The Best Car Ever Tested?

[Hollywood Jim]

This is strange. "Consumer Reports" sounds like a publication that is supposed to help us consumers make decisions. Decisions based on price and value. The price and practicality of the car are way out in left field. They should change the name of the magazine to "Nader Reports".

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[Scott Colmer]

My wife and I saw one and wanted it. She researched all the e-cars out there and the Tesla is the best, but the price is too high for us as it sits. And we knew we wouid need to keep the gas burner truck for long hauls. But for most daily needs, it would be a great option.

Here is the plan:

Large initial investment up front

Electtric car

Solar panels

Equals

Two less consumer gouges to tolerate - Oil and electricty.

Good for the planet too

Now to figure out how to get the initial investment.

Scott

[Harry P.]

This is strange. "Consumer Reports" sounds like a publication that is supposed to help us consumers make decisions. Decisions based on price and value.

No, not a decision based on price and value. Based on overall performance. You can't "test" price. The best you can do is compare similar cars that sell for similar prices. For example, the Tesla vs. a comparably priced BMW or Audi or Lexus. You can't compare a Toyota Corolla and a Lexus and say that because the Corolla is cheaper, it's a "better" car or a "better" value. If that were the case all the Kias and Hyundais would be top-rated and all the Mercedes and Audis and BMWs would be rated poorly.

A very expensive car can be a good value. A cheap car can be a bad value.

[Harry P.]

Here's a related question I've wondered about... maybe one of you knows the answer.

Does an electric car's range change much over time? I mean, let's say the car has a range of 200 miles when new. Do the batteries "age" somehow, so that let's say in 3-4 years the range is down to 150 miles? Or maybe the range actually increases over time as everything gets "broken in?" Or is the range something that stays pretty constant over time (assuming a consistant driving style)?

[W-Machine]

Harry, battery packs and their ability to retain a charge degrade over time, and currently are hideously expensive to replace. Existing battery technology has not changed a whole lot in 100 years, though some promising (albeit costly) alternatives are in the works. A long-term test of the Tesla is what I personally would wait for before purchasing any all-electric car. While the Tesla is well-engineered and a good performer, its high price, short range, and lack of any real-world utility (for what I need a vehicle for, anyway) likely won't put one in my driveway anytime soon. When a half-ton pickup truck with a 350 mile range that can charge in ten minutes exists, I might buy one. I've got no axe to grind with Consumer Reports or all-electric cars.

[sjordan2]

Here's a related question I've wondered about... maybe one of you knows the answer.

Does an electric car's range change much over time? I mean, let's say the car has a range of 200 miles when new. Do the batteries "age" somehow, so that let's say in 3-4 years the range is down to 150 miles? Or maybe the range actually increases over time as everything gets "broken in?" Or is the range something that stays pretty constant over time (assuming a consistant driving style)?

More importantly, how available will parts and the proper replacement batteries be down the road? I shudder to think about finding parts for today's computerized cars in 10-15 years (by 2005, it was impossible to get important parts for my 1993 C4 Corvette from GM, and I had to resort to salvage shops and very limited offerings from aftermarket companies like Eckler). Let's see someone try to restore a vintage Enzo Ferrari in 2035.

Edited May 9, 2013 by sjordan2

[Ace-Garageguy]

Here's a related question I've wondered about... maybe one of you knows the answer.

Does an electric car's range change much over time? I mean, let's say the car has a range of 200 miles when new. Do the batteries "age" somehow, so that let's say in 3-4 years the range is down to 150 miles? Or maybe the range actually increases over time as everything gets "broken in?" Or is the range something that stays pretty constant over time (assuming a consistant driving style)?

The recharge-performance of battery systems does indeed degrade over time. Anybody have a portable phone or laptop that went shorter and shorter intervals between needing to be charged, then finally wouldn't hold a charge at all and needed a new rechargeable battery to function correctly? And recall the battery "memory" that hastened the demise of some NiCad batteries if they weren't fully DIS-charged before charging ?? Even the old standby lead / acid car batteries lose the ability to accept and hold a charge with age. Same thing. When it happens in an electric vehicle, performance degrades, as well as mileage between charge cycles.

The thrust of much or the recent battery R&D has been to develop battery designs and compositions that resist this tendency. Without knowing the specific battery technology used in any vehicle, there's no safe generalization that always holds true. It's complicated and depends somewhat on several factors, like the accuracy of the re-charge technology and the environment the batteries are subjected to.

With current state-of-the-art bearings, lubricants and other things that could possibly be associated with "breaking in", I rather doubt there's a measurable difference in the amount of energy necessary to propel this vehicle in its as-new condition and in a well-used state.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy

[IMSANUT]

Consumer reports, by and large, has to be taken with a grain of salt. In years past, the chief editor for the publication said, and I quote, "people do not read our publication for information, but rather entertainment." Having been involved in the retail of audio and video equipment for close to a decade and a half beginning in the late 70's, I can say with some measure of fact that many of their "reviews" of hi-fi equipment bordered on ridiculous, and bore little reality in how a product actually sounded, let alone how reliable, or more oft not, unreliable it was. I have 0% faith in anything they write.

