JunkPile Posted November 23, 2013 Posted November 23, 2013 Wow! Really? Is this still a model car forum?
crazyrichard Posted November 23, 2013 Posted November 23, 2013 now bill , in my 2 previous replyes i was only talking about looks and style , but the subject you adressed > i support you completly ...if you want to build a rod and drive it on the road , make sure its safe and ...and i'm sure there are a lot of dodgy builds out there ... but the purist would ...its like i'm on the biggest members only lowbudget chopper build forum for holland and we also have a lot of belgium guys ..now low budget does not mean it has to be slapped together , we have guys who are wizards in metal and build their own frames . just create one piece brass gastanks for a self build and designed old looking boardtracker with harley engine ..we have a thread there called death traps , its full of pictures and links to build threads and adverts of bikes for sale in holland and ...some are just like wtf how would you even consider driving it ..the fact is some people want like a rod or bad as bike and think they can do it themselfs while they cant ..same thing is when people change vehicles and dont get it trhough tech inspection with new and proper papers ... then you wont be insured when your in a accident ....long story short i agree stuff needs to be safe and has to be up to spec if you want to use it on public roads , its one thing to risk your own life but dont risk anyone else his life ....
zenrat Posted November 23, 2013 Posted November 23, 2013 I'll just leave this right here. Enjoy http://autoculture.org/?page_id=1015 Surely you can move the start date of this to 1982 - the Eastwood & Barakat Sedan? ...I'm sure the builders/owners of these so called "rat rods" could care less what some on-lookers think about their welding. Au contraire. I suspect the builders owners of the pigeon BLAH_BLAH_BLAH_BLAH welded "vehicles" care very much what all onlookers think about the "welding". That's why it's there. It's like a DILLIGAF sticker. If you really don't GAF about what people think you don't need a sticker to announce the fact.
TexMexSu Posted November 23, 2013 Posted November 23, 2013 So is this subject about model rat rods or full size ones? Ok, I understand the safety issues with driving some of the real ones, but are we also 'dissing' a rat rod model/modeler? Being a former model car contest sponser I can say with all truthfullness that I never knocked or berated another modeler due to their creation or lack of apparant modeling skills. Same goes for the full size ones. Sure they are some I like more than others but that is personal preference. At the other end of that rat rod model or real car there is a person. Somebodies son or daughter. Could be one of yours some day. Rather than talking here about them go talk TO them. Get to know them a little. I am sure that many of you have a lot of talent so why not put it to use. Offer to help them. Promote the hobby that we all enjoy. Or take the easy way out. Sit behind a computer screen and continue to not "get it" and continue to bash them. I'll be in the garage. Have fun here.
Ace-Garageguy Posted November 23, 2013 Posted November 23, 2013 So is this subject about model rat rods or full size ones? BOTH Ok, I understand the safety issues with driving some of the real ones. GOOD Being a former model car contest sponser I can say with all truthfullness that I never knocked or berated another modeler due to their creation or lack of apparant modeling skills. Same goes for the full size ones. Sure they are some I like more than others but that is personal preference. SAFE WELDING ISN'T ABOUT PERSONAL PREFERENCE At the other end of that rat rod model or real car there is a person. Somebodies son or daughter. Could be one of yours some day. WHO COULD DIE AS A DIRECT CONSEQUENCE OF POOR WORKMANSHIP Rather than talking here about them go talk TO them. Get to know them a little. I'VE MET A FEW WHO JUST DON'T CARE TO LEARN CORRECT WELDING...IT'S NOT COOL ENOUGH. I am sure that many of you have a lot of talent so why not put it to use. Offer to help them. Promote the hobby that we all enjoy. Or take the easy way out. Sit behind a computer screen and continue to not "get it" and continue to bash them. I'VE BEEN ACTIVELY TRYING TO TEACH CORRECT PRACTICES AND TECHNIQUES FOR MANY YEARS. YOU CAN ONLY TEACH PEOPLE WHO WANT TO LEARN. I'll be in the garage. ME TOO.
