Tesla confirms "affordable" model coming in 2017

[Tom Geiger]

As far as recharging stations, I believe Tesla may have the right idea, though being able to charge anywhere with an outlet is quite convenient. Perhaps workplaces can find ways to implement charging stations that work like parking meters so you can simply put "x" amount of dollars into a meter and let your car charge while you shop, eat, or go to work. There would be problems to work around though. Just food for thought.

Tesla just open sourced it's technology agreeing to share it with competitors. More car volume means more investment in charging stations that will make the electric vehicle mainstream. You may have seen my drive report on the Tesla here on the board. My cousin bought one and let me drive it. He explained that the GPS system on the car programs in the fuel stops and those partial fills don't take long. He said that on trips from home in PA to Detroit, North Carolina and Maine, he was only inconvenienced long enough to have dinner at a charging station.

The charging stations are going in at a fast pace. Here in PA, they've had them at the King of Prussia mall for at least a year. I saw them at rest stops on the PA Turnpike. A little restaurant we frequent has two spaces. The charging works two ways. Some places don't charge as a way of enticing you to patronize their business. Others work off a Tesla credit card that you swipe at the charging unit. So there already are some of the things you wish. Workplaces are getting pressured to install charging stations. I was a facility manager for a large pharma and we had the requests at multiple facilities. We already had preferred parking spaces for hybrids and car pools.

[91blaze]

Nobody ever said it can. Did you read the story about that British university that I posted?

Yes I read it and find it quite interesting. I see it as a way to keep current gasoline vehicles from becoming useless, but I still don't see it as a viable long-term solution. Perhaps they will find easier ways to synthesize it but this just seems like it uses way more energy to make than it will ever put out. The fact that nothing new has come out makes me think it may have hit a wall in research or the funding was ended.

[Rob Hall]

One funny aside..listening to a tech podcast and they are talking about the upcoming Model 3, and they are referring to non-electric cars as 'engine cars'...as in 'the Model 3 will be targeting fans of popular entry luxury engine cars such as the BMW 3-series, Mercedes C-class, etc...' Strange to hear the term 'engine car'...

[Harry P.]

To differentiate from an electric motor car...

Gas engine... electric motor.

[Rob Hall]

To differentiate from an electric motor car...

Gas engine... electric motor.

Yes..that must be it..does sound strange to the ears, though.

[Harry P.]

Yes..that must be it..does sound strange to the ears, though.

You'll get used to it...

[Rob Hall]

Yeah...a while back on another podcast I heard cars w/ manual transmissions referred to as 'clutch cars'...sounded odd also.

[Harry P.]

Yeah...a while back on another podcast I heard cars w/ manual transmissions referred to as 'clutch cars'...sounded odd also.

Yeah... just look at that clutch car go!

[freakshow12]

I had never laid eyes on a tesla, been in vancouver for the last week and they are everywhere! Seen 6 so far! They start at 79,900 up here. But I also have never seen so many vettes and Porsches either. They are everywhere

[clovis]

In my estimation, the next step will be electric cars with gas powered chargers mounted in the car somewhere. Until there is a vast network of charging stations, I think that 'range anxiety' or 'range fear' will play into the consumer's mind and their driving needs.

Right now, if I won a sweepstakes with a choice of a free Tesla or Chevy Volt, the Volt meets my needs better than the Tesla does. We simply don't have the charging stations in our more rural part of the state. I don't think there is a charging station anywhere in town, and there might not be one in the whole county. If there is, I am unaware of it.

I do see a huge evolution coming. I can foresee a day when grocery and mall parking lots are filled with solar panels that are built where you can pull in under the panels, charge your car for $2, and all the while, your car is sitting in the shade while you shop. I can also envision large wind generators being installed at big box stores to power the charging stations that customers will use while they are shopping inside the store.

Like I've told my friend, who loves to discuss renewable energy, cars and the like, "We ain't seen nothing yet." While engineers at car companies keep studying weight, fuel economy, resistance, drag, etc., personally, IMO, they haven't touched the tip of the ice burg yet.

[Joe Handley]

I have to agree with Clovis, there will be more coming down the pike, so long as there are no well funded roadblocks thrown out to impede them. I'd love to see shopping malls start putting up solar panels and wind turbines, low energy use lighting and construction materials, EV charging stations, maybe rooftop plant life too. You wouldn't even need to build a new mall for it if you have one that might work well as a starting point. There's a dying, 20 some year old mall near me that has massive glass panels in the roof that allows for fantasic amounts of light during the day, has the room to put up panels, turbines, EV charging stations, ect, and could use a massive updating as far as interior appearances goes. The place is darn near empty, so any revitalizing wouldn't interfer with shoppers and this would be the perfect to experiment with since it is dying even though it's in medium to high income, a high traffic flow area that has a number of homes, hotels, a fairly large resort/golf course, car dealerships, and a municiple airport all within a few miles of it.

