White tires/Black tires

[Steven Zimmerman]

Harry, you have made a 'career' about correcting the rest of us. You 'might be' wrong. Take your medicine, and be a good boy. Seriously, get over it (EVERYBODY !).....'Z'

[Guest]

He has made a career out of dogging me and jumping on me every chance he gets. I have no idea why.

It's easy Harry. YOU expect everyone to follow the rules to a T with no mistakes. YOU start a thread pissing and moaning about people asking questions in the General section or posting other topics in the wrong section. Yet, when it suits YOUR purpose, YOU don't have a problem with it. YOU can post requests for eggs(Wanted), info on a builder(Where's Waldo) color of tires( Question & Answers) or whatever else you like in the General Section. But, let a forum member do it and it's a major problem. Funny how that works ain't it?

[sjordan2]

The actual MODELING question is in Q&A. THIS thread is an automotive HISTORY question.

Look, I like both you guys. Is this really a big deal ?

I agree. I don't get the kerfuffle.

[Harry P.]

It's easy Harry. YOU expect everyone to follow the rules to a T with no mistakes. YOU start a thread pissing and moaning about people asking questions in the General section or posting other topics in the wrong section. Yet, when it suits YOUR purpose, YOU don't have a problem with it. YOU can post requests for eggs(Wanted), info on a builder(Where's Waldo) color of tires( Question & Answers) or whatever else you like in the General Section. But, let a forum member do it and it's a major problem. Funny how that works ain't it?

Ok, I'll go reeeeeeeally sloooooooow so you can follow along. And this is the last time I explain this to you.

1. Looking for a plastic egg. Posted in general, because the "Wanted" section is for specific model kits or model parts, not plastic eggs. You might want to actually read the titles and subtitles of the forum sections so you understand what goes where. I think looking for a plastic egg is more of a "general" question than a "looking for a specific model kit or model part" question.

2. When did Ford switch from black to white tires is a question about an event in the history of the Ford Motor Company that clearly belongs in the "General" section, because it's a general automotive question, NOT a model building question. Again, if you would bother to read the section titles and subtitles this might actually become clear to you.

3. Information I posted in "Where's Waldo" about Bryan M. was posted in "Where's Waldo" because it was a direct answer to a question that someone else asked about Bryan IN THE 'WHERE'S WALDO?" SECTION. Should I have answered his "Where's Waldo" question in the "Under Glass" section???

Did you get that? Did I use small enough words for you?

Seriously... if you can't follow along with the tour group, maybe you need to find a simpler forum. I'm tired of your BS and nonsense... I have enough to do dealing with stuff here without you constantly yapping at me.

[Guest]

Ok, I'll go reeeeeeeally sloooooooow so you can follow along. And this is the last time I explain this to you.

1. Looking for a plastic egg. Posted in general, because the "Wanted" section is for specific model kits or model parts, not plastic eggs. You might want to actually read the titles and subtitles of the forum sections so you understand what goes where. I think looking for a plastic egg is more of a "general" question than a "looking for a specific model kit or model part" question.

2. When did Ford switch from black to white tires is a question about an event in the history of the Ford Motor Company that clearly belongs in the "General" section, because it's a general automotive question, NOT a model building question. Again, if you would bother to read the section titles and subtitles this might actually become clear to you.

3. Information I posted in "Where's Waldo" about Bryan M. was posted in "Where's Waldo" because it was a direct answer to a question that someone else asked about Bryan IN THE 'WHERE'S WALDO?" SECTION. Should I have answered his "Where's Waldo" question in the "Under Glass" section???

Did you get that? Did I use small enough words for you?

Seriously... if you can't follow along with the tour group, maybe you need to find a simpler forum. I'm tired of your BS and nonsense... I have enough to do dealing with stuff here without you constantly yapping at me.

You really missed your calling Harry. With your ability to spin things, sling B.S. and use big words you don't know the meaning of, you should have been a politician! Like Steve said, you've made a career out of correcting everyone else. But, you sure can't take it when it's you that's wrong.

Oh wait.... I forgot........you're never wrong.

[sjordan2]

I think some people around here have personal vendettas or need remedial reading courses. Would these people have the guts to say such things face-to-face with Harry, or continue to hide behind the anonymity of the forum? (Sorry to use such big words).

And by the way, what particular model or modeling technique is asked about in this post? Don't see anything that belongs in modeling Q&A, which is clearly described this way:

Questions and Answers

Do you have a specific modeling question? Wondering how to...? Need help? Suggestions? Looking for answers? Ask here.

The second half clearly relates to the first half. That forum is not a grab bag for just anything with a question mark. But if you think it should be, perhaps you should go attack the following current threads, especially the last one on the list...

How Important is Finishing/Completing a Model?

Started by Casey, Today, 06:04 PM

What did you get today?

Started by CaseyG83, 14 Sep 2007

The most Iconic Gene Winfield custom and it doesn't even have wheels?