[Rob Hall]

Speaking of battery life, gas-electric hybrids have been around a long time now, I do wonder how battery life is with them...I've never heard of anyone replacing the battery on a Prius, for example. I have friends that have put over 200k on their older Prii and are still on the original battery pack...

[Harry P.]

Ok... here's something else I've wondered. This obviously isn't possible, I guess, because it's not being done AFAIK.

Remember those generator-powered bike lights we had as kids? When the little wheel on the generator was in contact with the tire, and the bike was moving, your light lit up. The faster you pedaled, the brighter the light. You were getting "free" electricity.

So why can't an electric car be set up with a dual battery pack? One pack powers the car, and as long as the car is moving, an onboard generator or whatever charges up the other pack. A dashboard indicator could show charge levels, and when pack A got low, you would switch over to pack B while pack A recharged, etc.

I know this sounds logical (to me, at least), but apparently I'm missing some obvious reason why a system like this couldn't work to keep an electric car constantly charged?

[Ace-Garageguy]

Existing battery technology has not changed a whole lot in 100 years, though some promising (albeit costly) alternatives are in the works.

Though I agree with the rest of your statement, this simply isn't true. 100years ago, lead-acid was king. Today's battery technology is MUCH better, and all you have to do to see proof is look at the tiny RC model helicopters flying, cheaply. The technology is fully scalable and is making fully-electric 1:1 aircraft feasible. It's also the battery technology in the majority of current EVs.

The energy-density-to-weight ratio is the important advance here,and it's, frankly, huge.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

Ok... here's something else I've wondered. This obviously isn't possible, I guess, because it's not being done AFAIK.

Remember those generator-powered bike lights we had as kids? When the little wheel on the generator was in contact with the tire, and the bike was moving, your light lit up. The faster you pedaled, the brighter the light. You were getting "free" electricity.

There's no energy free-lunch. It took power from the food you ate to power your leg muscles to make the bike go to drive the generator for the lights, and though you couldn't feel it, it took a LITTLE more effort on your part to pedal with the lights on.

Trying to recover energy while moving down the road is asking for a perpetual-motion scenario, and physics don't allow for a zero-sum game.

Energy RECOVERY however, as in "regenerative-braking", where kinetic energy lost as heat in conventional braking systems is converted back to electricity by generators on the wheels, is already in place in some vehicles.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy

[Harry P.]

Yeah, I guess what I described does equal perpetual motion, which can't be done. But it sure sounded good in theory!

[Ace-Garageguy]

So why can't an electric car be set up with a dual battery pack? One pack powers the car, and as long as the car is moving, an onboard generator or whatever charges up the other pack. A dashboard indicator could show charge levels, and when pack A got low, you would switch over to pack B while pack A recharged, etc.

I know this sounds logical (to me, at least), but apparently I'm missing some obvious reason why a system like this couldn't work to keep an electric car constantly charged?

This is basically the concept employed in some "hybrid" vehicles, but using only one battery pack that's constantly depleted during acceleration and recharged by a small onboard auxiliary-engine powered generator, when less energy is required of the TOTAL system to maintain cruising speed...the resulting excess is pumped back into the batteries and stored for the next burst of acceleration.

That was the plan with this Jag...it was to have used micro-turbines to drive the onboard generators, and battery packs...

Edited May 10, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

More importantly, how available will parts and the proper replacement batteries be down the road? I shudder to think about finding parts for today's computerized cars in 10-15 years (by 2005, it was impossible to get important parts for my 1993 C4 Corvette from GM, and I had to resort to salvage shops and very limited offerings from aftermarket companies like Eckler). Let's see someone try to restore a vintage Enzo Ferrari in 2035.

Absolutely 100% correct.

And Scott Colmer's mention of using solar panels to recharge these things is absolutely on target too, for the most part. One drawback is the fact that the sun isn't shining on the solar panels at night, when most recharging is going to be done. Rational infrastructure changes, like building solar PV arrays on parking decks to accommodate daytime plug-in recharging will have to accompany significant widespread EV implementation.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy

[Harry P.]

Ok, the "alternate battery packs" idea can't keep the car going forever, that defies the laws of physics, I guess... but couldn't that system significantly extend an electric car's range? Using two packs, one recharging while the other is powering the car, seems to make sense vs. just one pack that's constantly being drained while driving. Maybe it's a function of battery pack power/range vs. weight and or physical space to fit both packs, or some other technical reason I'm not allowing for.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Maybe you missed post #39. A single battery pack is perfectly adequate, as the outflow of energy FROM the batteries to accelerate and maintain speed is computer-juggled and balanced with whatever energy can be generated by onboard means and put BACK IN the batteries.

The first iteration of the Jag was to have used battery packs to accelerate, with small turbines powering generators to augment the vehicles acceleration AS WELL AS to recharge the batteries at a rate HIGHER than they were being dis-charged during steady state cruise. As the car went down the road at a constant speed, the battery pack was recharged faster than energy was taken out to maintain cruise.

