3D printing now offered from a mainstream model company...

[sjordan2]

Forgive me if this sounds like I'm a little slow, with this new 3D scanning etc, but it's all well & good to have all this in the foreseeable future, ( regarding model making ), but isn't there a cost involved in actual material/s that the scanner would need to "actually" print/make the model, such as some form of plastic, like modern printers need paper/ink etc ?? How can any of these 3D scanners make anything without the necessary "materials"? Whether its plastic, human tissue, rubber, steel etc.... Sorry for the dumb question, but I'm not up to scratch with all this star-trekish technology.... Would someone in the know be able to explain it??

Cheers

Just Google 3D printing.

[Brett Barrow]

Speaking for the entire hobby again I see

And I have to disagree with that entire statement, I buy model kits to, now hold to something, to build,I know, what a concept right?, not put away somewhere to collect dust, I don't care about the box, I care about whats inside the box, sure its nice to look at the box art, I will give you that, but I want to look at what I built, and to feel that accomplishment that I get when I finish a build

Now please don't get me wrong, I really do enjoy taking the shrink wrap off, and opening it up and looking through it, but after that, its time to put all those parts together and build, then, box goes away.

I'm not speaking for the entire hobby, just speaking from 12 years (and counting) of experience doing it day in and day out for a living. I think I might have learned a thing or two over that time. I'm careful to use phrases like "Most folks", instead of "every single modeler on the planet, especially Jonathan Stephens of Phoenix, Arizona"...

[martinfan5]

Forgive me if this sounds like I'm a little slow, with this new 3D scanning etc, but it's all well & good to have all this in the foreseeable future, ( regarding model making ), but isn't there a cost involved in actual material/s that the scanner would need to "actually" print/make the model, such as some form of plastic, like modern printers need paper/ink etc ?? How can any of these 3D scanners make anything without the necessary "materials"? Whether its plastic, human tissue, rubber, steel etc.... Sorry for the dumb question, but I'm not up to scratch with all this star-trekish technology.... Would someone in the know be able to explain it??

Cheers

Yes, you will need to buy the raw plastic.

[Brett Barrow]

Forgive me if this sounds like I'm a little slow, with this new 3D scanning etc, but it's all well & good to have all this in the foreseeable future, ( regarding model making ), but isn't there a cost involved in actual material/s that the scanner would need to "actually" print/make the model, such as some form of plastic, like modern printers need paper/ink etc ?? How can any of these 3D scanners make anything without the necessary "materials"? Whether its plastic, human tissue, rubber, steel etc.... Sorry for the dumb question, but I'm not up to scratch with all this star-trekish technology.... Would someone in the know be able to explain it??

Cheers

http://youtu.be/X5AZzOw7FwA

[Harry P.]

Brett, I think you're off base.

Models are all about the "sizzle" and not the steak? Don't know if I agree with that. I don't know if "most" people buy models so they can add to their stash. I know that I buy a model because I want to build it, not store it. I couldn't care less about things like box art... In fact as far as I remember, I have never bought a model kit based on nothing more than the box art. I would be just as happy getting the parts in a cellophane bag. And I know I'm not the only guy who thinks that way.

And as far as people holding on to the old technology (injection-molded kits)... of course they will! Just like I (and millions of others) still have all my old vinyl LPs. I don't expect anyone with hundreds of unbuilt plastic model kits sitting on shelves to throw them all out... but I do believe that they will buy kits in downloadable form if that's the only way they are sold. Are you saying that an old-school die-hard plastic kit builder is going to give up buying new kits because they're only available as digital downloads? I doubt it. Digital kits are the future, I have no doubt. The technology is just too inviting and too convenient for the kit makers to ignore. They will all be jumping on the digital bandwagon... the only question is how soon. My guess is within our lifetimes, for sure. Probably sooner than later.

[Brett Barrow]

Brett, I think you're off base.

Models are all about the "sizzle" and not the steak? Don't know if I agree with that. I don't know if "most" people buy models so they can add to their stash. I know that I buy a model because I want to build it, not store it. I couldn't care less about things like box art... In fact as far as I remember, I have never bought a model kit based on nothing more than the box art. I would be just as happy getting the parts in a cellophane bag. And I know I'm not the only guy who thinks that way.