Tom Geiger Posted November 23, 2013 Posted November 23, 2013 I think we are over reacting... The really over the top rat rods are nothing more than rolling sculpture. Note that some of them have chops so severe that you couldn't sit up in them to drive. Some of them have been built by big shops. They aren't intended to be somebody's ride, they are just show cars. Not unlike the radical cars from the early 1960s. Some of them didn't even run.. and there was a certain Roth car that the chassis broke upon unloading and was masked with tin foil! So enjoy looking at them or walk on by...
Daddyfink Posted November 23, 2013 Posted November 23, 2013 After being a Tech Official at the local Drag Strip, I did bounce quite a few cars. From Honda Rocket Racers to Rat Rods. Some of these guys will listen and take the advice you give them on what they need to do to be safe. Some, they have this BS bravado about run what you brung! So it is not just about the cars, but also the owners or builders!!! Young guys trying to act like cranky old men, now that is funny! It was like a badge of honor to have a totally unsafe car. Living the desperate life of a pulp magazine! I called them the cartoon kids! I can understand being passionate about something, but there is also common sense. Most of them eventually got it and some threw a fit and huffed off mad. Back to the pits to make a ruckus and drink PBR! And then they would get mad about no Alcohol in the pits!! I don't care what they call these cars anymore, I am just trying to give a bit of background on how it was and where it is now. They are becoming the PT Cruisers of the show car set. There are so many and they begin to loose the uniqueness about them. And some, I will admit, are cool and deserve to be seen, but some, they just do it to do it and make noise! Love them or hate them, they are among us and that's the way it is!
heinz74 Posted November 23, 2013 Posted November 23, 2013 i guess i'll walk by then.. respecting other people's opinion ,giving a 'politically correct' answer and all that.. i just can't seem to understand that style of customizing,,, i do like the barnfind thing...discovering a car that's been left behind for decades..and like a wise man once said it's only original once ,it can be restored a thousand times.. but if i was to find say for instance a '67 Shelby gt500 Mustang or perhaps a '69 Z28 Camaro covered in decades of dust... well i would take pictures ...a lot of them ...for all the 'patina' freaks in the world...heck i wouldn't even drive it on those cracked tires.. moments later i would take it apart for a full rotissery resto...no doubt in my mind no way i would clearcoat the body with the rustspots ,and free the seized engine and brakes and (try to)drive it.."Rat look'.. it would come rolling out of my shop years afterwards better then new .and not looking like something that's gonna fall apart that's the way i see it...and that in my opinion is the only way to keep old cars around ,by giving them new life after restoration not by making them look worse than they could ever be /get.. just my two cents..
Greg Cullinan Posted November 23, 2013 Posted November 23, 2013 It got big quick and I think it's still growing.
shucky Posted November 23, 2013 Posted November 23, 2013 (edited) And that's why your entitled to your own opinion lol. You clearly do not understand why some guys and big shops choose to build them this way. It has nothing to do with incompetence, laziness, or mechanical ignorance. You don't get it and you don't like it. That's okay "Ace." What a boring place this land would be if we all had to follow the "rule book" and do things, build things, and express ourselves within the "guidelines" someone else set forth for us all to follow. And banging on a guitar to some is considered music, just maybe not to you. That's also okay. This is interesting. Apparently YOU think craftsmanship has something to do with "competing" to see whose work is best. Nope. It's highly PERSONAL, something you do for YOURSELF, and it's a much more CHALLENGING method of self-expression than snotting out a string of half-assed "work" and trying to pass it off as something special. A man becomes a craftsman because it matters to himself, the man inside...not a bunch of ignorant bystanders he's trying to impress with how outrageous his poorly conceived and implemented "death machine" is. It takes effort, dedication, hard work and practice to become a good craftsman, and it's a very personal journey to get there. This "making a statement" and taking it to ridiculous extremes where even basic structural elements like welds are unsound, is more accurately a celebration of incompetence, laziness and mechanical and technical ignorance, dressed up and masquerading as self-expression. It's as valid artistically as picking up a guitar and banging on it like a chimp, without ever bothering to learn any chords or fingering, and calling it music. Calling a turd a rose doesn't make it smell any better. Anybody can make a turd, and it doesn't take any talent, skill or effort. But wait...maybe that's the appeal...it's easy. Edited November 23, 2013 by shucky