When it comes to a dominating energy supply, there shouldn't be just one, not after how the last decade plus has been when oil has been the primary power source for the world for the last century. I doubt the internal combustion engine will be going away, but I do feel we should have more hybrids, especially with drivetrains like the Volt/ELR use, more pure electrics like the Leaf and Tesla, plus continued and expanded production of multi fuel capable vehicles like those that can burn gasoline as well as Ethanol, Natural Gas, or all three. For example, all the upcoming Nat Gas Impala should need to be a tri-fuel vehicle is the right injectors, fuel pump, and programming to allow for E85 use along side gasoline in the same fuel system, plus the natural gas. No reason cars like the Volt/ELR can't burn both gas or alcohol plus run on electricity, natural gas might make things overly complicated to try and make it tri-fuel as well as electric since it would need it's own fuel system instead being able to share the single fuel system like gas and E85 can.

If I were to get a Volt or Tesla via sweepstakes, I would probably go Tesla, it works perfectly fine for my driving environment right now, plus I would still have my Flex Fuel Chrysler 200 for long distance hauls incase there is no easy way to charge the Tesla and my old Cherokee for winter use.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Joe Handley

[Bill J]

They really have a long way to go to make an electric car truly practical, despite any hype or wishful thinking. The battery costs are very high, batteries are inherently dangerous and the vehicles are pretty limited in their functionality. That is today they are small sedans/coupes with enough range to commute around the city, to work, for shopping and such. They are not very practical for a road trip and it doesn't matter how many charging stations they erect.

I drive across the US a few times per year at about 1000 miles per day. I normally stop three times for gasoline per 1000 miles. It takes me less than 10 minutes to fuel up and do whatever pit stopping I need per filling. How long does it take to charge up an electric car? If it's over 30 minutes, it is impractical.

I drive a Jeep Wrangler 4-door. I buy a SUV because I occasionally have to haul something, I travel and I go to the hills as often as I can. I drive on snow, dirt, mud and sand as well as pavement and gravel roads. What electric vehicle can I get that will do what my Jeep does? In a way I know that a Jeep is part of a problem and not part of a solution when it comes to efficiency of resources however, what I use a vehicle for cannot be duplicated with an electric or a hybrid, at the present time.

If all you do is run around a town or city then maybe an electric car will work for you but where does the electricity come from? Some form of generation is required to produce the energy, burning coal, diesel, gasoline are some of the ways the electricity is generated. Wind power, solar power and nuclear power are generating a very small percentage of electricity we use. Some areas have hydo plants but they are limited. So the majority of electricity is made using fossil fuels. Where is the benefit in an electric car?

It certainly makes money for the makers but is it a cost effective means of transportation in the total cost of ownership to the consumer? Not now and probably not any time in the near future.

[Joe Handley]

Bill, I hate to tell you this, but any form of energy used for transportation will be dangerous, gasoline, diesel, ethanol, and natural gas all tend to be somewhat explosive and flammable in the right conditions and if something goes wrong with it's containment or transportation through the fuel system, a vehicle can catch fire burn down, plus with Natural Gas, if something happens to the fuel tanks, you now have the possibility of a projectile bursting out of the vehicle.

Now for the distance driven, if it takes 30 minutes to charge 3 times a day, that will give you a chance to get out and work your legs to reduce the chances of blood clots, gives you time to get some food, take a bathroom break, if it's hectic driving (like driving back into the suburbs from a major city....like Chicago, during rush hour traffic), you get a chance to stop and just chill out before rejoining the insanity.........that alone can be worth it!

When it comes to your Jeep, I just don't see the 4dr JK having any more practicality than a H2. Jeep kinda lost their way in the Daimler years between ditching the XJ for the Libertys and Nitro, then putting an IFS stup under the Grand Cherokee before going to another Mercedes 4 wheel independent platform with airbags for the current model, also bringing out the much larger and heavier 4dr JK with a severly overworked minivan motor trying to do a V-8's or turbodiesel's job......kind of amazed that the Pentastar does so well in that thing too, as well as bringing out the Caliber based Compass and Patriot (which are also related to my 200) and calling them "Jeeps". Sadly, the only current Jeep I have any interest in is the Trailhawk model of the new KL Cherokee (which shares it's Alfa-Romeo based platform with the Dart and New 200.) It's much more capable straight off the lot than the Compass, Patriot, and probably even the Liberty without being as ugly. It's also smaller, lighter (even though it's still portly), and more efficent than the Grand or the 4dr JK while having a real roof, unlike the JK.

As far as making an electic Jeep that can go off road, that will come as the tech develops. Just look at R/C trucks like the Axial SCX10 in that way, electric powered off road trail trucks that, when built with waterproof electronics, are capable of going pretty much anywhere you point them. I've got one with a '92 XJ Cherokee body on it has actually been wheeled harder and more often than my 1/1 '98 XJ has yet keeps on keeping on. I'm now working on a Traxxas Telluride as a 4 wheel independent trail rig to go with my SCX10, that will be getting grippier tires, narrower offset wheels (stockers sit too far out, getting in the way and looking kinda goofy too), higher turn brushed motor, shorter gearing (there are ring and pinions available that give a healthy improvement in final drive), as well as at least putting heavier oil in the diffs to try and create an aggressive limited slip until I can find a decent spool (the SCX10 diffs are locked from the factory).