And as far as people holding on to the old technology (injection-molded kits)... of course they will! Just like I (and millions of others) still have all my old vinyl LPs. I don't expect anyone with hundreds of unbuilt plastic model kits sitting on shelves to throw them all out... but I do believe that they will buy kits in downloadable form if that's the only way they are sold. Are you saying that an old-school die-hard plastic kit builder is going to give up buying new kits because they're only available as digital downloads? I doubt it. Digital kits are the future, I have no doubt. The technology is just too inviting and too convenient for the kit makers to ignore. They will all be jumping on the digital bandwagon... the only question is how soon. My guess is within our lifetimes, for sure. Probably sooner than later.

We'll just have to agree to disagree then. But, as I said above, I've been selling these things for the past 12 years, in brick-and-mortar shops, at wholesale, and now (for the last few weeks) for a large hobby e-tailer. I continue to learn something new everyday about the psyche of the average hobby consumer. I will tell you that this forum and its members do not, in any way, shape, or form, resemble the average hobby consumer, so this might not be the best cross-section to present these opinions to. I think there might be some differing opinions out there. But hey, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

[Chuck Kourouklis]

Direct scans of 1:1's are still a lot of work. I know that on the Kirkham Cobra Daytonas that were 3D scanned to make 1:1 replicas, that process took 17 hours of actual scanning, then another 80 hours of computer work just to get the point cloud down to a manageable level that could be used to make cross-sections for further manipulation, and that was just for the body panels...

I've personally been involved in a buildup of a Kirkham 427 roadster, the first of the Cobras to have been scanned / CNC'd and they're wonderful. Much better Cobras than real Cobras. They're SYMMETRICAL !!!

The 97 hours you speak of is only about 2.5 weeks of work for one skilled man. Pretty cheap for getting the body shape RIGHT the first time.

I would be dee-lighted if Revell confined the direct scans to the 1:1 body and did everything else the way they've been doing.

I may be mistaken about this, but isn't the notion that a model can be mathematically right and still look wrong based on the old paradigm of taking myriad discreet linear measurements of a 3D subject? The Monogram 1/24 '69 Camaro is supposedly "right" by that standard (much as a sugar cube could be about a 1/24 miniature of a basketball in length, width, and height). I'd wager the reason every scanned subject I've seen looks proportionally correct is that the process not only captures linear dimension, but precise surface curvature as well.

[martinfan5]

We'll just have to agree to disagree then. But, as I said above, I've been selling these things for the past 12 years, in brick-and-mortar shops, at wholesale, and now (for the last few weeks) for a large hobby e-tailer. I continue to learn something new everyday about the psyche of the average hobby consumer. I will tell you that this forum and its members do not, in any way, shape, or form, resemble the average hobby consumer, so this might not be the best cross-section to present these opinions to. I think there might be some differing opinions out there. But hey, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

So, that gives you the right to speak for the entire hobby as a whole?, and I don't just don't mean here in the US, but world wide, since we are talking about 3D printing and not company's, the people, and from what I see is from other country's that are in to the hobby, its not even close to what you are trying to say, for starters, I see a lot more building , I don't see them as collectors, now I am not speaking for the that part, just what I see, and I could be wrong, but I able to say that I could be wrong.

3D printing is not going to just the change the hobby for the US, its going to change for the hobby world wide, but I forgot, everybody that builds , err, collect is the same as us in the USA

[Harry P.]

Brett, I know that your opinion is colored by who you are/what you do.

You've been selling traditional plastic kits in the traditional way for years, and anything that challenges that way of doing business is obviously not going to get the open arms treatment from you. I get that. That's why you (and Darin) were the two who most adamantly defended Revell in the Mustang LX thread. I get it... don't bite the hand that feeds you.

But I have no ties whatsoever to the manufacturing or distribution or retail side of the model kit business. I don't have a stash of hundreds of unbuilt kits, I don't live and breathe model kits... I'm just the typical model kit buyer. And I think, no offense, that I have a more unbiased and realistic view of this topic than a guy who is intimately involved, and has a vested interest, in the model kit industry as it exists today.