Ace-Garageguy Posted November 24, 2013 Posted November 24, 2013 (edited) And that's why your entitled to your own opinion lol. You clearly do not understand why some guys and big shops choose to build them this way. It has nothing to do with incompetence, laziness, or mechanical ignorance. You don't get it and you don't like it. That's okay "Ace." What a boring place this land would be if we all had to follow the "rule book" and do things, build things, and express ourselves within the "guidelines" someone else set forth for us all to follow. And banging on a guitar to some is considered music, just maybe not to you. That's also okay. I'm not going to get into the 'having the last word' BS, but from your responses it's pretty apparent that: 1) Either you're reading-impaired OR you just refuse to understand that I'm not condemning the "rat" look...only unsafe and pig-stupid workmanship...little areas like welding, which is a real-world, real-deal thing...and I don't give a rat's ass how many "big shops" choose to do it wrong. 2) IF you have no respect for correct welding procedures and what a safe weld looks like, you probably haven't ever built anything that was fast, or had to stop and handle well. That makes your opinion worthless as far as I'm concerned, because that's a large part of what I've done my entire life...build fast and functional stuff that was out-of-the-box, never done before, including aircraft applications. And the very FIRST thing I learned was how to do the important things right. Spout off about how cool and hip your snot welding is all you want. It's still ######. Edited November 24, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy
Harry P. Posted November 24, 2013 Posted November 24, 2013 Wow. This topic has sure strayed from the original question posed... I said way back when, many pages ago, that a lot of these "rat rods" or whatever you want to call them, are not built with the intention of being safe, sane, practical, or even operational modes of transportation. They are built as sculpture, they are made to look at, they are expressions of the builder's creativity. They were never meant to be daily drivers! To take offense at these cars is silly... they are what they are, and you either like them or you don't, but I don't see where all this anger comes from. If a guy wants to take an eclectic collection of parts and throw them together to create his vision, who are we to say he's "wrong?" Norman Rockwell created photographically realistic paintings, going to great lengths to pose models in exacting ways and taking the time to get every detail correct and to make his image look as much like reality as he could. Jackson Pollock threw paint at a canvas. Both are considered artists, despite the fact that the paintings they created (and how they went about creating them) were about as polar opposite as you can get. A fan of Rockwell might look at a Pollock canvas and say "You call that art? A monkey could do that" A Pollock fan might look at a Rockwell painting and sneer at its "banality" or mock Rockwell's idealized vision of America. But in the end, they are both artists. They just created different art. Know what I mean?
Ace-Garageguy Posted November 24, 2013 Posted November 24, 2013 (edited) If they show up on trailers and are exhibited as static "art", they can be anything the builder wants. STATIC ART doesn't have to be safe or function, and some of them DO look pretty cool. BUT...I HAVE FOLLOWED SOME down the road that were being used as MACHINES , and I've seen others driven to and from shows, THAT WERE ENTIRELY UN-ROADWORTHY, and stupidly, un-nesessarily dangerous. There is a very simple distinction here, and it's not hard to grasp. Edited November 24, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy
JunkPile Posted November 24, 2013 Posted November 24, 2013 I do believe that some of you are over-thinking over the matter at hand. Keywords: toys, plastic, 8 and up, fun, art, individualism, glue sniffin'
Harry P. Posted November 24, 2013 Posted November 24, 2013 If they show up on trailers and are exhibited as static "art", they can be anything the builder wants. STATIC ART doesn't have to be safe or function, and some of them DO look pretty cool. BUT...I HAVE FOLLOWED SOME down the road, and seen others driven to and from shows, THAT WERE ENTIRELY UN-ROADWORTHY, and stupidly, un-nesessarily dangerous. If they were on the road, they obviously were road-worthy, legally... unless the guy was driving it illegally, in which case he is wrong to do so.
