Need Model T info

[Harry P.]

Maybe our resident Model T expert Art Anderson will see this. Or if anyone else knows the answer, please chime in.

I just bought this kit. As you can see, it's labeled as a 1912 Model T:

Now for the questions. According to my research, Model T's through the 1914 model year had a flat firewall with no cowl. The flat firewall butted right up against the rear edges of the hood, with the windshield on top of the firewall.

For model year 1915-16 only, the firewall and windshield were moved back, and the car now had a cowl with a small flat area at the rear of the hood (as seen in the model on the box top). After 1916, the cowl was redesigned to flow smoothly from the rear of the hood, and that small flat area disappeared. That would make this model not a 1912 T, but a 1915 or 16, correct?

Question Two: I found only ONE photo of a 1915-16 T with the straight rear fenders. All other photos I found had the normal curved rear fenders that wrapped around the rear wheels. Are these fenders accurate? Were they an option? Or are they just wrong?

Question Three: Is this a Model T "Commercial Coupe?" Is that rear seat known as a "mother-in-law seat?" Was that a specific Model T model, or an option, or what?

[Art Anderson]

Harry,

Ford, as with most every other automaker back then, didn't do specific model years, nor did they update everything as a package. Rather, as newly designed parts, bodies, came about, they are introduced piecemeal, as the earlier parts ran out on the assembly lines. Pretty much the same as the old VW advertisements stated "Most any part from the new (VW or Model T) will fit every one ever made". In other words, "running changes". The only accurate way to date a Model T to a specific year is by engine and frame number (no VIN until January 1956!), and that of course, would depend on both the frame and the engine being original to the particular T being dated.

Art

[Craig Irwin]

That cowl looks wrong for any T I know of, should be open topped with the lower windshield slanted to it.

[Harry P.]

I know the cowl shape is wrong. But the small flat part that extends past the hood was a 1915-16 only design, right? Prior to 1915 there was no cowl at all, just a flat firewall. After 1916, the cowl blended smoothly into the hood... so this style (while incorrectly shaped on the model) must be a 1915-16 T. At least that's what I get from the research I've done.

[Harry P.]

What I'm saying is, through 1914 the firewall was flat, and there was no cowl at all:

That changed in 1915, when this design appeared:

So my question is, the kit can't possibly be a 1912 T. Right?

[Art Anderson]

I know the cowl shape is wrong. But the small flat part that extends past the hood was a 1915-16 only design, right? Prior to 1915 there was no cowl at all, just a flat firewall. After 1916, the cowl blended smoothly into the hood... so this style (while incorrectly shaped on the model) must be a 1915-16 T. At least that's what I get from the research I've done.

Well, an interesting note on the box art model for your kit: Note that on the box top, the T in question is Right Hand Drive--which Ford never produced in the US, certainly in the years 1908-27 when the company's only product was the Model T. However, before Ford Motor Company established Model T production lines literally world-wide, they did produce export models, which likely included Japan. Note also that the body has doors, something which Model T lacked 1908-11. That leads me to believe that this kit (which was produced originally in Japan by Bandai I believe?) is modeled after a T at least bodied in Japan, for the Japanese domestic market. Surely you are aware (going to a bit later year) that Ford built open bodies ater 1912, in the US (roadsters and touring cars) with just one driver's seat door, that being on the right hand side, with a fake pressed "bead" in the left side sheet metal to make it appear to have a driver's side front door. However, possibly due to either Canadian regulations or perhaps British Empire laws, Model T roadsters and touring cars 1913-25 all had a functional driver's side front door. That's just an example of how T's did vary from country to country. It is also quite possible that the "lunch-counter" or flat fenders remained in production (assembly operations) in other countries until the supply ran out.

In short, that does not look like any domestic (US) Model T Ford body I've ever seen.

Art

[Art Anderson]

Here's a British Model T Touring car that has a very similar cowl to what your kit has, Harry: http://www.modeltbook.co.uk/images/header.jpg However, the fenders appear to be from a much later Model T.

Art

[Art Anderson]

Your Model T kit appears also to have been released by Revell at some point in the fairly recent past. The pics I found of it clearly show that it is RHD, which says to me that your's has a British heritage in it's prototype (1:1)

Art

[Art Anderson]

Maybe our resident Model T expert Art Anderson will see this. Or if anyone else knows the answer, please chime in.

I just bought this kit. As you can see, it's labeled as a 1912 Model T:

Now for the questions. According to my research, Model T's through the 1914 model year had a flat firewall with no cowl. The flat firewall butted right up against the rear edges of the hood, with the windshield on top of the firewall.

For model year 1915-16 only, the firewall and windshield were moved back, and the car now had a cowl with a small flat area at the rear of the hood (as seen in the model on the box top). After 1916, the cowl was redesigned to flow smoothly from the rear of the hood, and that small flat area disappeared. That would make this model not a 1912 T, but a 1915 or 16, correct?

Question Two: I found only ONE photo of a 1915-16 T with the straight rear fenders. All other photos I found had the normal curved rear fenders that wrapped around the rear wheels. Are these fenders accurate? Were they an option? Or are they just wrong?

Question Three: Is this a Model T "Commercial Coupe?" Is that rear seat known as a "mother-in-law seat?" Was that a specific Model T model, or an option, or what?

If that is truly an English Model T Ford, that third seat would have been termed a "Dicky Seat", A/K/A in the US the "Mother-in-Law Seat".

Art

[Harry P.]

Wow... this gets more confusing as we go on!

Art... I never noticed the fact that the model is RHD! Must be some sort of export model. I'll have to do some more digging...

[Ace-Garageguy]

... I never noticed the fact that the model is RHD! Must be some sort of export model...

The Model T was built in Manchester, England, from 1911, I believe, using local suppliers for body components. I assume those cars would be RHD.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy

[Art Anderson]

The Model T was built in Manchester, England, from 1911, I believe, using local suppliers for body components. I assume those cars would be RHD.

Ford also produced Model T's in Canada, where many T's were built for export to British Empire colonies, so they were also RHD

[dublin boy]

The cars built in Cork, Ireland would have been RHD too, but I don't think they were made before 1917.

I have a book on the Cork plant, but I can't find. Typical.. LOL

Edited November 23, 2014 by dublin boy

[sjordan2]

I also couldn't find the whole package in one original car. However, this one has similar fenders and "Mother-in-Law" seat....

http://www.bowdensautobody.com/1911-Ford.html

About 1/3 of the way down the following page on the right, there's a 1909 Runabout with a similar cowl and RHD, and below it on the left is one with the other stuff...

http://oldcarandtruckpictures.com/ModelTFord/

One thing I've found about 1/16 Academy-Minicraft kits and the other relabelings is that most of them were made in Japan or Korea, and some of them like the 1/16 Rolls Phantom III can be found it collections and museums in Asia -- it's currently in the Toyota Museum in Nagoya, and I suspect others are there, too. Meaning that it's not illogical to think that this Model T was imported for the RHD Asian market.

Edited November 23, 2014 by sjordan2

[dublin boy]

I'd imagine it's a kit of a Japanese version of the car, I can't find pics of Irish or UK ones that look like that.

[misterNNL]

Isn't it simply amazing what info can be found on these forums ?The short answer would be YES !!