Agree to disagree? Yes, I can agree with that.

[martinfan5]

Brett, I know that your opinion is colored by who you are/what you do.

You've been selling traditional plastic kits in the traditional way for years, and anything that challenges that way of doing business is obviously not going to get the open arms treatment from you. I get that. That's why you (and Darin) were the two who most adamantly defended Revell in the Mustang LX thread. I get it... don't bite the hand that feeds you.

But I have no ties whatsoever to the manufacturing or distribution or retail side of the model kit business. I don't have a stash of hundreds of unbuilt kits, I don't live and breathe model kits... I'm just the typical model kit buyer. And I think, no offense, that I have a more unbiased and realistic view of this topic than a guy who is intimately involved, and has a vested interest, in the model kit industry as it exists today.

Agree to disagree? Yes, I can agree with that.

Maybe all of us should just agree to disagree, and move on and wait to see just how 3D printing changes the hobby

[Brett Barrow]

Brett, I know that your opinion is colored by who you are/what you do.

You've been selling traditional plastic kits in the traditional way for years, and anything that challenges that way of doing business is obviously not going to get the open arms treatment from you. I get that. That's why you (and Darin) were the two who most adamantly defended Revell in the Mustang LX thread. I get it... don't bite the hand that feeds you.

But I have no ties whatsoever to the manufacturing or distribution or retail side of the model kit business. I don't have a stash of hundreds of unbuilt kits, I don't live and breathe model kits... I'm just the typical model kit buyer. And I think, no offense, that I have a more unbiased and realistic view of this topic than a guy who is intimately involved, and has a vested interest, in the model kit industry as it exists today.

Agree to disagree? Yes, I can agree with that.

"anything that challenges that way of doing business is obviously not going to get the open arms treatment from you" - I started this freakin' thread!!! I'm ready to embrace it, baby, with arms wide open!!!!

Seriously, I gotta get more Cosby GIFs...

And people in the industry tend to defend the industry, not because of a "don't bite the hand that feeds you" mentality, but because we know the industry and the realities of the industry in a way that those outside the industry will never understand.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Brett Barrow

[MAGNUM4342]

I myself WILL definitely miss the thrill of opening and grokking a new kit right off the shelf if it goes that way. I would not however, give up the hobby because all my kits come electronically, from a 3D printer. I think most of this is typical knee-jerk reaction to something that hasn't fully formed itself yet. Remember, a lot of flowers are ugly as sin until they bloom.

[NormL]

Direct scans of 1:1's are still a lot of work. I know that on the Kirkham Cobra Daytonas that were 3D scanned to make 1:1 replicas, that process took 17 hours of actual scanning, then another 80 hours of computer work just to get the point cloud down to a manageable level that could be used to make cross-sections for further manipulation, and that was just for the body panels...

As someone who does this kind of work, I can tell you this is 100% correct. Right now scanning is the easy part. I want to finish my Ariel Atom as a kit even knowing the massive effort it is going to take. I already have taken quite a bit and modeled it too. I will get around to it, but, for right now there are just not enough hours in the day. With the printers that are available to the masses right now, I will guess $150 for the 1/24th scale at Shapeways in FUD. It is a tiny car without all of the big body structure that will make the model more expensive too. Model printing cost are an exponential cost too. Let's us say for example I have a model I have done at 1/24th scale and I want to upscale it to 1/12th, no big deal, if it prints at 1/24th it will print at 1/12th with no re-engineering. That is not where it gets you though, it is the cost. You are making it twice as big in three dimensions, so, 2x2x2 or eight times the material cost. So that little $20 frame at 1/24th is now $160 at 1/12th. You can manipulate the material thickness of one of the dimensions, but, the best you could ever hope for is a cost factor of 4.

[Harry P.]

And people in the industry tend to defend the industry, not because of a "don't bite the hand that feeds you" mentality, but because we know the industry and the realities of the industry in a way that those outside the industry will never understand.