Started by torinobradley, Today, 03:48 PM

So how's the weather where YOU are..?

Started by Ramfins59, Yesterday, 09:45 PM

Would you buy them if Round2 reissued them?

Started by plowboy, 19 Apr 2013 1 2

Edited May 6, 2013 by sjordan2

[Art Anderson]

To start with, as Longbox55 correctly pointed out in the now-closed thread on this topic, there never were white tires on early cars (from the beginning to about 1914 or so), and for that matter, there weren't any truly black tires until the advent of synthetic rubber made from petroleum byproducts during WW-II. Prior to our entering WW-II, all rubber used in the US was made from natural latex, which is milky when harvested, but turned a buff color when vulcanized. But why do those early tires show up white in contemporary photographs? Very simple:

Prior to the 1930's, when all photography was black & white, the camera's of the day, along with the photographic emulsions available, were very poor at "translating" the myriad colors into innumerable shades of gray--hence the often stark contrast, particularly in bright sun, making light colors seem almost bright white, and many darker colors appearing as coal black. Such photo's, when they are shown (in books, newspapers, magazines and yes, online!) always seem to perpetuate that myth that early car tires were white. To see what color those tires actually were when newly mounted, take a look at a "classic" 10-speed bicycle tire--the one with those light yellowish-tan sidewalls--up until the late 1990's, those bicycle tires had sidewalls in natural latex rubber, combined with black synthetic rubber for the treads and covering the bead. True white rubber on car tires really didn't come into use until the late 20's, when the first whitewall tires became available.

With the addition of carbon black to latex rubber, tires became gray, the darkness of the gray depending on the concentration of carbon black in the mix. Just as with paints, no matter how much black pigment you add to white (or in the case of vulcanized latex rubber, "buff"), you cannot come up with a true black. And, if one looks at pics of even new cars pre WW-II, the tires come across as dark gray, not truly black in color.

As for the change from natural latex color to "black" tires at Ford, that would have hinged on two factors: When Firestone (the exclusive rubber supplier Ford--tires, hoses, belts, floor mats) from 1903 until the fiasco of tire failures on Ford Explorers, changed their rubber blend would have been the key. I believe that would have been somwhere during 1913-14, and probably happened as black tires became available in quantity.

Hope this helps!

Art

[Guest]

Fascinating info Art, many thanks!

[Custom Hearse]

Thanks Art! That is interesting to learn the history of tires and the colors they were. I realize the truth you put forward about the tires being a grey color before WWII. I've seen many pictures of cars and if you look at the tires, they are not quite black. Thanks again for posting this!

[Harry P.]

Thanks, Art.

But why is it that in almost every photo of a restored car from that era with white tires, the tires really are just about white? Are these modern-day reproduction tires all wrong?

[sjordan2]

Interesting discussion here at the Antique Automobile Club site, which would support Art's note that they weren't really white - at least for very long.

http://forums.aaca.org/f169/white-tires-no-longer-available-317354.htm

Re: White Tires No Longer Available

C'mon, guys, the original "white" tires never stayed white longer than the first time it rained and Father had to drive the family to church in The Machine, along what passed for roads in those days. The old-style tires yellowed and cracked at an alarming rate, which is why we rarely see period photos of them, from more than a year or two after 1915, when black tires finally became available.

If you're going for an accurate restoration, rather than just gathering judging points, grab the in-stock Coker tires now, before they go and wreck the formula with non-yellowing stuff.

Gray seems to be a popular restoration tire with those AACA collectors, such as on this 1914 Buick:

I would think that a busy trade vehicle such as the Model T van in your picture would switch to longer-wearing gray tires as soon as possible. But you probably couldn't go wrong with factory-fresh all-white, yellowed with a few miles on them, or gray replacements.

Edited May 7, 2013 by sjordan2

[Art Anderson]

Thanks, Art.

But why is it that in almost every photo of a restored car from that era with white tires, the tires really are just about white? Are these modern-day reproduction tires all wrong?

Harry, I dunno, unless it's for the same reason that people restore old cars with incorrect finishes on some parts. The white tire thing in restorations comes, I suspect, from owners seeing, and mis-interpreting the colors of things from old, rather primitive black & white photographs. If you go to antique or classic car shows, stop and look at some of the restored trucks, for example: Older trucks had a lot of exposed wood in them, which was painted when they were originally built, oak being the primary wood for bed floors, stake fences and such. But, one can see at shows, and in most pictures of "restored" old trucks not only clear finished oak, but walnut, mahogany and the like. On a pickup bed floor? More highly finished than a concert grand piano? Not hardly--but people do it, because they think it looks properly restored.

I could go on, but my reference to wood in antique cars and trucks is an illustration of how "over restoration" crept in over the years.

Art

[Jon Cole]

Interesting. It is "perceived", rather than what was real. A true case of revisionist history. Thank you, Art.