Ace-Garageguy Posted November 24, 2013 Posted November 24, 2013 (edited) If they were on the road, they obviously were road-worthy, legally... Harry...the state I currently live in has very strict laws concerning the PROCEDURE that you have to go through to register a car that's made up from bits, including production-vehicles rebuilt from totals. But the actual inspection, which costs $250, is a farce, done by folks who wouldn't know a weld from toothpaste. Just because there's a "legally"...oh well. Why do I even bother. Edited November 24, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy
Craig Irwin Posted November 24, 2013 Posted November 24, 2013 When Rat Rods first started comming around they wern't what they are today. They were bare bones and in flat black or primer, maybe a Mexican blanket on the seat. More of what is called a nostalga rod today. I was sick of the way too smooth slicked up billet sleds that "Street Rods" had become and was glad to see a breath of fresh air. But soon I started seeing junk with no floor boards, no front brakes, farm implement tires, hack welding, raw sharp edges, and in one case a cut brake line hammered flat and folded back on itself! If they trailered this stuff to the shows it would be one thing, but these things are out on the same streets my grandkids are on, and it seems most of the time driven pretty wrecklessly.
Longbox55 Posted November 24, 2013 Posted November 24, 2013 Unfortunately, Harry, that happens far too often. depending on what state your in, all one has to do to get plates is present a clear title and vin. In many cases, vehicles have even been title using a title from a completely different vehicle. In Illinois (Downstate anyway), for example, you don't even require a safety inspection to get a registration and plates. I know I've certainly seen plenty of poorly built cars, not always rat rods, either. Guys with lifted 4x4s, donks, and lowriders can bejust as guilty of poor workmanship and design. I've had the misfortune of having to service a few of them.
Craig Irwin Posted November 24, 2013 Posted November 24, 2013 If they were on the road, they obviously were road-worthy, legally... Here in Indiana there is no inspection law, just buy a plate and go.
crazyrichard Posted November 24, 2013 Posted November 24, 2013 (edited) now and thats the whole point and idea , i love rats but the idea that somebody would take shortcuts and drive a unsafe vehicle on the road .. that just does not go for me .. now i'm here in holland and we (sadly) dont have a lot of cool rods on the roads (actually there are a few really awsome rods and ratrods ) or never see them .. but the fact remains that if somebody chooses to drive a unsafe build vehicle and that doesnt have to be a rat rod , it can be anything from a honda to a motorcycle , any vehicle ... thats just plain stupid .... i am sure there are enough home build hotrods / ratrods or ... that are safe , look awsome but stop and steer good are welded the correct way etc etc .... i also think we did not go beyond the point of the thread and discussion we just found a new chapter / subject within to discus about .. and yes we where talking about real vehicles so no point to get the modelcars in this discussion on those we can do what we want .. even make bad glue seems .. because when it breaks it wont have the risk of driving into a real person or hit a pedestrian ....... i think when you take the time / effort and want to build a vehicle why not take the extra effort and make it safe .. because yes ratrods where esentially hotrods , normal hotrods , made to be driven and the owners just drove it in primer / bad paint and did not care about the shinyness .. but they where real petrolheads / gearheads and good back-yard mechanics who loved to tinker with their cars and make they go faster .. faster by stripping weight and adding some power ... hat evolved into what you see today ... vehicles build to be rough / tough and with proportions that sometimes blow your mind .. i personally love them to death and can really enjoy awsome looking ratrods / hotrods etc etc ... but when it comes to the point where sombody wants to use that vehicle on a public road , and it doesnt matter if its for a few miles a year or weekends only or daily ....you just need to make sure its safe ....safe enough so you are sure the frame doesnt break in half , parts dont fly off , the steering and braking are dependable ..... those are really basic things of the construction .. nothing fancy or ..... so that said i dont see why some think this is a discussion going out of hand whats wrong with a discussion ? just a few people talking about something and giving their opinion .... just one thing > i would pitty the person who would hit my son - wife or anybody around me with a knowingly unsafe build car .. thats all ...jail time would not be a issue for me if they would kill somebody with such a vehicle ... Edited November 24, 2013 by crazyrichard
1930fordpickup Posted November 24, 2013 Posted November 24, 2013 Actually if the owner wants to ship this to me for free... remove the wheels and put on something more fitting. Remove the intake and get that all lower so you can see. Put a decent seat in there, add a decent pickup bed and I'd keep it. One of the cool things about this car in the photo is the anti norm of it . Notice the houses in the background are the same . they all have brick mail box post with the same every other house layout being the same . The other houses have pickups in the drives , this rod does not fit in . The wheels are wrong for this style rod, they are painted and billet and low profile with white walls . The engine is not a common sight in theses also. It has disc brakes up front and store purchased air cleaner stacks . It is still just what this movement is all about . My Style, My Way, My Rules . I like most of it , not all but it is not mine.