When it comes to power generation, as a nation, we need to start pushing for more solar, wind, hydroelectric, and even nuke power. Like I said before, no more of this "all our eggs in one basket" nonsense of the last 100+ years when it comes to energy, no penalizing people for trying to do so (there have been attempts to write laws punishing homeowners for adding solar panels, although I do believe that hybrids and electrics need to cost more to register at the state level). Pollution wise, the benifits are that when running on electricity, the per vehicle pollution is often lower and being produced in less densly populated areas, reducing the pollution in urban and suburban centers. Start adding in solar and wind generated electricity, thst reduced that pollution even moreso.

Things will become more cost efficent, eventually. Remember, gas, oil, and coal have had a 100 year or more head start and have been chosen as "winners" more than once, the rest need to have a chance to be developed and there needs to be fewer hurdles put in their way from opposing market forces for that to happen.

[Tom Geiger]

In my estimation, the next step will be electric cars with gas powered chargers mounted in the car somewhere. Until there is a vast network of charging stations, I think that 'range anxiety' or 'range fear' will play into the consumer's mind and their driving needs.

That's why Tesla just open sourced it's patents on their charger / battery technology. They have been installing chargers at a mad clip. I've seen them at the local shopping mall, rest stops on the PA Turnpike and there's even two outside a small local restaurant.

My cousin has owned a Tesla 3 months and has put 9000 miles on it so far. Not locally, but driving from PA to Maine, South Carolina and as far west as Detroit. The GPS built into the car plans out your course to accommodate when and where you will need to charge. He said he's never had a problem getting a charge, and it's never been less convenient than while they were eating a meal on their trip.

Just like we couldn't have imagined the Internet, smart phones and the like 20 years ago, we have no idea of what technology the future holds!

[Joe Handley]

I need a like button for Tom's post.

[Harry P.]

Me too.

Electric car batteries, driving range, charging times, accessibility of charging stations... that will all continue to improve in leaps and bounds. I think that within most of our lifetimes, electric cars will no longer be considered "odd" or "impractical"... I think electric cars will be quite common.

As far as the comment about electricity needing to be generated... true enough, electricity doesn't fall out of the sky by magic. But electricity can be generated by a wide variety of means... fossil fuels, hydro, solar, wind, nuclear.... while gasoline can only come from one source: oil. In the long run, producing electricity makes a lot more sense than producing gasoline.

[clovis]

I think that a total electric car is the wave of the future.

I wonder what year it will be when hybrid (gasoline and electric) cars will surpass the sales of total gasoline powered cars?

When will sales of total electric cars surpass the sales of hybrid and/or gasoline cars?

[Tom Geiger]

As far as the comment about electricity needing to be generated... true enough, electricity doesn't fall out of the sky by magic.

PJM Interconnection is the company that controls the power grid on the right half of the USA and Canada. I was invited to a business meeting at their Norristown, PA facility. In the lobby of their conference center was a Mini Cooper that was part of their research. Total electric car. In their presentation they shared their vision of the near future. They fully expect to fuel electric vehicles via air waves. And they see the millions of cars that will be out there as part of the power grid. They see these cars as power storage devices to the grid, that can be accessed at times of need. They expect to be connected to every vehicle, and they will know your usage patterns, and when and how much power you will be needing. So if there is a power emergency on the grid, they can tap into your car to help fill in that void. And once it's passed, they'll top off your tank once again. But knowing your usage, they will never leave you empty when you are leaving work. And they predict the ability to be charging vehicle batteries on the fly, as you are driving.

The future will be very, very cool and way beyond your wildest imagination!

[clovis]

You are right, Tom, on several counts.

I think that many of the electric power companies are looking and dreaming about the possibilities and "what ifs" when it comes to powering cars in the future.

.

I think, that if the truth were known, the power companies would like to use the electric cars as storage units to regulate the need for electricity. This regulation is to help flatten the line between peak demand times and when demand is extremely low.

During peak times, like during the summer, if they could pull power from your car, it might reduce their need for having to buy power on the open market, which is very expensive for the utilities. They might be paying 80 cents for electricity that they are selling back to us at 22 cents. (The prices that utilities can charge the consumer is tightly regulated.) So, if they could...we are dreaming with this idea...find enough cars during those peak times to "borrow" electricity from to offset their needs at full peak, it would save the power company tremendous amounts of money.

The next five years could be interesting with the loss and scaling back of coal fired generation. The utilities cannot build enough natural gas fired plants, and what are called "peaker plants", and there is concern that there will not be enough generation and production to go around after the coal fired plants are shuttered. Some insiders say that there isn't going to be enough electricity to go around, and prices will soar.

Since I am great at going off on tangents, as I have already done: High electric rates could have a staggering affect on the cost of operating EVs, and therefore, the sales of new EV makes and models.

Edited August 10, 2014 by clovis