[sjordan2]

My only question is why Coker Tires in Chattanooga -- the leading supplier of vintage tires for decades -- issued white tires that look like the Model T, and no yellowed variations. Maybe Corky Coker could explain.

[Harry P.]

My only question is why Coker Tires in Chattanooga -- the leading supplier of vintage tires for decades -- issued white tires that look like the Model T, and no yellowed variations. Maybe Corky Coker could explain.

That's what I was asking... obviously someone knows what the real color of these old tires was... and if they weren't really white, why are all the modern-day reproduction tires pure white? Wouldn't someone have put out a "correct" tire by now?

[Deano]

My only question is why Coker Tires in Chattanooga -- the leading supplier of vintage tires for decades -- issued white tires that look like the Model T, and no yellowed variations. Maybe Corky Coker could explain.

Maybe Corky doesn't have people knocking down his door wondering why he doesn't offer gum latex tires. Maybe restorers actually LIKE the white tires. Maybe tires made of modern compounds in the 'correct' color wouldn't look right anyway. Maybe the best bet would be to ask Corky cause I can pretty much bet he's not reading this thread.

[sjordan2]

That's what I was asking... obviously someone knows what the real color of these old tires was... and if they weren't really white, why are all the modern-day reproduction tires pure white? Wouldn't someone have put out a "correct" tire by now?

I think Art is closest to the facts, and that the AACA guy I quoted knows what he's talking about regarding the tires yellowing very fast. I would go with the kind of "buff" color Art describes, which is what happened very quickly to the white stripes on my Fuji touring bike.

Here's another discussion on the subject.

http://fountainheadauto.blogspot.com/2010/11/why-white-tires.html

Edited May 7, 2013 by sjordan2

[Maindrian Pace]

The tires were also pictured in white in many vintage advertisements of the day in artists' renderings, and properly stored archived publications were not susceptible to the same discolorations as photographs. Fanciful artwork aside, the tires were most likely off-white, yellowish or slightly tan, but mostly white.

-MJS

[Art Anderson]

That's what I was asking... obviously someone knows what the real color of these old tires was... and if they weren't really white, why are all the modern-day reproduction tires pure white? Wouldn't someone have put out a "correct" tire by now?

If there was a perceived market for such, yes.

Art

[Ace-Garageguy]

A minor point...fumed silica is the material used to improve abrasion resistance on tires in the absence of carbon black (it has many industrial applications, including use as a thickener ...Cabosil, Aerosil...for epoxies in the aerospace industry) and it's a very bright white. Surely the repro "white" tires are using the silica additive to prolong their life, and adding a dye to the rubber compound to get closer to natural "rubber" in appearance is just another expense if nobody's bishing about it.

Bottom line stuff, ya know?

[Harry P.]

A minor point...fumed silica is the material used to improve abrasion resistance on tires in the absence of carbon black (it has many industrial applications, including use as a thickener ...Cabosil, Aerosil...for epoxies in the aerospace industry) and it's a very bright white. Surely the repro "white" tires are using the silica additive to prolong their life, and adding a dye to the rubber compound to get closer to natural "rubber" in appearance is just another expense if nobody's bishing about it.

Bottom line stuff, ya know?

Makes perfect sense to me.

[Modelbuilder Mark]

That's what I was asking... obviously someone knows what the real color of these old tires was... and if they weren't really white, why are all the modern-day reproduction tires pure white? Wouldn't someone have put out a "correct" tire by now?

It may be the same reason that Mopar guys that "restore" their cars actually make them better than the factory did. Straighter panel joints, more even gaps when hanging doors etc. Less of a replica, and more of a "what I think it should/could have been"

Could also be the old adage where people were wrong for so long, that "the myth became the perceived truth".

[Harry P.]

Could also be the old adage where people were wrong for so long, that "the myth became the perceived truth".

Good point.

[Longbox55]

If you go to antique or classic car shows, stop and look at some of the restored trucks, for example: Older trucks had a lot of exposed wood in them, which was painted when they were originally built, oak being the primary wood for bed floors, stake fences and such. But, one can see at shows, and in most pictures of "restored" old trucks not only clear finished oak, but walnut, mahogany and the like. On a pickup bed floor? More highly finished than a concert grand piano? Not hardly--but people do it, because they think it looks properly restored.

I'll agree with you there, Art. For the record, I do have clear varnished oak with stainless skid strips in the bed floor of my '55 Chevy Stepside. However, I did it because I like how it looks, not because it's "correct", which it isn't. The correct floor for a Chevy/GMC of the era would be white pine with a flat black finish.

[Art Anderson]

Maybe Corky doesn't have people knocking down his door wondering why he doesn't offer gum latex tires. Maybe restorers actually LIKE the white tires. Maybe tires made of modern compounds in the 'correct' color wouldn't look right anyway. Maybe the best bet would be to ask Corky cause I can pretty much bet he's not reading this thread.

I believe Coker Tire Company did make a run of "buff-colored" tires in the high-pressure, clincher-rim design several years ago.

Art