But the industry that you know is going to drastically change.

People in an industry defend that industry because they have a vested interest in keeping the status quo. If kits are no longer injection molded and put into boxes and shipped to warehouses and then to retailers, that directly affects you and your bottom line. It has nothing to do with "knowing" the industry, it's all about the industry changing and doing things in a way that no longer needs people that do what you do. Please. Give me a little credit for seeing reality. I don't want you or anyone else who derives an income from the way the hobby operates now to lose their gig... but the way the model kit industry operates is going to fundamentally change, in my opinion.

I'm sure the blacksmith's union was pretty vehemently against the auto industry. I'm sure that candle makers weren't jumping for joy over the invention of the light bulb. And I'd guess that the steamboat and railroad industry wasn't too pleased with the Wright brothers.

Come on, Brett. You're not talking to a moron here...

[NormL]

I'm sure that candle makers weren't jumping for joy over the invention of the light bulb.

Really, you don't think that they actually liked to see what they were making?

[1930fordpickup]

I am just wondering how long of a timetable are we thinking about.

I have used 3D models in 1996 at work. No we did not print them our customer had them printed for us to paint. The place that printed them was an Injection molding plant.

At my former job in 1991 one of the CNC operators used the Renshaw prob (just as in Bill's video) to trace a tie tack pin and make a belt buckle after he scaled it up. It was not new tech then.

We have not been talking about any new technology . Yes it is getting better .

Just wondering how much longer we will be waiting. I am looking forward to the day.

[Harry P.]

Just wondering how much longer we will be waiting. I am looking forward to the day.

Nobody can say for sure, but given the fact that the technology already exists and is in use, I'd say sooner rather than later.

[1930fordpickup]

I am just tired of waiting Harry . After seeing 3D printing back in 96 I have been waiting, pacing the floor waiting.

[Harry P.]

I am just tired of waiting Harry . After seeing 3D printing back in 96 I have been waiting, pacing the floor waiting.

Don't worry, Andy. It's coming. Just keep building... it'll be here before you know it!

[martinfan5]

I am just tired of waiting Harry . After seeing 3D printing back in 96 I have been waiting, pacing the floor waiting.

I hope you have a very hard floor, it must be worn out by now

[Brett Barrow]

But the industry that you know is going to drastically change.

People in an industry defend that industry because they have a vested interest in keeping the status quo. If kits are no longer injection molded and put into boxes and shipped to warehouses and then to retailers, that directly affects you and your bottom line. It has nothing to do with "knowing" the industry. Please. Give me a little credit for seeing reality.

I'm sure the blacksmith's union was pretty vehemently against the auto industry. I'm sure that candle makers weren't jumping for joy over the invention of the light bulb. And I'd guess that the steamboat industry wasn't too pleased with the Wright brothers.

Come on, Brett. You're not talking to a moron here...

You know how many times I've heard that the industry is going to change just in the short time I've been involved in it? Acrylic paints were going to kill enamel paints. They didn't. Die-casts were going to eliminate kits. They didn't. Snap kits were going to become the norm and eliminate glue kits. They didn't. Super-accurate enthusiast-oriented kits were going to take over. They didn't. Pre-painted kits were going to get rid of unpainted kits. They didn't. Video games were going to kill modeling. They didn't. The internet was going to kill modeling. It didn't (If anything it made it bigger). Losing the big-box stores was going to kill the model industry. It didn't (if anything it made it better).

Look , I deal in reality every day, I have no choice but to deal in reality. I've seen scores of millions, if not hundreds of millions, of John Q. Modeler's dollars worth of reality move through the doors of the businesses I've worked for the past 12 years. I've learned a lot about reality (and John Q. Modeler) over those years. Give me a little bit of credit here, this is what I do for a living. The industry isn't the same as it was in the summer of 2001 when I started in it, and I'm sure it won't be the same in 2021. I'm not all about keeping the status quo or else I wouldn't have just taken a new job in e-tail less than a month ago. Also, how is it that you say the industry is going to totally embrace this new technology and give up its way of doing things, but yet you say that the industry only cares about keeping the status quo? Seriously, you're always the head cheerleader on any of these 3D printing threads, so much so that I'm starting to think you might have a vested interest in MakerBot or some company that is trying to market at-home 3D printers...