Ace-Garageguy Posted November 24, 2013 Posted November 24, 2013 (edited) One of the cool things about this car in the photo is the anti norm of it . Notice the houses in the background are the same . they all have brick mail box post with the same every other house layout being the same . The other houses have pickups in the drives , this rod does not fit in . The wheels are wrong for this style rod, they are painted and billet and low profile with white walls . The engine is not a common sight in theses also. It has disc brakes up front and store purchased air cleaner stacks . It is still just what this movement is all about . My Style, My Way, My Rules . I like most of it , not all but it is not mine. All fine and dandy. And IF IT'S BEING DRIVEN, IT NEEDS TO BE STRUCTURALLY SOUND AND FUNCTIONALLY SAFE. Not wimpy mommy-van airbag-safe, but with reasonable and correct function of steering, suspension, brakes and lighting. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- History repeats itself...especially if you don't bother to know any of it. One of the MAIN reasons the NHRA was founded back in the early post-war hot-rod boom days was to try to foster safe construction and operation of hot-rods, which had a pretty bad name in the press and among the general public. The term "suicide" front end derives from the fact that more than a few of the poorly-welded, poorly-engineered, overhung, transverse straight front-axle spring perches (that got the car down really low for the 'look') broke off, with predictable disastrous, sometimes fatal consequences. It was also popular among the tail-dagger set, the ones who didn't know any better, to use very long shackles to lower the rear of a transverse-sprung car (like a '40-'48 Ford, etc.). It looks cool sitting still, but entirely destroys any hope of maintaining directional stability during cornering. Again, a lot of promising young people met un-necessary deaths because of a trend, fad, getting the 'look'. Knowing how things work and what's safe, when your life, and others, depends on them, is simply part of being a responsible human being. It needs to be an integral part of "self expression" when that expression involves machinery. Edited November 24, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy
Ace-Garageguy Posted November 24, 2013 Posted November 24, 2013 bla, bla, bla Now there's a well thought out adult response. I'm impressed.
Chuck Most Posted November 24, 2013 Posted November 24, 2013 I always think it's cute when people automatically assume all rat rods are 'unsafe'. True, some are. But how many 4x4s have you seen with the classic "Hockey Puck Body Lift", maybe complete with a 2x4 jammed under the radiator core support? Ever seen somebody try to use a u-joint from a ratchet set to connect their steering column to the gear? It happens. Or what about everyday vehicles running around with bald tires, worn tie rod ends about to fall out, gas tanks that leak at the seams, brake lines "repaired" with compression fittings, and any manner of other potential catastrophes just waiting to happen? Even if you add up every 'rat rod' on the road, and assume that every one of them is 'unsafe', they'd be handily outnumbered by poorly maintained everyday cars. Odds are the guy in the clapped-out '97 Maxima will be the guy who kills or injures you in traffic because something on his car failed. I'm actually envious of people who live in states with mandatory vehicle inspections.
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