Olds rear quarter panel trim, after 15 or 20 coats of material and then foiled? I'd really be interested in seeing the outcome. You just might make a believer out of me. Always willing to learn something new that works.

No William I don't and don't think I will. If you think misting many thin coats is new, you are not as sharp as I thought you to be.

I would do a bit of masking after foiling on that area, no need for that much paint in details if foiling will be done.

I really do not understand the HORROR I generate on this forum when I talk of 15 to 20 coats from primer to clear, as most painters will use that many and with sanding, color sanding, and buffing that paint is still can have thin edges to cause worry.

3 rattle bomb coats may work for some here, but I have 2 primer coats on before deciding the final color sometimes !

I have no filled in panel lines, doors or trunks either. Trim I will smooth and remove many builds, so that is not a major concern, but can be dealt with if needed.

[Guest G Holding]

I'm really sorry I brought this up. I have no idea what I'm talking about. I don't know how to paint. Revell is perfect. The plastic they use is perfect. Their management, scaling and proportions are always perfect. The only thing that matters in business is the bottom line. Anything any company does to remain in business is justified and perfect.The Chinese are perfect, so it follows that all Chinese business practices are perfect. I should be quiet, humble, and thankful to be permitted to even look upon such universal perfection.

Why ??? if you really believe what you dislike, drop the good folks at Revell a note, you might even get a reply.

Now I do not want to go off on design issues, shape, proportions, et all.

BUT plastic quality is something we need do deal with. I love HOK and automotive paints, but real world, the solvent based paints are going bye bye....no not now, but the EPA is there, so start using WB....I have started and am getting to like them better and better, but it does take a different approach and The clear is still an issue.

So ask for ideas on how to improve, not B*@#h about Revell

[Ace-Garageguy]

.... If you think misting many thin coats is new, you are not as sharp as I thought you to be.

I often turn out to be not-as-sharp as I think myself to be, too. Misting many thin coats isn't new to me, it's just not the way I've preferred to go about getting results that satisfy my overly critical (of my own work) nature. I haven't been airbrushing models recently but it's on the program, as there are colors I just cant get in spraybombs. I'll be evaluating techniques and using what works best for me.

[Ace-Garageguy]

... so start using WB....I have started and am getting to like them better and better, but it does take a different approach and The clear is still an issue.

I got off on the wrong foot with the water-based paints in the 1:1 industry, and have an otherwise excellent '89 GMC factory waterbase-painted truck that's self-stripping. Truly impressive, for sure. I probably won't live long enough to see the total demise of solvent-based paints, so I'll probably give the H2O stuff a pass.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy

[Erik Smith]

I'm really sorry I brought this up. I have no idea what I'm talking about. I don't know how to paint. Revell is perfect. The plastic they use is perfect. Their management, scaling and proportions are always perfect. The only thing that matters in business is the bottom line. Anything any company does to remain in business is justified and perfect.The Chinese are perfect, so it follows that all Chinese business practices are perfect. I should be quiet, humble, and thankful to be permitted to even look upon such universal perfection.

Sad, but true. We live in a global "free" market society that has been created and allowed to flourish. Without getting into economics and politics - which would solve absolutely nothing either way - yes, the only thing that matters is the bottom line. Hobbico is an employee owned company, so if the employees want to cut their "share", then they would opt for more expensive plastic that doesn't etch or have other faults. One person may say "yes, that would be good", but 10 others would look at their monthly bills and say "no, doesn't work for me". It's justified, but perfect? No, not close.

I don't think bringing this stuff up is wrong or a big deal - it's a discussion. When I referred to forum users as "the fringe", I meant it from the standpoint of where all the kits will get sold - we notice (and matter some), but sooooo many kits will get purchased and built/stored/destroyed and people won't realize the plastic now is any different than it ever was.

Now, about those batteries in the Dreamliner...

[martinfan5]

Bill, why dont you use a plastic safe primer?. it sounds like you have been well aware of the plastic formula Revell is using is not strong enough to handle hot automotive primers, I completely understand why we chose, or like to use automotive primers and paints on our builds.

I no longer even think about using duplicolor/plaskticote primers on any of the new plastic formula's, I know better now, maybe its time to switch to plastic safe primer?,

We can complain about it about tell the cows come home and cook us dinner , or use a plastic safe primer

[Ace-Garageguy]

Bill, why dont you use a plastic safe primer?. it sounds like you have been well aware of the plastic formula Revell is using is not strong enough to handle hot automotive primers, I completely understand why we chose, or like to use automotive primers and paints on our builds.