Remember, there was a time when lots of folks, including many inside the industry, thought that this was going to be the future of modeling. Revell lost $7 million on this escapade alone, and there were many other money losing ventures along the way...

[Harry P.]

Brett, you deal in the industry as it exists today. That industry is going to change.

And I didn't mean that the industry is interested in keeping the status quo... I meant that you are. Because if the industry changes the way I think it will, your bottom line will be affected negatively. You, Brett, do not have an unbiased opinion. That's what I'm saying. It's in your own self-interest for 3-D model kits to not become reality, because if they do, you are out of a job. I understand that, and if I was in your shoes, I'd feel the same way. But you can't possibly have a fair and unbiased opinion on the subject, seeing as you derive an income from the industry as it exists today.

As for me, I have absolutely no ties in any way to any aspect or facet of the 3-D printing industry. I'm just looking at reality and seeing the train pulling into the station.

[Brett Barrow]

Brett, you deal in the industry as it exists today. That industry is going to change.

And I didn't mean that the industry is interested in keeping the status quo... I meant that you are. Because if the industry changes the way I think it will, your bottom line will be affected negatively. You, Brett, do not have an unbiased opinion. That's what I'm saying. It's in your own self-interest for 3-D model kits to not become reality, because if they do, you are out of a job. I understand that, and if I was in your shoes, I'd feel the same way. But you can't possibly have a fair and unbiased opinion on the subject, seeing as you derive an income from the industry as it exists today.

As for me, I have absolutely no ties in any way to any aspect or facet of the 3-D printing industry. I'm just looking at reality and seeing the train pulling into the station.

i don't derive my income from the industry as it exists today - I derive my income from knowing John Q Modeler and how he chooses to spend his hobby dollars. Revell, AMT, Tamiya, Moebius, etc... don't pay me to sell their products, John Q. Modeler pays me because I have the products he wants to buy. If John Q Modeler wants to buy 3D printers and downloadable models, then I'll be selling 3D printers and downloadable models...

[Harry P.]

i don't derive my income from the industry as it exists today - I derive my income from knowing John Q Modeler and how he chooses to spend his hobby dollars. Revell, AMT, Tamiya, Moebius, etc... don't pay me to sell their products, John Q. Modeler pays me because I have the products he wants to buy. If John Q Modeler wants to buy 3D printers and downloadable models, then I'll be selling 3D printers and downloadable models...

John Q. Modeler can only choose to spend his hobby dollars on plastic kits because that's all that's available! When downloadable 3-D printable kits become the norm, that's where John Q. Modeler will be spending his money.

Don't kid yourself... it's the manufacturers that butter your bread. If the products are sold in the form of downloadable software to be printed on the customer's own 3-D printer at home, that would make what you now do obsolete. So you obviously have a vested interest in the industry staying just the way it is. Which obviously colors your opinion of 3-D printing and its possible emergence as the new way of "manufacturing" kits.

Come on, Brett. I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday. Who do you think you're dealing with here? Maybe you can BS some people, but I'm not one of them.

[sjordan2]

It's not the interests of plastic car modelers that will guide the growth of affordable, small scale 3D printing. That will be minuscule in relation to what's already happening.

The wide world of crafts still seems to be alive and well, though not growing by leaps and bounds, and I think there are enough different kinds of hobbies to keep crafts stores in business and crafts suppliers, too. In fact, 3D printers probably have a much wider application for the combined interests of other hobbies than for model cars. There are certainly many more kinds of plastic model genres. I don't think that anyone's going to print the Titanic on their home printer, though they may want extra deck chairs. Or lifeboats.

Of course there are already a multitude of business applications such as architecture, display companies, start-up ventures, new products, packaging, etc., and there will be more as the technology becomes more available and affordable, and more people become aware of it. They're way ahead of the curve. This subject, after all, is of wide interest in the general media, and is frequently covered and updated.

Edited May 31, 2013 by sjordan2