And yes, packaging and weight are VERY important considerations for any EV or hybrid. The Jag CX-75 was probably the most ambitious and highly advanced hybrid yet attempted, was blisteringly fast, and was said to be capable of impressive cruising range burning bio-fuels in its turbine-generators.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy

[Harry P.]

I'm not talking hybrid, I mean a pure electric. Using dual battery packs, one to power the car, the other being recharged while the car is in motion, then switching from discharged pack over to fully charged pack, etc., to extend the car's range over a single-pack design. I realize that this switching between packs can't keep the car charged and running forever... but it seems a system like that could take what would be a 200 mile range for a single-pack car and maybe make that range 300-400 miles using dual packs.

Again, assuming that the 2-pack system was physically feasible as far as weight, size, etc. Maybe that's the problem... fitting two packs would mean that each would be too small to give much range, so a single-pack design would give just as much range? A lot of variables to consider, for sure.

Oh well... I'm just thinking out loud. But it's an interesting topic. At least I think so!

[Ace-Garageguy]

Again, perpetual motion. What would recharge the batteries in the second pack while running down the road? Generators on the wheels would ABSORB energy being used to propel the vehicle and discharge the primary battery pack just that much faster. No free lunch.

Maybe I'm missing something, but SOMETHING would have to supply the energy to recharge the second pack, and taking it from the wheels of the vehicle, or putting little windmill generators all over it, or ANYTHING similar would only DECREASE the range on the primary pack. With all the energy-conversion losses, there would be a net loss in the overall system performance.

About the only FREE recharging of batteries there can be obtained is with PV cells on the body of the vehicle.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy

[sjordan2]

I suspect most manufacturers are also pioneering electric technology, such as Mercedes (in cooperation with Tesla) for both minicars and supercars (4-pack).

http://money.cnn.com/2013/03/27/autos/mercedes-tesla-b-class-electric/index.html

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/153697-mercedes-benz-sls-amg-electric-drive-a-740-hp-super-sports-car-with-one-electric-motor-per-wheel

Edited May 9, 2013 by sjordan2

[Harry P.]

Maybe I'm missing something, but SOMETHING would have to supply the energy to recharge the second pack, and taking it from the wheels of the vehicle, or putting little windmill generators all over it, or ANYTHING similar would only DECREASE the range on the primary pack. With all the energy-conversion losses, there would be a net loss in the overall system performance.

I was thinking two identical packs, one that would be powering the car while the other was being recharged by onboard generators operating off the rotating wheels somehow. Then switching to the freshly charged pack when the first pack got low, and that pack would recharge... always just switching from one pack to the other, one powering the car while the other was being recharged. But I think you may have hit on it... there would be a loss of energy throughout the process due to friction, heat, etc. But it still seems to me that this system of switching from one pack to the other would result in a longer range than could be gotten with a single pack design.

But then again, if this was possible (or feasible), bigger brains than mine would have already thought of it!

[Ace-Garageguy]

I don't know if you've ever played with generators and motors, but to generate electricity from a rotating something, basically you have to pass a coil of wire through a magnetic field. Just like trying to push two magnet-ends of the same polarity together, there is physical force required to turn a winding through a field.

Take the bicycle generator you mentioned earlier. If you hold it in your hand and rotate it, you'll feel it doesn't turn perfectly freely, even if the bearings are perfect. In some of them, you can actually feel the magnetic field resisting the turning of the armature at specific points. If you do all of the power out /power in calculations, you'll find you actually get LESS energy out of the generator than it takes to turn it.

Again, this is all scaleable, and generators on the wheels of a car cannot produce more energy than it takes to turn them. Start with the energy it takes to drive the car down the road, add in the extra energy it would take to turn generators on the wheels, and you end up losing energy faster than you produce it.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy

[Harry P.]

Take the bicycle generator you mentioned earlier. If you hold it in your hand and rotate it, you'll feel it doesn't turn perfectly freely, even if the bearings are perfect. In some of them, you can actually feel the magnetic field resisting the turning of the armature at specific points. If you do all of the power out /power in calculations, you'll find you actually get LESS energy out of the generator than it takes to turn it.

I knew there was a reason it wasn't being done!

You're right, of course. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

[Ace-Garageguy]

I admit it's a fascinating idea, but the best we can hope to do, at least with our present understanding of physics, is to recover as much energy that's usually wasted and use it to propel the vehicle. You maybe saw the KERS (kinetic energy recovery system) installations on F1 cars...a mostly flywheel-based idea to recover kinetic energy normally wasted during braking.

[Scott Colmer]

A freind of mine is an engineer for a company that does electric car conversions. I tried all the angles with him that Harry tried (including a windmill type generator on a moving vehicle) and Skip explained the drawbacks pretty much the same way he did. (I drove his electric Mini Cooper. Pretty fun.)

I also asked about solar panels on the car itself. The yeild would be too low to do more than power and am radio on a regular car. But they would make for some cool racing stripes.

About home solor panels and night charging - some systems have batteries. The real benefit is that you can feed power back into the grid and build credit. Your best case scenario is a 0.00 bill. I'll take that and a 0.00 fuel bill all day, every day.

Scott