I no longer even think about using duplicolor/plaskticote primers on any of the new plastic formula's, I know better now, maybe its time to switch to plastic safe primer?,

We can complain about it about tell the cows come home and cook us dinner , or use a plastic safe primer

Primarily, I'd prefer not to switch primers because Duplicolor, if fully dry and not sanded through in spots, allows me to use any topcoat, including automotive and aircraft paints that I have small quantities of. I don't know about the ability of "plastic-safe" primers to withstand hot topcoats. Yet. I'm also extremely familiar with the build and sanding characteristics of the entire Duplicolor line. I HAVE seen Bob Downie (a member of ACME here) shoot Duplicolor COLOR over Tamiya PRIMER, I THINK, so I may have to look into it.

I HAVE been tweeking my application technique of Duplicolor primer over the weekend and have come up with a method that works acceptably well on the softest of the kit plastics I currently have.

I honestly didn't open this thread to whine and dump on Revell, but rather to find out if this was a somewhat common problem with later model Revell kits. The VAST majority of kits on my shelves are vintage, and crazing is a non-issue.

Also in all honesty, I spend SO much of my professional time compensating for the poor quality or poor workmanship of folks, even so-called experts, that I'm just kind of exasperated when I have to do it in my hobby pursuits as well. Anyone who had my life would understand my frustration.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy

[jaydar]

Why ??? if you really believe what you dislike, drop the good folks at Revell a note, you might even get a reply.

Now I do not want to go off on design issues, shape, proportions, et all.

BUT plastic quality is something we need do deal with. I love HOK and automotive paints, but real world, the solvent based paints are going bye bye....no not now, but the EPA is there, so start using WB....I have started and am getting to like them better and better, but it does take a different approach and The clear is still an issue.

So ask for ideas on how to improve, not B*@#h about Revell

I believe Europe already requires water based paints and clears. My guess is European builders will get there before U.S. builders.

joe.

Edited May 6, 2013 by jaydar

[Brett Barrow]

... I don't know about the ability of "plastic-safe" primers to withstand hot topcoats...

Future (or whatever it's called now) withstands anything you can throw at it, and so does B-I-N. Both are alcohol-based and are way "cooler" than even your typical hobby paints. I think that's the key, the hot solvents have no effect on the alcohol-based stuff.

[Brett Barrow]

I believe Europe already requires water based paints and clears. My guess is European builders will get there before U.S. builders.

joe.

A lot of paint shops are going waterborne voluntarily just because they like the stuff once they learn to use it and switch to the proper equipment. Once they get a good waterborne sandable primer (PPG just came out with one that's getting good feedback) and a good waterborne clear, they'll make the switch completely. Stuff's come a loooooooooong way in just the last couple years.

[Ace-Garageguy]

I recall in 2005, the shop I ran experimented with some waterborne primers. They seemed to take forever to dry, required baking, and were generally a pain in the tail if you were trying to maintain a production schedule.

When I left in 2007, I recall some instant-cure, UV activated primers were hitting the market, and that seemed like it would be a game changer. That was my last experience with the stuff.

The fact that GM's entire fleet of vehicles painted with waterborne stuff around '89 spontaneously self-stripped didn't endear them to a lot of folks.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy

[Chuck Most]

I haven't noticed any problems with Revell's plastic being crazed by paint any more than usual (and I'm using mostly the same products and techniques as you, Bill). I HAVE noticed that some of the plastics in a handful of Revell kits are a bit harder and more brittle than what they typically use- the Monogram '77 Chevy van reissue being one. On the other hand, I had absolutely no problems at all with crazing on that harder plastic.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Thanks for your input, Chuck. Like you, I find the harder, more brittle ones don't craze.

I'm going to say the problem I've had is in large part my application technique. I spray full wet coats with enough primer to flow out and usually eliminate most sanding. No orange peel=less sanding. The problem is that full wet coats put a lot of solvent directly on the surface, whereas modelers who "mist" their primer allow a lot of the solvents to flash out BEFORE the primer even hits the surface. Though this minimizes crazing, it also makes for "dry-spray" and an increased appearance of orange peel.

Still, the fact remains that the older, harder plastics, don't craze at all with my hot / wet application.

[kalbert]

A lot of paint shops are going waterborne voluntarily just because they like the stuff once they learn to use it and switch to the proper equipment. Once they get a good waterborne sandable primer (PPG just came out with one that's getting good feedback) and a good waterborne clear, they'll make the switch completely. Stuff's come a loooooooooong way in just the last couple years.

Very true. Waterborne is much better to work with when you understand what they can do and are equipped for it. The health advantages alone are a major advantage for the guys who spend 40 hours a week working with paint. Those guys aren't worried about being forced to use it, they want to use it!